Tourney Solving for a structure problem - MTT with one rebuy and addon (1 Viewer)

[utgtrash]

I am hosting an MTT event and am trying to create a decent structure, with the obvious concern of speed vs gameplay. The parameters so far:

81 players, nine tables
1. each player can use up to 3 buyins at any time, so either as rebuys or addons.
2. I'm trying to decide if the buyins will get you 3k, 4k, or 5k in chips (9k, 12k, 15k potential chips)
3. I would guess the avg number of buyins for each player will be more than 2
4. we have to start with 25-50
5. 20 minute rounds
6. break after 6 rounds and rebuys addons end
7. We will have BB antes
8. trying to get to a final table within 4.5 hours, or 12 rounds with two 15 min breaks
9. once we are at final table, we can have slow the structure if players want, the time issue will be eased once we are at final table
10. would be good to not end up at the final table with micro stacks.

So the problem im solving for is, what is the best structure regarding gameplay we can have without totally missing the final table in 4.5 hours estimate? obviously the total chips and level structure are inter-dependent. any help is appreciated from people who know a hell of a lot more than me about directing a tourney.

Thank you!

 

[AlbinoDragon]

81 players, with re-buys and you want to be done in 5 hours???

I'm not sure that can be done without this being a turbo structure. Maybe if you scrap the re-buys and bring the levels down to 15 minutes you could get in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 hours.

I'll defer to the structure experts here. I've never run a tournament this big, but a 25-50 start with 10k starting chips and 16 player tournament I ran once many years ago ran just over 6 hours.

 

[MrCatPants]

I have some mtt hosting experience, but not as much as some on here. Couple thoughts -

Overall comment that arches over everything below - you want to limit your need for active administration of the tournament.

The 3 buyins for extremely short tournament stacks is odd. Also will be an administrative nightmare with so many players. How many tournament "staff" will be helping run this event? Would recommend a single 10k stack or something similar. And allow one rebuy if you need people to not be felted early - manage this through seating chips if you can - they would turn it in for a rebuy.

Who is going to move players as tables get unbalanced?

Dedicated dealers or are you expecting each table to be self dealt?

I'll let others chime in on blind structure - but it's going to be hard to get from 81 to 9 or 10 without mostly micro stacks in 4.5 hours.

 

[utgtrash]

so yes, but if say, each players only averaged 6k total (one rebuy starting with 3k stack) the total chips in play wouldn't be that much unfortunately. the solve would basically be, how many chips per buyin vs the level structure and yes, it's definitely a turbo.

 

[utgtrash]

I have some mtt hosting experience, but not as much as some on here. Couple thoughts -

Overall comment that arches over everything below - you want to limit your need for active administration of the tournament.

The 3 buyins for extremely short tournament stacks is odd. Also will be an administrative nightmare with so many players. How many tournament "staff" will be helping run this event? Would recommend a single 10k stack or something similar. And allow one rebuy if you need people to not be felted early - manage this through seating chips if you can - they would turn it in for a rebuy.

Who is going to move players as tables get unbalanced?

Dedicated dealers or are you expecting each table to be self dealt?

I'll let others chime in on blind structure - but it's going to be hard to get from 81 to 9 or 10 without mostly micro stacks in 4.5 hours.

the tournament is being run by a service that provides equipment and dealers, and administration. it will be something of a shit show yes but I do not have to try to service all of it myself. rebalancing tables etc will be done by the staff. sorry i did not include the logistics of the tournament itself. the OP is regarding chipstacks and levels and we can assume the logistics are taken care of hopefully.

 

[AlbinoDragon]

If I recall, when the blinds equal 10% the total chips in play is roughly when the tournament should end (if I have remembered wrong, PLEASE correct me), but assuming 6k total per player including re-buys x 81 players, that's roughly 500,000 in play. That would mean a 15k/30k level should be around tournament end.

Whatever structure you use would be ending around then, which should give you a rough idea where this would be going in terms of blind escalation (likely quite rapid) and level duration.

Again, I'll defer to structure specialists here for details, but I just wanted to provide another data point you can start considering.

 

[LotsOfChips]

If I recall, when the blinds equal 10% the total chips in play is roughly when the tournament should end (if I have remembered wrong, PLEASE correct me)

I’m pretty sure that the figure is chips in play = 20x BB (BB = 5% of chips in play)

 

[JustinInMN]

1. each player can use up to 3 buyins at any time, so either as rebuys or addons.
2. I'm trying to decide if the buyins will get you 3k, 4k, or 5k in chips (9k, 12k, 15k potential chips)
3. I would guess the avg number of buyins for each player will be more than 2

Okay so far so good, let's assume an average of 2.5 buyins per player.

4. we have to start with 25-50
5. 20 minute rounds

Okay, so if six hours is the parameter we know we have plan for 18 levels at 20 minutes each, with no breaks. My structure would be:

25-50, 25-75, 50-100, 50-100 (repeat and add BBA), 75-150, 100-200, 150-300
200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 1000-2000, 1500-3000,
2K-4K, 3K-6K, 4K-8K, 6K-12K, 10K-20K (18th level)

7. We will have BB antes

In a tournament without antes the rule of thumb is an ending when the BB is 1/20 of the chips in play. With the BBA, essentially meaning a second BB is put in the pot before deal, I would assume this figure could be as low as the BB representing between 1/30 and 1/40 of the chips in play.

So in round figures about 80 players x 2.5 entries each means about 200 entries.
We need the tournament to end at the 10K-20K level, so we need 20K to represent 1/40 of the chips in play or 800K.
800K/200 entries means each entry should be 4K to fit in 6 hours without breaks.

You can tweak the structure and add breaks as needed, but bottom line.
1) Figure out the final level base on your time restriction
2) Multiply the BB of the final level by 30 or 40 to get the desired total chips in play for BBA. (20 for no ante)
3) Divide that by the estimated entries, in this case about 200, that will get you your starting stack.

For example, if you are adding 40 minutes worth of breaks, you need the tournament instead to end on the 4K-8K level. So 8K * 40 is 320K/200 entries leaves a starting stack of only 1600.

So I think your only choices are really around 2K-4K depending on which levels you use, how long your breaks are, and so forth.

Hope this helps,

 

[utgtrash]

Okay so far so good, let's assume an average of 2.5 buyins per player.


Okay, so if six hours is the parameter we know we have plan for 18 levels at 20 minutes each, with no breaks. My structure would be:

25-50, 25-75, 50-100, 50-100 (repeat and add BBA), 75-150, 100-200, 150-300
200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 1000-2000, 1500-3000,
2K-4K, 3K-6K, 4K-8K, 6K-12K, 10K-20K (18th level)


In a tournament without antes the rule of thumb is an ending when the BB is 1/20 of the chips in play. With the BBA, essentially meaning a second BB is put in the pot before deal, I would assume this figure could be as low as the BB representing between 1/30 and 1/40 of the chips in play.

So in round figures about 80 players x 2.5 entries each means about 200 entries.
We need the tournament to end at the 10K-20K level, so we need 20K to represent 1/40 of the chips in play or 800K.
800K/200 entries means each entry should be 4K to fit in 6 hours without breaks.

You can tweak the structure and add breaks as needed, but bottom line.
1) Figure out the final level
2) Multiply the BB of the final level by 30 or 40 to get the desired total chips in play
3) Divide that by the estimated entries, in this case about 200, that will get you your starting stack.

So my instinct is 3K or 4K stacks are your best choices.

Hope this helps,

this is great thank you! we are going with a similar structure - we added a level somewhere maybe 800-1600 but close and settled on 3k. it is so if you buy in at starting at level 6 you will still have more than a microstack but ultimately end up at the same place. the 5% rule really helped a lot, probably wrapping this up at level 19ish.

i'm going to post some pics but probably blur out the shitty chips i'm sure we will be using.

Thanks to everyone who posted!

 

[JustinInMN]

we added a level somewhere maybe 800-1600

I do like using 800-1600 and 8K-16K levels myself, but if the tournament needs to faster, or time made for breaks, etc..., these are the first levels I would cut. (And cut them from my proposed structure on this tournament.)

I do like to build my structures on multiplying each chip in play by 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 and optionally adding 1-2 and 1-3 levels to the very start.

Another suggestion, 18 minute levels instead of 20 may be an option. Everyone should get to deal one hand per level still if hands average 2 minutes each and you get 5 levels in per 90 minutes, or 20 levels in for 6 hours.

 

[DeeVee8]

I would suggest 2k in chips for the buy-in/rebuys/add-ons. I go with 4% of the chips in play as a predictor of the end time. Using @JustinInMN schedule (I added a 25-25 start level to give players 80bb to start, and might have tweaked some levels to make it easier to chip race). I don't see any glaring leaps in levels with only a couple of 67%'ers.

Assuming an average of 2 buy-ins, 81*2k*2 means 324k chips in play. I would predict the end happens when there is 12,960 in the pot pre-flop. That would end your game around level 15, ending your game in 5 hrs (ish).

Also--give rebuys and add-ons either (2) 1k chips or (4) 500 chips, and let them make change. It will save you a ton of time racing off chips at the second break.

 

[DeeVee8]

I do like using 800-1600 and 8K-16K levels myself, but if the tournament needs to faster, or time made for breaks, etc..., these are the first levels I would cut. (And cut them from my proposed structure on this tournament.)

I do like to build my structures on multiplying each chip in play by 2-4, 3-6, 4-8, 6-12, 8-16 and optionally adding 1-2 and 1-3 levels to the very start.

Another suggestion, 18 minute levels instead of 20 may be an option. Everyone should get to deal one hand per level still if hands average 2 minutes each and you get 5 levels in per 90 minutes, or 20 levels in for 6 hours.

I agree that 18 would be the way to go. Assuming level 15 for an end, that's 4.5 hrs of play.

 

[utgtrash]

we settled on 3k buyins, up to 3 total (9k chips) and getting to 15k - 30k by level 20. This puts us at 5%bb at about 6:40. i estimate we can get to ft around hour 4-5, which more or less works. I definitely learned a lot from posting this thread, and thanks for the wisdom in shaping the structure for me!

 

[upNdown]

we settled on 3k buyins, up to 3 total (9k chips) and getting to 15k - 30k by level 20. This puts us at 5%bb at about 6:40. i estimate we can get to ft around hour 4-5, which more or less works. I definitely learned a lot from posting this thread, and thanks for the wisdom in shaping the structure for me!

FWIW, I’ve played in tournaments with a 3-bullet structure like this and I’ve done the math a few times and yes, in my experience the average player is in for more than 2 bullets.

 

[utgtrash]

FWIW, I’ve played in tournaments with a 3-bullet structure like this and I’ve done the math a few times and yes, in my experience the average player is in for more than 2 bullets.

yeah i basically solved for 3bullets/max buyins for everyone to get a long estimate, which still works. i'm guessing it'll be a bit shorter but the rough duration will be ok with players.