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Tom Brady isn't the GOAT (2 Viewers)

RainmanTrail

RainmanTrail

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Tom Brady doesn't even crack my top 3 QBs of all time list, maybe not even my top 5. No, I'm not joking.

If you think Tom Brady is the greatest of all time, then you better also be ready to defend Kareem Abdul-Jabbar as the greatest basketball player of all time (and Jabbar has a better argument as the basketball GOAT than Brady has in football IMO).

Bring out the pitch forks...
 
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Sorry guys it must be tough living under the rule of Tom & Bill for the past 20 years. I would be mad too. :D
 
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Never heard of him. The football GOAT is either Pelé or Messi. Some people claim Christina Ronaldo (not a typo), although I feel that to be a GOAT you can't take dives as frequently as he does.

Or are you perhaps referring to this padded version of rugby where the players stand around discussing tactics for 3 hours? :sneaky:
 
Mr Winberg said:
Never heard of him. The football GOAT is either Pelé or Messi. Some people claim Christina Ronaldo (not a typo), although I feel that to be a GOAT you can't take dives as frequently as he does.

Or are you perhaps referring to this padded version of rugby where the players stand around discussing tactics for 3 hours? :sneaky:
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The one where falling down and rolling around on the ground pretending to be hurt isn’t part of the strategy :whistle: :whistling:
 
#1 is Elway for those ramshackle teams he single handedly took to his first three Super Bowls.

i have Manning and Brady equal. When Brady was out, his team still won lots of games. When Manning was out, his team was a bottom dweller.
 
Mr Winberg said:
Never heard of him. The football GOAT is either Pelé or Messi. Some people claim Christina Ronaldo (not a typo), although I feel that to be a GOAT you can't take dives as frequently as he does.

Or are you perhaps referring to this padded version of rugby where the players stand around discussing tactics for 3 hours? :sneaky:
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They call it football but throw the ball ?
Confused :D
 
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RocAFella1 said:
Explain throw-ins then. :p
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You have a point there...but since the sixties there has been sooo many test-project (on all levels of the game) to replace throw-in with kick-in on the sideline (like a corner). Because this would be the most logical choice...FIFA never went on with it..typical FIFA.
 
Wow I didn't know all the Californians hated the Pats so much. Must be because we beat the Rams in the SB.... twice. Did you guys watch SBs 49 and 51? And don't tell me that Tom didn't do shit in 49 when he put 14 unanswered points up in the 4th quarter against an all time defensive unit. Manning was a better overall talent than Tom, he's never been the most talented arm in the NFL, but the dude is a downright winner. For the above comment about Manning, being an equal to him, you can gladly have Manning because as an NFL team owner I would prefer having a QB who brings my franchise 6 Lombardis. Don't tell me Manning wasn't riding the coat tails of a generational defense in 2015. Also in 08 when they went 11-5 without him, the offense was insane and was the same team that went 18-0 only to blow the Super Bowl. Any argument that includes the word cheating as its base of why the Patriots aren't good or Tom sucks is also complete trash.

Doesn't matter to anyone in New England as to what number you have Brady on your all time QB list. Im just happy that I got to witness the winningest QB and HD Coach duo and the most dominant 20 year stretch in almost any American sports history which resulted in and NFL records 6 rings. As a Boston sports fan its an easy choice for me though. Definitely some bias, but by not putting him in your top 5 seems like some bias too lol.
 
He might be #5? We could debate #4, but there's just no scenario whatsoever that he's top 3.
 
FDLmold said:
#1 is Elway for those ramshackle teams he single handedly took to his first three Super Bowls.

i have Manning and Brady equal. When Brady was out, his team still won lots of games. When Manning was out, his team was a bottom dweller.
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How can you possibly have them equal?

Manning 7x 1st team all pro
Brady 3x, one of which was ridiculous

Manning 5x MVP
Brady 3x MVP (including the 2018 WTF??? MVP where he wasn't even a top 5 QB that season in any category, but got the award because, hey, Tom Brady! And one of his other MVPs probably should have gone to the guy he was throwing to, Randy Moss)

Manning best QB rating in the league 6x
Brady 2x (once with Randy Moss catching balls in his prime)

Manning had a higher completion % than Brady pretty much every year, and more passing yards, and more TDs almost every year as well.

There's really only one argument for Brady being better, which is rings. And he didn't get those by himself. If he leads Tampa Bay to a super bowl ring this season, then maybe I'll need to reevaluate my position. But so far, every data point there is says Manning isn't just better, he was a lot better. Look at Indy games without Manning and Pats games without Brady.

A few years back, I built some multilevel models, and Brady added about 0.5 wins to the Patriots win expectations. Manning was worth over 2 wins to the Colts.
 
Tarheel4Life said:
Who are your top 5? I assume you’re going solely by mathematical stats and not ability to be clutch in big games and lead teams to championships.
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Manning, Rogers, Montana, Elway, and Young are all better than Brady IMO, and Russell Wilson and Mahomes are on track to be better too, though time will tell.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is great, but longevity and rings don't automatically make someone the GOAT in my eyes. If that's the only thing that matters to you, then you're welcome to that opinion, but you'd better think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player too if that's your opinion. I just find it so strange how many people think Brady is the GOAT simply because of rings, but you almost never hear the Kareem argument for basketball. They have the exact same argument for GOATs in my eyes.

For anyone who plays fantasy football, have you ever had a single draft year where Tom Brady was the first QB taken? Ever? I've never seen a single draft in 20 years where he was. Usually not even top 3.

If being the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best QB in the league every year for 20 years makes someone the GOAT, then I guess he's the GOAT. But I prefer that the guy I consider to be the GOAT at least be the best QB in the league for at least 5 seasons or more. Brady has never once been the best QB in the league. The closest he came was when he had Randy Moss catching passes in his prime.
 
sheikh617 said:
Wow I didn't know all the Californians hated the Pats so much. Must be because we beat the Rams in the SB.... twice. Did you guys watch SBs 49 and 51? And don't tell me that Tom didn't do shit in 49 when he put 14 unanswered points up in the 4th quarter against an all time defensive unit. Manning was a better overall talent than Tom, he's never been the most talented arm in the NFL, but the dude is a downright winner. For the above comment about Manning, being an equal to him, you can gladly have Manning because as an NFL team owner I would prefer having a QB who brings my franchise 6 Lombardis. Don't tell me Manning wasn't riding the coat tails of a generational defense in 2015. Also in 08 when they went 11-5 without him, the offense was insane and was the same team that went 18-0 only to blow the Super Bowl. Any argument that includes the word cheating as its base of why the Patriots aren't good or Tom sucks is also complete trash.

Doesn't matter to anyone in New England as to what number you have Brady on your all time QB list. Im just happy that I got to witness the winningest QB and HD Coach duo and the most dominant 20 year stretch in almost any American sports history which resulted in and NFL records 6 rings. As a Boston sports fan its an easy choice for me though. Definitely some bias, but by not putting him in your top 5 seems like some bias too lol.
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It's not about hating the Pats for me. They are hands down the greatest NFL franchise in history. They're impressive, and Brady is great. I just think that a lot more of that success was due to Belichick and the system than they get credit for.

There's an alleged story that Brady once told his offensive coordinator that if the Pats had Aaron Rodgers instead of him that they'd never lose.
 
Also, the importance of an offensive line is difficult to exaggerate, and Brady was almost always behind one of the best offensive lines in the league every year.

I remember when Shaun Alexander broke the NFL record for rushing TDs in a season and won the MVP along with it. In the off season, the Seahawks traded away two all pro offensive linemen, then the next season Alexander was so bad that they literally cut him afterward. Lol.

Could you imagine Tom Brady throwing behind any of the Seahawk's offensive lines in the Russell Wilson era? Lol. He would get absolutely destroyed every game. Sacked 10x per game.
 
RainmanTrail said:
.... longevity and rings don't automatically make someone the GOAT in my eyes. If that's the only thing that matters to you....
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It's very difficult to assess individual greatness in a team sport like football (much easier in baseball, for example).

That said, as a Patsy hater, I like Brady (and Belichik, who learned his trade with the Giants).

But if you gave me a choice of QBs to start a team, I'd take Dan Marino every single time. Best passer I've ever seen, by a lot.
 
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The best QB of all time is Lamar Jackson, I don't care if he is down from his performance from last year and its only based on one season and he has never won a superbowl. If you don't agree with me you are wrong.
 
RainmanTrail said:
For anyone who plays fantasy football, have you ever had a single draft year where Tom Brady was the first QB taken? Ever? I've never seen a single draft in 20 years where he was. Usually not even top 3.
I
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I was in one where I believe he was the first might have even been #1 overall but at least first round. That was also the season he got hurt. Which I believe was the year after he had Moss.
 
Tom Brady's greatness is not measured in individual statistical categories. As Mo mentioned above, he just wins. He finds a way. He throws to anyone to get the job done and he had some awful WRs to throw to in his years. It was his smarts, his clutch performances over and over, his ability to get all this done with concrete shoes on (he could never rely on his legs to get him out of situations). He was/is a student of the game. He knew his short-comings and made up for it in other ways. It's the reason why he wasn't drafted until the 6th round...his standard football measurable statistics aren't going to win any awards.
 
I think it’s weird to use the teams too heavily to argue for or against all time rankings. I mean, Jamarcus Russel could throw end zone from the opposite 20 yard line on his knees, he obviously was the best, he just went to Oakland instead of NE/IN/GB.

I feel like Brady is the ultimate game manager, most games/years you’re not going to win purely on his arm. But he’s undoubtedly half of the most successful QB/Coach duo ever.

Not sure where he ends up on ranking all time.
 

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