Straight w/redraw to the flush on the turn! (2 Viewers)

[gkitt80]

First time posting a hand for comment, so apologies if I screw something up. Here it goes:

Playing $1/$2. Hero is sitting on button with $300, small blind has Hero covered and Villain in MP has $260. Hero is dealt

Two early position limps, Villain raises to $14, cutoff calls, Hero calls, small blind and one limper call.

Pot = $74

Flop comes

SB & EP check, Villain bets $26, cutoff calls.

Hero? (apologies if this is obvious, but interested in getting thoughts on preflop call as well as what to do here before progressing).

 

[v1pe]

Probably folding pre, but as played I would just call the flop bet.

 

[BGinGA]

Fold pre-flop.

Call flop, and make a mental note to fold pre next time to save yourself $40.

 

[WedgeRock]

Two early position limps,

Um, blinds = $3 + two limpers. +$2 +$2 = $7.

Villain raises to $14

$7 + $14 = $21

cutoff calls, Hero calls, small blind and one limper call.

$21 + $14 + $14 + $13 + $12 = $74

Pot = $58

Unless your rake is $16, you've already lost me.

If you get to the flop, it's $26 to win $126, or about 5:1 odds. And if the SB or limper calls, you're getting 6:1 or 7:1 if they both call.

My 11 year old knows you have 8 outs, so you're about 3:1 to improve, so call.

Probably folding pre, as I don't like suited 9-gappers to a raise, but as played, I think it's a call.

 

[gkitt80]

I may have screwed up the math, so apologies, I typed this up quick at work from memory - should have done the math on paper before typing up the post. You are correct:

Villain $14
Cutoff $14
Hero $14
SB $14
BB $2
Limper #1 $2
Limper #2 $14

Will update OP

 

[WedgeRock]

The problem is that if you hit a straight, it's not the nut straight (if you hit an ace, 36 beats you; if you hit a 6, 37 beats you) and if you hit a flush, unless the As is in the board, you don't have the nut flush either.

Drawing to second nuts (or worse) against four to five other hands is not a good spot.

If you're up big on the night and willing to give some action, sure, what the hell. There is worse ways to blow $14...

BTW, your villain is weak.. he's not making people pay (enough) to draw to their hands.

 

[BGinGA]

Hitting a six also loses to 8 7, so none of Hero's eight straight outs are gin, and might be third-best even if neither one is a diamond (which might void the straight altogether).

I'd argue that 87 is a more likely holding here than 63 or 73, but then I'm folding K3 with position so who knows what else might be out there.

The more I think about it, I'm probably folding for almost 10% of my stack. There are better spots. Trying to hit the backdoor flush is likely to get expensive on the turn, and that's assuming there aren't going to be more raises on the flop action -- still two people left to act.

 

[gkitt80]

Ok so seems like consensus is fold pre-flop. In the moment, I made the call thinking I am playing from position, likely going to have 1-2 more callers behind and post-flop, unless I flop a monster, I can likely get away from it. I agree was loose, but as you said Wedgerock more of an action play than anything. Definitely a weak part of my game - I tend to over value position in these situations pre-flop.

Anyway, Hero calls, SB calls, EP folds.

Pot is $178

Turn brings a , board now is
SB checks, Villain checks, cutoff checks

Hero?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Welcome!

One thing that would help is information about the play styles of any key opponents.

That aside, calling $14 preflop in $1/$2 with $300 stacks is probably massively leaky. The implied odds just aren't there for that big a bet with this hand.

On the flop, you can make a loose call if you like. There's $74 + $26 = $100 in the pot, and it's only $26 to call. Although you won't have the nuts if you hit, you won't often be beaten either. It's thin, though. You can't really expect to get tons of action and still be ahead, and a straight will still be vulnerable, so it's a hand to play cautiously no matter the turn card.

 

[BGinGA]

With three opponents, gonna have to make the diamond draws, sets (if any), and over-pairs pay now to see the river. Hope that nobody has 87 and bet $130-140.

 

[Shaggy]

I'm in the same camp as the others regarding folding pre. I likely call the flop.

At this point, all three check. Its unlikely that a larger straight checked given the two flush draws present.

I'm betting $100, this will allow my remaining $120 (eff stack with villain) to be an easy river call as long as another diamond doesn't hit. I check behind in that situation. I fold to a SB donk bet (eff $160) if a diamond hits.

 

[DrStrange]

Fold preflop. K3s is a speculative hand, a dodgy one at that. Getting into a pot with an effective stack-to-pot ratio less than five is a mistake. The pot is so large / the stacks so small that we are solidly in top pair / good kicker territory. hero has little fold equity vs an over pair so he defaults to smashing the flop or being forced to fold.

The flop brings all sorts of possibilities. I would not fold, but I might raise vs a weak table or with a rocky table image. Raising cleans up hero's outs because naked big cards have a hard time continuing as do hands like 78. But with so many players in the pot I worry that Hero might have a serious reverse implied odds problem. I think calling is best, but could easily be persuaded to raise. It seems close to me. Call > jam > raise > fold. None of the options are terrible.

The lucky turn means Hero should shove. yes, there will be times hero is down to a flush draw to salvage the hand. But more often Hero will be free rolling with his flush draw.

DrStrange

some suggestions. Give time for the discussion to play out. Hours or days not minutes to hours.

Villain reads matter, as does Hero's table image.

villain stack sizing matters too if Hero has more chip than the lead villain.

 

[BGinGA]

There's $74 + $26 +26 = $126 in the pot, and it's only $26 to call.

FYP.

 

[WedgeRock]

When you play K3, you're hoping for a KK3 flop, two suited. Outside of that, you missed.

Even with a good flop and miracle turn you could be behind or even dead. I think there is value to checking it down. You're as good as you are now if a diamond and/or board pairing card doesn't fall in the river. Pot is already bloated. Be happy if you take it down, and fold the winning hand on some rivers as punishment for calling in the first place.

 

[v1pe]

Definitely betting turn for value. Yes, 78 beats you but I think it's very unlikely that gets checked to you. 37 is so very unlikely and we also block it, I think you can discount that combo entirely.

You can get called by any 7x (although there's probably not many) that now picked up an oesd or any diamond or worse spade draw. You might also get called by a sticky over pair.

There aren't too many bad river cards so I don't think you need to slam it. It looks like we are about $220 effective with main villain? I think $90-$110 is appropriate. Planning to shove any river that doesn't contain a diamond or pair the board.

 

[BGinGA]

When you play K3, you're hoping for a KK3 flop, two suited. Outside of that, you missed.

Grrrr..... that comment is way too close to home. Sometimes you need to be careful what you ask for.

Saturday's tournament: Hero has suited in the BB, about a T25K stack. Folds around to the loose and sticky unpredictable semi-maniac on the button, who min-raises to 1200 with a T11K+ stack (he min-raises pre-flop a lot, regardless of position). SB folds, I pitch in another 600 and see a flop.

And what a flop:



I check, villain bets 2000 at the 2700 pot. I smooth call.

Turn:

I check again, Villain bets 2000, somewhat standard move on his part to duplicate his flop bet (6700 pot). I smooth call again.

River:

10,700 in the pot. I lead out with 4000, hoping he has the flush (and not AK on the button). He tanks for two full minutes, then quietly announces all-in for another 6200. Pot = 20,900 with 6200 to call (and about 16K remaining in my stack). He'd make this play with almost any two clubs, 55, 99, AK, and AA. Maybe even with AQ, expecting me to fold trip Kings to the flush danger. Pot odds have no bearing in his decisions.

So I call, announcing Kings-Full. He turns over the .... and the . Ack. ACK.

Guess I should have tried to bounce him off his hand on the turn, but c'mon, a two-outer. And he's not folding with the nut flush draw, anyway -- he pays no attention to boat possibilities when the board is paired. I'm certain he took the two minutes to figure out that he actually had the second nuts, losing only to .

Went card-dead for the next 90 minutes, and never recovered. He bubbled in 5th place.

Sorry for the derail, but "you're hoping for a KK3 flop" hit a raw nerve.

 

[WedgeRock]

Fold pre.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I'm on board with everyone who's saying to shove the turn. If someone else has a better straight, it will be hard to get away from no matter what, but shoving here embraces the freeroll against anyone else holding a 3.

 

[Payback]

Fold pre. I'm all for playing this hand on the button for a limp, but not for a raise.

Flop. I call but am not happy about it.

Turn. I'm jamming. I want any 7 or dia/dia out, but I also know that at 1/2 someone is probably still calling with some garbage draw anyways so imo charge the max.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I would fold preflop.

i would fold post flop. Your 8 outs may not even be a winner when there is a higher straight potential and a diamond flush.

 

[Pesto628]

Just like everyone else says fold pre. This hand is bad.

As played I only call that flop because of the odds you are getting. Any higher and I probably fold because you aren’t even drawing to close to the nut hand. So call.

I don’t really like a shove on the turn because you are folding out too many hands you beat. It’s ok to let someone continue with a draw as long as you don’t give them good odds for it. Bet $130-140 to hopefully get heads up and call any shove and shove any non-diamond river.

 

[Pesto628]

Not too worried about someone having a better straight at this point because they would be raising with this draw-heavy board

 

[gkitt80]

Thanks for all the input everyone. Continuing the hand:

Playing $1/$2. Hero is sitting on button with $300, small blind has Hero covered and Villain in MP has $260. Hero is dealt

Two early position limps, Villain raises to $14, cutoff calls, Hero calls, small blind and one limper call.

Pot = $74

Flop comes

SB & EP check, Villain bets $26, cutoff calls. Hero calls, SB calls, EP folds.

Pot is $178

Turn brings a , board now is

SB checks, Villain checks, cutoff checks, Hero bets $80 for value - in hindsight I think this is light, but thinking in the moment was wanted to charge a good amount for diamond (and unlikely spade) draws while keeping them in the pot.

Small blind calls $80, Villain tanks for about a minute and announces all in for $220, cutoff folds. Pot is $558 at this point. Hero has $180 left. SB has Hero covered.

Hero? Any chance a fold is appropriate here (likely a stupid question)? How about a call vs. push with the SB left to act?

 

[Jimulacrum]

Easy shove. If you lose, you lose, but you can't get this invested up to this point with such a strong hand and then fold. SB could easily have a flush draw or a bare seven, and you're probably freerolling Villain with a trey and no redraw. Even if you're behind, you will almost always have the spade outs.

(This is part of the reason you fold K3s preflop, though. It's a hand whose most reasonable potential for strength lies in second-nut and worse hands. You will frequently find yourself in spots where a fold is probably not the right play, but you're not super-confident that you're ahead either.)

 

[BGinGA]

^ This.

 

[v1pe]

Bet all the chips.

 

[gkitt80]

Playing $1/$2. Hero is sitting on button with $300, small blind has Hero covered and Villain in MP has $260. Hero is dealt

Two early position limps, Villain raises to $14, cutoff calls, Hero calls, small blind and one limper call.

Pot = $74

Flop comes

SB & EP check, Villain bets $26, cutoff calls. Hero calls, SB calls, EP folds.

Pot is $178

Turn brings a , board now is

SB checks, Villain checks, cutoff checks, Hero bets $80 for value - in hindsight I think this is light, but thinking in the moment was wanted to charge a good amount for diamond (and unlikely spade) draws while keeping them in the pot.

Small blind calls $80, Villain tanks for about a minute and announces all in for $220, cutoff folds. Pot is $558 at this point. Hero has $180 left. SB has Hero covered.

Hero pushes All-in for remaining $180. SB Folds. River brings a , board is now , Villain turns over for the nut flush and takes the pot down.

Anyways, thank you all for the input. As you can tell still working on my pre-flop game/thought process. I am going to use this board a lot more now cause I really feel like I learned a lot this being my first hand posting. Thanks again!

 

[Jimulacrum]

You were 77.27% when the money went in. Not a bad spot, and your flop play was reasonable too. Really just the preflop game that needs work, as you're recognizing.

In general, facing a 7xBB preflop raise with 150 BB effective, you want to be whittling your range down to much stronger hands than K3s. There are some spots where you can play that hand, even against a raise, but it's situational and very marginal. You could fold it every time you get it, and you'd avoid a lot of tricky, expensive spots and wouldn't be missing much the few times it's playable.

 

[Gobbs]

Nothing new to say...agree, if you're going to play K3 pre-flop, you had better be a heck of a post-flop player.

 

[Lemonzest]

Just my 2c. I think a squeeze play on the button with a hand like K3 or similar isn't bad. After 2 people limp you can make a raise on the button to isolate. It is a risky play and you are just playing position here and punishing the limpers. It is not a play necessarily based on the strength of your hand.

You could do this with 79 offsuit or 8,10 suited. You are bluffing before the hand even starts and repping a stronger hand. You are hoping to get heads up with a plan to bet almost any flop and turn.

You can do this against people that play fit or fold and won't play back at you.

Welcome to the wonderful world of LAG.