Adam Crowley
Two Pair
Pretty obvious call, trying to leverage a favorable ruling here I would consider bad etiquette.
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TOURNEY: Weird situation - what would you do here? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter justsomedude
- Start date
pokerplayingpisces
Full House
I'm pretty sure his intention was to call.
Like other's have mentioned, always get the dealer to clarify the action, before you table your hand. That's what you pay them for.
Sorry Andrew, I just don't see any ruling that goes in your favor.
Like other's have mentioned, always get the dealer to clarify the action, before you table your hand. That's what you pay them for.
Sorry Andrew, I just don't see any ruling that goes in your favor.
bergs
Royal Flush
In cash games players often pull this stunt in the casino - but I don't think he was trying to angle here. He prolly got excited and thought he said call when he hadn't yet. I've tabled a hand before after a big bet and a call not realizing that we weren't all in yet - it happens.
In cash games, I'll just state dumbly at villain for a while until barking "what's that?" or "whaddya doin?".
In cash games, I'll just state dumbly at villain for a while until barking "what's that?" or "whaddya doin?".
I know cash and tournament have different rules about talking, hand exposure etc.
I believe, in tournament at least, throwing your hands FACE DOWN towards the muck whether they touch muck or not. Cards are considered MUCKED
FACE UP however, and cards are still live. Unless you say FOLD as you throw them.
But i still find it hard to believe that on this forum we don't have at least 1 in house floor man....
I believe, in tournament at least, throwing your hands FACE DOWN towards the muck whether they touch muck or not. Cards are considered MUCKED
FACE UP however, and cards are still live. Unless you say FOLD as you throw them.
But i still find it hard to believe that on this forum we don't have at least 1 in house floor man....
DJ Mack
Flush
That's because we like to play, not umpire!
That's because we like to play, not umpire!
LOL i would like to believe you but.... we've all seen the whole table turn into little umpires when theres a bad ruling.
Jimulacrum
Full House
This is one of those spots that's going to fall to a house rule. Some places have a strict rule that any hand turned face-up before showdown is dead, period (in tournaments, anyway). In that case, I don't even think you could concede the pot to Villain if you wanted to, short of lying and saying you heard him say "Call."
Of course, that kind of rule would be a travesty in a spot like this, where it's so obvious that his intent was not to fold. I think everyone here can agree that you'd be unfairly getting the pot on a technicality.
Of course, that kind of rule would be a travesty in a spot like this, where it's so obvious that his intent was not to fold. I think everyone here can agree that you'd be unfairly getting the pot on a technicality.
DJ Mack
Flush
And what good player hasn't gotten tossed arguing a crappy call!
HA!! I definitely can't claim that.!!. (can't claim good player either)
Kyle
Full House
You did the right thing there. I would do the same thing and not be "that guy".
the details here are clear. Its a casino. they have rules. Its the dealers call. This is so clear cut its not funny.
as for the rules. Find out about them. is it a folded or a tabled hand? this one is fundamental to the game. Can the dealer fold a tabled hand? do they have to verbalize a call for it to be a call?
I mean if your going to play the game - learn the rules? This is the fundamental thing of playing any game.
Im really trying to not to be too brutal here, but seriously - Your money is involved - how can you play a game where you don't know the rules?
What!?!? Really!?!? Like seriously... people actually have that as a rule????
No where else in the world will you find that rule.
i never said it was a fold. All I ever said was that the guy didn't call, and I don't think that's right.
If there's a rule that says that was a call, please tell me about it. I'm eager to learn. From my perspective, that's what discussions like this are all about.
And yeah, no doubt the dealer or some floor person can make a ruling that it was a call. But that's not what happened here. Our hero just got up and walked away without requesting or waiting for a ruling.
If there's a rule that says that was a call, please tell me about it. I'm eager to learn. From my perspective, that's what discussions like this are all about.
And yeah, no doubt the dealer or some floor person can make a ruling that it was a call. But that's not what happened here. Our hero just got up and walked away without requesting or waiting for a ruling.
bentax1978
4 of a Kind
This. @upNdown has never argued in this thread that the Villain's hand should be a fold. He has argued that merely flipping the cards over without verbalizing or pushing chips forward is not a call. And in this regard, I agree with him. Hero could have waited for clarification from the dealer before exposing/conceding his own hand, but to be honest, I likely would have done the same once I saw the set of queens as there's no way it would have registered in my mind that it could have been anything but a call.
Based on what was posted, it sounds like there was neither a call nor a fold...they simply exposed their hand before actually indicating explicitly what their action was (in our tourneys, we tend to refer to the rules over at www.pokertda.com if there's any doubt, and it's covered under rule 63). Since the situation was ambiguous, it makes sense to look to the dealer to confirm the action. But I agree that I can't see it being ruled a fold, and I probably would have done the same thing as the OP.
Me too. Stupidity needs to be punished.
Jimulacrum
Full House
I'm not up for scouring the forum right now, but I spend a good bit of time at Live Casino Poker on 2+2, and I've seen this issue come up a number of times. It's pretty rare for it to even come up, but a lot of those cases seem to make their way to LCP.
Some cardrooms do not allow you to expose your hand before showdown during a tournament, period. Some don't even allow it during a cash game, though that's rarer. Some limit the rule to multi-way pots, and some don't. Where it is the rule, if you turn your hand face-up with action still open, it's dead. I don't fully agree with the rule, but I understand the reasoning behind it. It's not like this only ever happens in a spot where Villain has an obvious calling hand (and even if it's obvious, it's not up to the house to make bets for a player).
Imagine this happening in a different case, like say Hero has a set and Villain has a smaller set.
V bets, H shoves, and V turns his cards face-up without declaring an action. Now H tables his hand, assuming a call. Can you force V to pay off the bet? No. Turning one's cards face-up isn't a call. So, what, is it only a call when V has the nuts? Is it only a call when V has H beat? Basically, giving V the option to call or fold after he induced the error opens up this situation to angle-shooting.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Okay, I made a liar out of myself. I went ahead and scoured the forum.
Exposing cards is pretty universally not allowed during a tournament—heads-up or multi-way—but it's not always a dead hand. Some places kill the hand, but some others only impose a warning or penalty. TDA rule is the penalty route, and I believe that's the RROP rule too, but of course not all rooms use either of these rule sets.
Here are a handful of similar cases I came across in LCP:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...urned-up-before-saying-quot-call-quot-1348806
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...owing-cards-before-calling-tournament-1257452
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/live-casino-poker/correct-ruling-no-1243770
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...ed-tournament-when-exposed-potawatomi-1239824
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/live-casino-poker/player-facing-all-exposes-cards-1223400
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/27/live-casino-poker/latest-angle-shots-1196783
Adam Crowley
Two Pair
At the local in Brisbane, when I first started playing there I tabled my hand before calling in a cash game to get a read off the other player. The other opponent allowed it but the dealer warned me technically it's a dead hand and not to do it again.
hmmm OK i see the point. I was off topic here. sorry. I thought you were talking about "is the hand dead or live?" if its a call or not then yes its a much more hairy decision. in fact that is just a cluster...
im still wondering what casino was it?
GenghisKhan
Full House
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Villain: I know a guy who does this on purpose. Instead of calling the all in he throws cards face up on table. If hero shows winning hand, he says that was a fold. "Clearly I was trying to muck it". But he's hoping to catch hero with a smaller hand or a bluff and that the hwro will give him the pot.....In a way that it does not cost him anything to attempt it.
I have since made it clear verbal action is required before turning your cards. You only need to see it once to realise this is a pretty weasel thing to do.
So if you say villain won that hand, are you allowing him to back out the next time when he says that's clearly a fold when hero shows winner? I don't think I've ever seen any rule that says that's a call without chips or verbal action.
So if you let him weasel out when his hand is lower and take the cash when his hand wins it's always win win for him with zero chance of losing additional chips.
Am I making sense? lol
I have since made it clear verbal action is required before turning your cards. You only need to see it once to realise this is a pretty weasel thing to do.
So if you say villain won that hand, are you allowing him to back out the next time when he says that's clearly a fold when hero shows winner? I don't think I've ever seen any rule that says that's a call without chips or verbal action.
So if you let him weasel out when his hand is lower and take the cash when his hand wins it's always win win for him with zero chance of losing additional chips.
Am I making sense? lol
Adam Crowley
Two Pair
Sure you can angle shoot using this method but it is pretty easily avoided, just ask for clarification of the action before you show your cards.
In this case I think these is like a 100% chance he thought he had hero beat.
In this case I think these is like a 100% chance he thought he had hero beat.
ushallnotraise
Two Pair
Rules exist for a reason, especially in tournament poker. While it is kind of a shame in this spot, exposing your cards during a hand in tournament play makes the hand dead.
Um, no.
From the current TDA rules:
63: Exposing Cards and Proper Folding
A player who exposes his cards with action pending may incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. When folding, cards should be pushed forward low to the table, not deliberately exposed or tossed high (“helicoptered”). See also Rule 61.
From the 2016 WSOP Tournament Rules:
114. Exposing Cards and Proper Folding: A participant exposing his or her cards with action pending will incur a penalty, but will not have a dead hand. The penalty will begin at the end of the hand. All participants at the table are entitled to see the exposed card(s). When folding, cards should be pushed forward low to the table, not deliberately exposed or tossed high (“helicoptered”).
House rules may differ, of course, but we can't say that exposing one's cards in a tournament always results in a dead hand.
Craig D
Pair
Most places I play at have a "best interest of the game" rule and this trumps all
This does mean the ruling could go either way
If you are a known angle shooter and had QQ, in this spot it could be ruled dead, But it is clearly a call in every other occasion
Have Fun
This does mean the ruling could go either way
If you are a known angle shooter and had QQ, in this spot it could be ruled dead, But it is clearly a call in every other occasion
Have Fun
ushallnotraise
Two Pair
Yes I've read that, and it's also one of the few places I've actually read it as not being a dead hand. I've seen this happen many many times over the years, and I think I've only ever seen it not called a dead hand once (it was a situation just like OP was in).
Personally I believe it should always be a dead hand, as it is a way to attempt to gain more information from your opponent, and is clearly against the rules.
A more fair ruling would be that a hand tabled face-up is always a call. Since cards speak, the best hand will always win the pot (as it should be).... and it totally eliminates the angle-shooting aspect, since the player has no option to fold once he exposes his hand.
Dead hand rulings should always be avoided if possible. One of the reasons a shot clock with subsequent rail-time penalty is superior to ruling a hand dead when a player runs out of time.
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