Tom Brady isn't the GOAT (4 Viewers)

[pacmartine]

If this is the basis for your argument, why Kareem and not Bill Russell?

A lot of the other stats cut strongly toward Kareem. Russell was never Finals MVP and Kareem was all defensive team 11 years to Russell's 1, just to name a couple.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kareem_abdul_jabbar_vs_bill_russell.htm

 

[upNdown]

Russell was never Finals MVP

I wonder if racism was an influence there? Maybe there was always somebody better; I don't know much about the celtics of that era

 

[RocAFella1]

Is he a winner? Yea I’ll say he is. But three of those SB rings were essentially given to him.
2001 - Tuck Rule: Brady himself admitted he thought it was a fumble. I always wonder in an alternate universe where that was ruled a fumble, does Brady become the Brady that we know today?
2015 - Malcom Butler: Did Brady play a good game? Sure, but Seattle threw that game away.
2017 -

 

[monkeydog]

Is that how you decide who the best punter is too...how many championships? Best center? Best nose tackle?

The QB does have measurable leverage, but you simply cannot ignore the team aspect.

And good QBs make those around them seem better, because they use the offense better. The receivers seem more open because the ball is timed better in the route. The line seems better because the mobile QB forces the pass rush to be a little more conservative. I’m not convinced KC’s offense is as stacked as y’all think it is, look at what’s going on at RB.

If they were the leader of the team, yes. QB is more than just a player and stat machine. They lead the team.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Here's a cool statistic. In Tom Brady's 18 seasons as Patriots starting QB, he led his team to 13 Conference Championship games, and 9 Superbowls.

Lebron 16 years, 11 Conf. Championships, won 10 of those. Without the coaches or same team/system. Not disagreeing with you on your cool statistic, I just like that this whole thread is secretly a nod towards Lebron being the best

 

[ssanel54]

A lot of the other stats cut strongly toward Kareem. Russell was never Finals MVP and Kareem was all defensive team 11 years to Russell's 1, just to name a couple.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/kareem_abdul_jabbar_vs_bill_russell.htm

But that is the opposite of what he is arguing. If Brady is the Goat in Football, then KAJ is the Goat in basketball?

 

[pacmartine]

But that is the opposite of what he is arguing. If Brady is the Goat in Football, then KAJ is the Goat in basketball?

I was confused as well which is why I asked.

 

[pacmartine]

Lebron 16 years, 11 Conf. Championships, won 10 of those. Without the coaches or same team/system. Not disagreeing with you on your cool statistic, I just like that this whole thread is secretly a nod towards Lebron being the best

Jordan is the GOAT.

Even comparing stat monsters like Kareem and Lebron, you still have contend that basketball rules were changed to limit Kareem because he was so good, and rules were changed that improve Lebron's game despite him being more physically gifted.

 

[BarrieJ3]

I’m not convinced KC’s offense is as stacked as y’all think it is, look at what’s going on at RB.

I'm very confused by this. I don't like KC, I'm a Raiders fan.

They're offensive strategy is fantastic. They have the most feared Jet Sweep in the league, so what do they do? Randomly move away from it for entire games, running misdirections and reverses. They can utilize their RB, TE, and WRs in any of those 3 positions, so have fun game planning for that.

They have arguably the scariest deep threat in the league (if not 1, at least top 3) and have arguably the scariest TE in the league (if not 1, than at least top 2).

The offensive line was hurt and depleted last year and ranked....12th in the NFL (PPF rankings).

The QB has high level stats in almost every category, including advanced stats. Holy crap, situational statistics show that his only real weakness is starting off games, I think his QBR was a crappy 80 something first ten throws. The next 11-40 throws were all 100+ of course. And I think the eye test shows that he's probably the best QB in the league at extending play and dropping delicately placed bombs, apologies to Aaron Rodgers.

What specifically does not convince you they're stacked? Because they plug and play at RB? (Real questions)

 

[ssanel54]

Is he a winner? Yea I’ll say he is. But three of those SB rings were essentially given to him.
2001 - Tuck Rule: Brady himself admitted he thought it was a fumble. I always wonder in an alternate universe where that was ruled a fumble, does Brady become the Brady that we know today?
2015 - Malcom Butler: Did Brady play a good game? Sure, but Seattle threw that game away.
2017 - View attachment 556047

You can’t make these arguments without also considering the two losses to the Giants. Especially the Tyree catch.

And the Patriots also gave the colts a SB victory in 2006 AFC matchup up 21-6. Winner of that game played the Rex Grossman bears in a formality

 

[BarrieJ3]

Jordan is the GOAT.

Even comparing stat monsters like Kareem and Lebron, you still have contend that basketball rules were changed to limit Kareem because he was so good, and rules were changed that improve Lebron's game despite him being more physically gifted.

Players have no ability or personal sway to the rules being changed. The most that would go to show is a level of dominance, and if so, let's crown George Mikan. There's no Kareem or Lebron rule, I've never done the Kareem or Lebron drill at practice.

Additionally, if we want to look at changes over time, I don't think it's applied fairly. One, players adapt, I can't imagine that Kareem would've been horrible today, or that Steph or Lebron would have been horrible then. The league over time has catered to offensive players - sure that can help stats, but your all time greats Jordan, Kobe, LeBron were all still all team defensive players.

I understand Jordan being GOAT 10 years ago, 5 years ago. But I just think Lebron has destroyed all those notions. This year was easy, I'll give him that. Every other year? He's won his coach and fellow players rings. Jordan never did that. Jordan had the best second player of all time in Scottie Pippen. Jordan was great. But so was Pippen. And so was Phil.

If Brady wins a championship this year, has a couple more years left in him and wins another in Florida or maybe another one somewhere else, I'll name him as transcendent. But to date, I can't think of anyone who has literally transcended their surroundings and forced their teams to a championship like Lebron.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

I’ll concede he’s not the undeniable GOAT ...but to all the hater posts?

 

[markleteenie]

Eli is the GOAT. He has two rings against the Patriots. That’s GREATNESS.

 

[upNdown]

2017 - View attachment 556047

Right. Don't give Tom any credit for possibly the most notable comeback in the history of sports.

 

[Chipton]

Manning, Rogers, Montana, Elway, and Young are all better than Brady IMO, and Russell Wilson and Mahomes are on track to be better too, though time will tell.

Don't get me wrong, Brady is great, but longevity and rings don't automatically make someone the GOAT in my eyes. If that's the only thing that matters to you, then you're welcome to that opinion, but you'd better think Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is the greatest basketball player too if that's your opinion. I just find it so strange how many people think Brady is the GOAT simply because of rings, but you almost never hear the Kareem argument for basketball. They have the exact same argument for GOATs in my eyes.

For anyone who plays fantasy football, have you ever had a single draft year where Tom Brady was the first QB taken? Ever? I've never seen a single draft in 20 years where he was. Usually not even top 3.

If being the 3rd, 4th, or 5th best QB in the league every year for 20 years makes someone the GOAT, then I guess he's the GOAT. But I prefer that the guy I consider to be the GOAT at least be the best QB in the league for at least 5 seasons or more. Brady has never once been the best QB in the league. The closest he came was when he had Randy Moss catching passes in his prime.

2007

NE

Yrds 4,806

TD 50

Int 8

Rtg 117.2

You don't think Brady was the best QB of the 2007 season?

 

[RocAFella1]

Right. Don't give Tom any credit for possibly the most notable comeback in the history of sports.

Did he will his team back? Sure, but in my eyes that’s the biggest choke in the history of sports.

 

[Chawks45]

It's about winning games and championships. TB is the GOAT in that category.

Fans care about stats, players & coaches care about winning. How many of the players would trade everything to win a Super Bowl? Think Lamar would give up his MVP for a playoff win? I bet he would. Winning really is the only thing that matters.

Give TB the ball with one drive to win, and more often than not, he gets it done. Give it to Manning and it's getting picked (and dear God, you better hope it's not raining or snowing!!).

TB won with great Defenses and terrible Offenses. Great Offenses and terrible Defenses. A great running game, and no running game. Deep ball and short ball. He just wins...and in football, that is all that really matters.

Don't even talk about fantasy ranking having an impact. It's absolutely irrelevant.

Agreed with this so much ^^

To a man from players to coaches, the individual accolades of All-Pro status, Pro Bowler, MVP, etc., take a back seat to the pursuit of a championship. You hear it in their voices during interviews, you see it in their eyes. Sure, those accomplishments help out with contract bonuses, but the goal is the ring. American football (distinguishing for our European friends), is widely considered the ultimate team sport and a Super Bowl ring is the crowning achievement.

Winning the Super Bowl becomes the ultimate qualifier, as we can no longer say, "He produced all those stats and regular-season wins, but never won the big one." The same applies to coaches like Reid. Before finally winning Super Bowl LIV, there was always the "but" in any conversation on how good of a coach he is. Now, he's known as a Super Bowl-winning coach in addition to all his notable career accomplishments.

Throughout the history of the NFL, there have been quarterbacks equipped with a wide range of unique skill sets. Marino, Favre, Elway, Rodgers, Roethlisberger, to name a few, possessed the cannons. Peyton Manning, Montana, Brees, etc., the cerebral aspect. Mahomes is a whole different level, but that's a subject for a different time.

To me, Brady has proven the ultimate assassin, also what I call an eraser, over his career. While he lacks the arm strength of Marino, Favre, etc., he is more than well-equipped to kill an opponent or erase a defensive mistake by producing a methodical game-winning drive.

Players want to be remembered as a champion -- multiple champion a big bonus -- and to that point the six-time Super Bowl champion Brady has no equal, especially at the quarterback position.

The GOAT debate for any sport is always fun, by the way.

 

[ChipEnvy]

I’ll concede he’s not the undeniable GOAT ...but to all the hater posts?

View attachment 556058

The has been Pats fans hate us cuz they ain’t us.

 

[upNdown]

The has been Pats fans hate us cuz they ain’t us.

Brother, we just witnessed the greatest dynasty in the history of sports. That liquor will keep us drunk for a long long time.
(also, Cam's gonna make a deep run this year)

 

[Eloe2000]

To a man from players to coaches, the individual accolades of All-Pro status, Pro Bowler, MVP, etc., take a back seat to the pursuit of a championship.

Winning the Super Bowl becomes the ultimate qualifier

But by this logic Trent Dilfer is better than Jim Kelly and Eli Manning and Dilfer are better than Dan Marino. That math doesn't add up in my book.

 

[BarrieJ3]

the individual accolades of All-Pro status, Pro Bowler, MVP, etc., take a back seat to the pursuit of a championship. You hear it in their voices during interviews, you see it in their eyes. Sure, those accomplishments help out with contract bonuses, but the goal is the ring.

Eh. I mean I believe this whole heartedly, but still meh. Whether looking for generational wealth, egos, etc., you sure don't see many folks taking pay cuts to go win a championship. It happens, but not crazy often and mostly at the end of careers or during rebound/prove it seasons.

Sure, once they win they say all the right things, and when they lose it hurts, but I don't quite buy this.

Especially when athletes in these same positions were doing coke and partying til 6 am before games just a few generations ago. Winning above all else didn't exist then, so its a somewhat strange measure for greatest of all time to me.

 

[pacmartine]

But by this logic Trent Dilfer is better than Jim Kelly and Eli Manning is better than Dan Marino.

Eli won more super bowls

 

[Eloe2000]

Eli won more super bowls

Yes, you found the first part of my point (although his team won more superbowls not Eli alone). So you believe Eli is better than Marino?

 

[pacmartine]

Eh. I mean I believe this whole heartedly, but still meh. Whether looking for generational wealth, egos, etc., you sure don't see many folks taking pay cuts to go win a championship. It happens, but not crazy often and mostly at the end of careers or during rebound/prove it seasons.

Sure, once they win they say all the right things, and when they lose it hurts, but I don't quite buy this.

Especially when athletes in these same positions were doing coke and partying til 6 am before games just a few generations ago. Winning above all else didn't exist then, so its a somewhat strange measure for greatest of all time to me.

But to the greatest, it is about winning. The undeniable drive to be validated.

 

[pacmartine]

Yes, you found the first part of my point. So you believe Eli is better than Marino?

Hell no! Dan Marino is the unicorn to all the arguments. The most talented QB that ever lived.

 

[Chawks45]

Eh. I mean I believe this whole heartedly, but still meh. Whether looking for generational wealth, egos, etc., you sure don't see many folks taking pay cuts to go win a championship. It happens, but not crazy often and mostly at the end of careers or during rebound/prove it seasons.

Sure, once they win they say all the right things, and when they lose it hurts, but I don't quite buy this.

Especially when athletes in these same positions were doing coke and partying til 6 am before games just a few generations ago. Winning above all else didn't exist then, so its a somewhat strange measure for greatest of all time to me.

Since you originally used basketball as the starting point, think Charles Barkley regrets never winning a championship? He's been on record numerous times saying he wished he won one. Or even going back more old school, what about when Clyde Drexler joined the Rockets so he could have a legit shot at a championship?

Also back to the NFL, last year, DE Terrell Suggs, decided to go ahead and join the Chiefs late in the season after his release from Arizona to pursue another ring, which he obviously got. Suggs originally said he would hold out if any other team other than the Ravens claimed him off waivers. He called it a 'lottery ticket' when the Chiefs made the move.

 

[Chawks45]

But by this logic Trent Dilfer is better than Jim Kelly and Eli Manning and Dilfer are better than Dan Marino. That math doesn't add up in my book.

Dilfer, to me, is forever the outlier. All the Ravens asked of him during that Super Bowl run was don't turn it over, and let the defense win it all. It worked.

Sadly, Kelly and Marino will often be remembered as two of the greatest to never win it all. I grew up rooting for Marino, so it sucks he never made it back to the Super Bowl. At least Kelly had four shots at it.

 

[Frogzilla]

I'm very confused by this. I don't like KC, I'm a Raiders fan.

They're offensive strategy is fantastic. They have the most feared Jet Sweep in the league, so what do they do? Randomly move away from it for entire games, running misdirections and reverses. They can utilize their RB, TE, and WRs in any of those 3 positions, so have fun game planning for that.

They have arguably the scariest deep threat in the league (if not 1, at least top 3) and have arguably the scariest TE in the league (if not 1, than at least top 2).

The offensive line was hurt and depleted last year and ranked....12th in the NFL (PPF rankings).

The QB has high level stats in almost every category, including advanced stats. Holy crap, situational statistics show that his only real weakness is starting off games, I think his QBR was a crappy 80 something first ten throws. The next 11-40 throws were all 100+ of course. And I think the eye test shows that he's probably the best QB in the league at extending play and dropping delicately placed bombs, apologies to Aaron Rodgers.

What specifically does not convince you they're stacked? Because they plug and play at RB? (Real questions)

Yea so take tyreek as an example. Certainly hill/mahomes combo is a top 3 deep threat. But how much of that is hill vs mahomes? It’s not so easy to parse. Mahomes makes mecole hardman look pretty good also. And kelce. And the o-line. Maybe they have elite players at every position...or maybe mahomes simply makes them look unstoppable

 

[pacmartine]

Dilfer, to me, is forever the outlier. All the Ravens asked of him during that Super Bowl run was don't turn it over, and let the defense win it all. It worked.

Sadly, Kelly and Marino will often be remembered as two of the greatest to never win it all. I grew up rooting for Marino, so it sucks he never made it back to the Super Bowl. At least Kelly had four shots at it.

Yup. That's how Peyton got his last ring. Manage the game.

A question for me since people like to say Rogers is better than Brady is would a young Rogers on the Patriots beat the greatest show on turf. I have my doubts (I am a packers fan BTW).

 

[upNdown]

Dilfer, to me, is forever the outlier. All the Ravens asked of him during that Super Bowl run was don't turn it over, and let the defense win it all. It worked.

Sadly, Kelly and Marino will often be remembered as two of the greatest to never win it all. I grew up rooting for Marino, so it sucks he never made it back to the Super Bowl. At least Kelly had four shots at it.

Marino always seemed like a big jerk. I never had the impression that any of his teammates wanted to win for him.