Switching Away From Dealer's Choice (3 Viewers)

[Moxie Mike]

Context: I host a regular mixed game cash session every 2 weeks. We usually play $4-$8 FL with a 1/2 kill on flop games using Lake Elsinore $2s as the workhorse chips; occasionally we'll drop the stakes down to $3-$6 using $3 Garden City Paulsons or $1/$1 PL playing with a mixed THC set. @GrindstonePoker is a regular.

For the longest time, we would play dealer's choice by orbit, or 5 deals of each game if we were more than 5-handed. This became inefficient as we added more and more games and keeping track of how many deals of each game played was cumbersome.

So we've switched to a fixed rotation using a Google slideshow.

The dedicated dealer controls the slideshow using a Bluetooth number pad attached to a PC everyone can see.

This solved 3 lingering issues with the old dealer's choice format:

1) Grouping similar games together allows the dealer and players to get into a rhythm;

2) No more holding the game up by indecisive players when it's their turn to pick a game;

3) No more explaining the game over and over to players who irritatingly forget how to play Draw2maha even though we just played it 5 times an hour before.

Anyhow, I thought I'd share the slideshow in case anyone wants to check it out. And if you want to use it for your own purposes, send me a PM and I'll create a copy and share it with you.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/10Csl7Z0HiyzUR_SOpezME5J4cPhQ7JUlZ6VGJFYkagg/edit

Requisite Pron:

 

[GrindstonePoker]

I'm a huge fan of the format change.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I'll admit it - for someone who is familiar with circus games, your presentation confused the shit out of me.

Yes, some players need to think a bit to pick their game. There are cards available that allow them to read (learn) and decide. If your group isn't grasping the game changes very well, you are simply taking advantage of them by switching the games on them so rapidly.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I definitely prefer a fixed rotation of games each night (mixing the games in the rotation from game to game). But why not play a full orbit of each game, or if you are short handed (under 5 players) 2 orbits of each game? Not getting to be the dealer for each games seems odd.

 

[GrindstonePoker]

Having played in this very game I'll fully admit that I am most definitely in the lower tier of skill and experience that @Moxie Mike assembles. I don't have the feeling that it's set up to take advantage of anyone. There are so many different variants to some fun games and the way it's assembled it gives you an opportunity to play more of them.

This is just my impression, and he can correct me if I'm wrong but as a good host he has a feel for what games work better with this crowd for flow, fun and action. Floating what's worked for his game is just a tool to try. I have actually taken this idea with my hometown group and had positive feedback. I didn't use game for game the exact setup, I made the changes I felt fit that group.

Also, he polls us as the players on what we think/thought of the way things are set up so that future tweaks can be made.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I'll admit it - for someone who is familiar with circus games, your presentation confused the shit out of me.

Can you please elaborate on what specifically you found confusing?

Yes, some players need to think a bit to pick their game. There are cards available that allow them to read (learn) and decide.

I don't have any placards - I thought about it but a stack of 40+ of them just seemed cumbersome. Alternatively, I have a 2-sided typed printout that I keep near the table, which is also available as a PDF for anyone who wants to review ahead of the game. If you'd like to see it, send me a PM.

If your group isn't grasping the game changes very well, you are simply taking advantage of them by switching the games on them so rapidly.

Everyone is familiar with the game variants - it's largely the same group of players every week. No one is being taken advantage of. We even occasionally host a micro-stakes game where the more experienced players will talk strategy and table their hands in order to help newer people learn and become comfortable.

The most inexperienced person at the table is usually the dedicated dealer, who is a former holdem dealer at a nearby casino. She's competent, but it took her a little while to grasp 1) fixed limit/stud/draw games; and 2) all the crazy variations to keep track of.

I definitely prefer a fixed rotation of games each night (mixing the games in the rotation from game to game). But why not play a full orbit of each game, or if you are short handed (under 5 players) 2 orbits of each game? Not getting to be the dealer for each games seems odd.

If we're five handed we'll play a full orbit (actually 6 deals) - in fact the dealer button coincides with the dealer's choice button (when the format was DC) so whomever calls the game gets to be the dealer 2x. The problem is when you get beyond 5 players some of the games can take several mins per deal, like stud and draw games. Furthermore, the triple draw games really can't be played more than 6-handed so someone has to sit out. We play on Tuesday nights and have a hard stop at 11:30 pm, so capping the rotation at 5 deals ensure that we'll play every game at least once.

We often have 8 or 9 players at the table - so we could conceivably have the same game dealt for 45 mins if we did a full orbit. That's not really in the best interest of the game.

Having played in this very game I'll fully admit that I am most definitely in the lower tier of skill and experience that @Moxie Mike assembles. I don't have the feeling that it's set up to take advantage of anyone. There are so many different variants to some fun games and the way it's assembled it gives you an opportunity to play more of them.

This is just my impression, and he can correct me if I'm wrong but as a good host he has a feel for what games work better with this crowd for flow, fun and action. Floating what's worked for his game is just a tool to try. I have actually taken this idea with my hometown group and had positive feedback. I didn't use game for game the exact setup, I made the changes I felt fit that group.

Also, he polls us as the players on what we think/thought of the way things are set up so that future tweaks can be made.

I appreciate the support, brother.

 

[Machine]

Can you please elaborate on what specifically you found confusing?

There are three things that I find confusing about the slides.

First, I think they are great and I love the idea. I also like the color contrast, and the bifurcation of Flop / Drawl, great job.

suggestions - I would never deal a game 5 times, play a full orbit (aka 8 times (should be a max of 7 right?)) - I would guess this isn't going to change but others might mirror your setup because its really nice! and if they start with 8 times, its more of an old school thing as well.

On draw games I would have the dealer have chips as markers for the drawl, I wouldn't put that on the slide. I wouldn't want the players or the dealer to focus on the slides

Personally I would want to call the game, so I'd also prefer a default game rotation if someone was indecisive, otherwise My game!


You could create a new google slide to highlight all the games and toss it on an ipad or something to pass around.

 

[buffalojim]

Hello there.

Nice telecaster too, beautiful room.

 

[bmacpoker]

I'm just in the opening steps of introducing mixed games to my group. If we have a regular NLH night, I ask ahead of time if we are OK with including mixed games. Instead of dealer's choice, I have a randomizer with all the games. We have a couple of options, either set a timer and when it goes off, dealer gets to push the randomizer button and we run the game for an orbit. Or when the group is smaller and we are messing around, I have a randomizer list that leans NLH so we're playing it half the time and we change it every orbit.

This is good for a small group that is still getting used to the games. Eventually I'd prefer to have a mixed games night with a fixed rotation. I've never been fond of dealer's choice, unless it's a tournament.

 

[GrindstonePoker]

Ultimately it’s up to what works best for individual groups. My friend’s I dubbed the Wild West because they played “mix” games (typically was only Omaha, 7 Stud and Pineapple) all no limit. Nothing is as insane as calling a $50 all in shove on the bring in bet.

My philosophy is to observe how others do it, then take bits and pieces that work well and craft something for my specific setting I know will be enjoyable.

I have since tamed the Wild West and opened their eyes to a whole world of fun new games. The benefit I’ve found with a set rotation is we don’t end up playing the same game 5 or 6 times in a night.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Can you please elaborate on what specifically you found confusing?

I don't have any placards - I thought about it but a stack of 40+ of them just seemed cumbersome. Alternatively, I have a 2-sided typed printout that I keep near the table, which is also available as a PDF for anyone who wants to review ahead of the game. If you'd like to see it, send me a PM.

Everyone is familiar with the game variants - it's largely the same group of players every week. No one is being taken advantage of. We even occasionally host a micro-stakes game where the more experienced players will talk strategy and table their hands in order to help newer people learn and become comfortable.

The most inexperienced person at the table is usually the dedicated dealer, who is a former holdem dealer at a nearby casino. She's competent, but it took her a little while to grasp 1) fixed limit/stud/draw games; and 2) all the crazy variations to keep track of.

If we're five handed we'll play a full orbit (actually 6 deals) - in fact the dealer button coincides with the dealer's choice button (when the format was DC) so whomever calls the game gets to be the dealer 2x. The problem is when you get beyond 5 players some of the games can take several mins per deal, like stud and draw games. Furthermore, the triple draw games really can't be played more than 6-handed so someone has to sit out. We play on Tuesday nights and have a hard stop at 11:30 pm, so capping the rotation at 5 deals ensure that we'll play every game at least once.

We often have 8 or 9 players at the table - so we could conceivably have the same game dealt for 45 mins if we did a full orbit. That's not really in the best interest of the game.

I appreciate the support, brother.

It took me a couple times flipping through the Powerpoint to figure out that you were tracking each street of the draw games. Abby's cards are just more concise (for me). I'm a visual learner, not a "oh boy, a Powerpoint slide I can read" kind of person. I'm definitely not into reading a PDF at the table. You have also added twists to most of the circus games. Nothing really bizarre, but DOUBLE-BOARD BIG-O HI/LO are you quartering every pot? Is there a qualifier on the low?

However, once @GrindstonePoker chimed in, I thought, "if it works, don't break it". Your group may be different, but if this is how they like it, stick with it.

I've had pushback in my mixed games with a fixed rotation. Much like those here that voiced that they prefer to pick their game, my group also prefers to choose their own poison. The mixed game cards are not cumbersome, and once the SB folds they can start digging through the deck to have their game ready when it is their turn to choose.

Still, not a fan of the partial orbit. You stated your reasoning, but that does not make me like it. But I'm not in your game, so my opinion really doesn't matter. Again, if it's working for your group, it works.

 

[Moxie Mike]

It took me a couple times flipping through the Powerpoint to figure out that you were tracking each street of the draw games.

This is a new thing I just put in for tomorrow's session. We'll see how it goes - it was mostly born out of trying to avoid constantly reminding a couple regs which draw we're on. This is of course contingent with the dealer remembering to hit the button after each betting round.

You have also added twists to most of the circus games. Nothing really bizarre, but DOUBLE-BOARD BIG-O HI/LO are you quartering every pot? Is there a qualifier on the low?

No... it's one winner for hi and lo. You just have two boards to work with. It has gotten briefly confusing when a low is possible on both boards (yes it's 8 or better) , but it's generally not an issue.

I've had pushback in my mixed games with a fixed rotation. Much like those here that voiced that they prefer to pick their game, my group also prefers to choose their own poison. The mixed game cards are not cumbersome, and once the SB folds they can start digging through the deck to have their game ready when it is their turn to choose.

We hit every game & variation people tend to call throughout the course of the night. With the rotation, we're guaranteed to play every game at least once. So far no one has expressed a preference of going back to dealer's choice because their favorite game didn't get called.

 

[Machine]

Nothing really bizarre, but DOUBLE-BOARD BIG-O HI/LO are you quartering every pot? Is there a qualifier on the low?

No... it's one winner for hi and lo. You just have two boards to work with. It has gotten briefly confusing when a low is possible on both boards (yes it's 8 or better) , but it's generally not an issue.

At the meet ups it’s typically referred to BigO double board ultimate hi ultimate low

 

[Moxie Mike]

Here's a quick update if anyone is interested:

We played on Tuesday and a couple of regs who'd been out for a while were able to join us. Everyone thought the new format was an improvement.

The person who probably benefits the most is the dealer, who is still learning the games. Having the slides on a 32" monitor she can see clearly seems to be very helpful.

The draw game slides with the auditory cues indicating which draw we're on were well received. As such, I'll be adding audio to all slides.

The order of the games needs some more tweaking... but overall it went well.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I questioned the order of the games, but chose not to comment, as that would be personal preference. I'm glad it worked well.

 

[OzzieJim]

I have been shipping SORBET as a mix rotation.

Stud
Omaha 8
Razz
Badugi
Stud 8
2-7 Triple Draw

Separates the Stud/Draw games and eliminates Holdem. Easy to remember acronym.

Would like to add Drawmaha, Badeucey and/or Archie but need a new acronym!

 

[bmacpoker]

I have been shipping SORBET as a mix rotation.

Stud
Omaha 8
Razz
Badugi
Stud 8
2-7 Triple Draw

Separates the Stud/Draw games and eliminates Holdem. Easy to remember acronym.

Would like to add Drawmaha, Badeucey and/or Archie but need a new acronym!

This is pretty close to my lineup! I do also have Big O in there. And sometimes I get groans about any hi/lo games being in there.

 

[Sparkynutz]

I'm in the other boat. Dealers choice. Played one time by the dealer then next dealer picks a new game. We frequently play the same game or a variation of it as the deal orbits the table. All our games ate easy to learn tho. Don't grasp the game or like it then fold right away and you're only out 25c.

 

[OzzieJim]

I'm in the other boat. Dealers choice. Played one time by the dealer then next dealer picks a new game. We frequently play the same game or a variation of it as the deal orbits the table. All our games ate easy to learn tho. Don't grasp the game or like it then fold right away and you're only out 25c.

The problem with playing 1 hand per game is the dealer is heavily incentivised to choose games that favour position. You'd have rocks in your head to call stud games when you could be in the God seat for Draw or Flop games.

 

[Natskule]

The problem with playing 1 hand per game is the dealer is heavily incentivised to choose games that favour position. You'd have rocks in your head to call stud games when you could be in the God seat for Draw or Flop games.

Only if you are looking to take advantage of your friends. The folks I play with pick games that they want to play, not necessarily games that give them an advantage.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Only if you are looking to take advantage of your friends. The folks I play with pick games that they want to play, not necessarily games that give them an advantage.

I admit I don't play my "best" poker with friends, but even I would never call a stud game in a "one and done" game. I like stud, but I like other games as well, so there's no incentive to call a game that is -EV.

If your players are recreational enough that nobody "plays position", then fine, otherwise I prefer "orbit+1".

 

[OzzieJim]

It’s not taking advantage of your friends to try to win the most pots. Competition is what makes the game fun.

By this logic friends wouldn’t ever check raise or slow play or Mississippi straddle.

I make the secondary observation that “the games they want to play” usually means “the games they play better than the rest of the table”

If you’re trying to win and you are guaranteed position, take it. If you’re not trying to win - come play at my house!

 

[Natskule]

I try and win every hand as well. But I'm not calling a game just because I have a positional advantage on them. I also don't strategize where I sit and just take what's open, even though it would be a big advantage to sit behind a couple of people. I'll check raise and slow play and anything else, all's fair once the cards are dealt, but before the deal I want it as fair as possible.

All that said, I prefer dealer's choice as a whole orbit over truly dealer's choice, as I think that is a better way to do it.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Orbit + 1 is the only way. Thx for sharing your experience and game @Moxie Mike

 

[RadicusScout]

In our next game we're going to try Orbit +1 where on the +1 we bomb pot. Should be shenanigans considering we're going to be playing a bunch of new games.

 

[Sparkynutz]

Some games go over well some don't. Forcing a full orbit on games nobody else wants to play is pointless.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Some games go over well some don't. Forcing a full orbit on games nobody else wants to play is pointless.

While some games don't go over as well as others, some games (Scarney, Badugi) takes more than 1 hand to even grasp the nuisances to the strategy. If you just move on, the quality of some games will simply be lost.

That said, maybe this needs a poll. I'd be happy to play Dealers choice changing every hand, every orbit (changing on the 1 seat for example), or Orbit+1. I think every hand would be my least preferred for a couple reasons, but it would not be a reason to pass on an invite.

 

[Sparkynutz]

While some games don't go over as well as others, some games (Scarney, Badugi) takes more than 1 hand to even grasp the nuisances to the strategy. If you just move on, the quality of some games will simply be lost.

That said, maybe this needs a poll. I'd be happy to play Dealers choice changing every hand, every orbit (changing on the 1 seat for example), or Orbit+1. I think every hand would be my least preferred for a couple reasons, but it would not be a reason to pass on an invite.

If a game needs more than 1 hand then hope more people pick it to play or play it again your next deal. Or ask the table their thoughts. Sometimes we just start a holdem tournament. Other times we start a roulette tournament or Horse racing Tournament. As long majority agrees with what's done that all that really matters instead of always having rules that sometimes don't make sense to 100% of the time apply.

 

[Poker Zombie]

If a game needs more than 1 hand then hope more people pick it to play or play it again your next deal. Or ask the table their thoughts. Sometimes we just start a holdem tournament. Other times we start a roulette tournament or Horse racing Tournament. As long majority agrees with what's done that all that really matters instead of always having rules that sometimes don't make sense to 100% of the time apply.

That might work for smaller groups. I've got people coming in from hundreds of miles away, and filling 3 tables. I like to make everything as easy and predictable as possible.

Obviously, if you have a close-knit group of regulars that are already well-versed in atypical gaming, then you are not doing anything wrong. I wouldn't suggest it for someone whose group is less comfortable with the different variants, and "hope" someone else calls the same game that was difficult to grasp, or use my pick 8 times to give a good game the attention it deserves (and "hope" that playing a particular game once every 8 hands begins to click).

 

[Moxie Mike]

I made some upgrades to the slide show, as well as an easter egg in the first break slide if anyone wants to check it out.

https://docs.google.com/presentatio...lZ6VGJFYkagg/edit#slide=id.g266eb41c2bb_0_259