Trying to buy some chips, but failing (1 Viewer)

[DrStrange]

I have a reoccurring failure to purchase problem that befuddles me when I try to buy chips through private transactions. It goes something like this.

Step one: Contact. Sometimes I reply to an advertisement. Other times someone has seen a post I made or some of my media and sends me a private message. Once it was a reply to a want-to-buy ad. I am not talking about "professional sellers", just random chip fans.

Step two: The dance. No one offers me a price (where as every professional seller has a price in mind). Even if they contact me cold, the prospective seller always leads with "make me an offer!"

Step three: I make an offer. Well ok - I do my research on eBay and the classifieds on chip talk and PCF. If it was a group buy, I figure out at least what people paid for the chips. If I have data, I send it along with my offer. If there is no data, then I say so and note I am just making a guess.

Step four-a: The seller makes a crazy counter offer. Sometimes the seller takes my notes as an opening bid and responds with crazy talk. Maybe tries to use the single chip auctions for rack pricing. Other times cherry-picks eBay data and then bumps it.
My best {old} example - I make a comment about Aztar $5s and someone sends me a note. I find four sales of rack quantity chips in the last 60 days - something like $65 - $45 - $45 - $50. I propose $55/rack shipped Seller counters with $80/rack plus shipping. I end up just buying four racks off eBay for $50 each plus shipping.

Step four-b: The seller gets insulted! Sometimes the seller thinks I am trying to low ball them and gets testy, rude or even profane.
My best {old} example - Someone sees my Outpost Album and sends me a note about a rack of $25s. These aren't common and there was no sales history. I send the seller a note saying there is no sales history so I am guessing about the market price and offer $150 shipped. The seller responds "nice try, have a nice day". I ask him how much did he think they are worth and he says they aren't for sale to me any more.

Step four-c: The seller gives me the silent treatment. Sometimes the seller just ignores the whole conversation.
My best {old} example - A seller has a WTS sell ad without pricing. He sees a comment from me and opens a private conversation. We do the dance, I research, make an "I am guessing" offer and then silence. I let a few days pass and then ask about the offer. He replies with "they are sold". Now I can see his want-ad. He even reposts the WTS ad after several weeks. But when I ask the second time the answer is "sold"

This whole thing just makes me scratch my head. For the most part people are coming to me with chips for sale - will not make an offer and then leave in a huff when they don't like the price I suggest (or make a crazy-high counter ) I fully appreciate that in each case we aren't close to a meeting of the minds but every time?

I can't figure if I have a sign reading "sucker" on my virtual head or what -=- DrStrange

PS I do distinguish between these types of situations and the times I make a low offer based on why I am willing to pay. But I bluntly say so in my offer which is generally public. I know I am offering less than expected and don't expect a polite response unless the seller decides the offer is better than nothing.

 

[slisk250]

I'm sorry to hear that. It is frustrating when there are chips you think someone wants to sell and then they get cold feet or otherwise can't complete the sale. I've made posts and sent PMs since summer to try and get chips I need, mostly unsuccessful. I had a seller reply to me about some Terrible's I need. They pulled out and didn't reply after a few messages. I understand as he had a hard time parting with them and probably was worried to hear what I would pay. If you're out there and think I'm talking about you send me a PM

The other one happened recently with a well known chipper here. I asked if they would part with some very exclusive chips and they are a bit expensive. I figured it was a Hail Mary shot. I was thrilled that he offered to sell me 160 of those babies. I almost peed my pants!! 40 more and I think I've got a set complete. Never thought I'd get these. We also had a nice exchange about kids and college tuition. You're a nice guy Mr. X (no it isn't PAZ). Thank you so much.

Then there is a chipper here that I hold in very high regard...perhaps one of the top 10 chipe prOnners on this site ever. This guy has hunted chips for me and helped build something that is a bit special to me. He is now hunting down 97 very special chips....Can't wait until we can drink that bottle of wine together as planned! I would take a bullet for him (with vest on, let's get real

I guess that I've been more successful because I'm not bargaining much if at all. Depends on the chips and the seller. I've got to keep the faith. Maybe I'll get the Terrible's & PCNYs in the next year plus some other stuff too.

For all the chips I have, the only sets I consider finished are the EOL customs. I need friggin' chips!

 

[BGinGA]

I rarely haggle over chip pricing. If I'm selling, I know what the chips are worth, and price them fairly and accordingly. Don't like the price? No worries, somebody else will buy them. I'm not running BGinGA's Bargain Basement for chips here, although I'm not about to fleece fellow chippers on certain items just because the market prices have seemingly risen in recent months, either.

When buying, I rarely (never?) offer less than the asking price, unless I think it's outrageous (but I'm more likely to avoid those sellers altogether) or am offering to combine sales/shipping. Imo, when somebody is trolling for offers ("make me an offer!"), they have no right to be offended, no matter what the offer is..... since they asked for it. Sellers who have a number in mind should simply state it and either let's get on with concluding business or I'm moving on down the aisle.

I'm a bit surprised to see how many issues you've experienced, Dr. For the most part, nearly all of my past chip transactions (both ways) have been pleasurable and painless.

 

[Ronoh]

I hate the dance and avoid it whenever possible. I have responded to a grand total of one "or best offer" sale here, I sent my best offer along with a message nicely stating that this was my best offer so please don't send a counter-offer (to avoid a pointless back-and-forth) and received a sarcastic asshat response in return.

Per pricing I have zero issues with anyone offering chips for high prices... pickins' are so slim lately I would rather have expensive options than no options. This coming from a buyers perspective as I rarely sell anything.

 

[jbutler]

Imo, when somebody is trolling for offers ("make me an offer!"), they have no right to be offended, no matter what the offer is..... since they asked for it.

definitely this. i saw this more in my old vinyl collecting addiction (which i have since overcome) than i do in chipping. i've had more positive experiences - even when haggling - than Dr Strange has. unfortunately your experience, Doc, remind me more of the vinyl days.

i hope i haven't shown it myself when dealing with buying/selling with chippers, but i wonder if some of these buyers/sellers have jobs that require them to more often negotiate prices. not in the way of an excuse, but i have to do a fair amount of negotiation in my job and i can imagine falling into those habits unconsciously without realizing that the venue might benefit from a more friendly approach.

i'm sure some feel differently and that chip price negotiation even between familiar chippers should be approached no differently from buying a car. maybe this thread will show the diversity of opinion on that front.

 

[slisk250]

Here is my take on pricing. I'm not on this site to sell chips. I'm here to find chips and play cards with guys I want as friends. If I get chips at 1 dollar, I can't expect to sell them to a "friend" at 5 bucks, could I? It's just not something I'd do. I remember selling a rack of Mapes 25s to a member here after Spinettis ran out. I did it at cost after shipping. Chip karma come my way. Is my secret friend with those chips I want listening?...

 

[David O]

@DrStrange I know the feeling and just went through that recently. I have to share my experience.

I had someone PM me asking what I would be willing to pay for a barrel or rack of some chips I have been looking for. The key word in this seems to be "Willing". Being in sales marketing and negotiations being my specialty for the last 20 years I can already see where this conversation is going. The person may or may not have the chips but is looking for their value or is looking to make a nice profit. So I respond with I would not mind paying close to what they originally sold and asked what he was asking for them. I was willing to pay a slight premium for the chips but I just did not want to pay double to triple the price as some of the so called "chip Collectors" try to get (topic for another thread). So he responds with that he really did not want to get rid of them unless I had a "compelling offer". This again implies he was going for a huge profit! So I replied with I do not want to be greedy but would like to purchase only one or two barrels and if he would consider any trades. So after no response after approximately 45 minutes I responded again with "No response". 15 minutes later their response was "no thank you". I then sent a message stating that it would have been easier for them to tell me what he wanted for the chips
instead of playing this game which took an hour. All I can gather is they wanted to sell the chips at a large premium and I did not want to overpay for something. I did make a reasonable offer but never received an answer for 45 minutes and only after I sent the message of "No Answer".

Point one is they PM'd me. So they should tell me what they have for sale and how much they were looking to get. Start high on the price if needed and let's negotiate and settle on a price.
Point two is I truly believe in chip Karma and do not try to make huge profits on this site or the other site. I will trade when it benefits both parties
Point three is if someone sends a pm to you at least be respectful and answer it if you are online. Even if it is a short "let me think about it" or I will get back to you later with and answer" but do not remain silent. IMO this is unacceptable but happens quite frequently on these sites.

Anyway, that is my story. I do not have any ill feelings toward this person or any of the other folks that have done similar things but just wanted to vent and now I feel better. I live a very peaceful life since I live by two rules in life.

Rule Number 1 is "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff." and Rule Number 2.......

"In the grand scheme of things, It's All Small Stuff!"

David

 

[12thMan]

I do not enjoy negotiating like some people do, I feel like for some the act of negotiating itself is almost as fun as what they are buying. I am not one of those people and when someone says things like "shoot me an offer" I am very cautious because I could either offend someone or screw myself from lack of knowledge (talking chips). I may haggle with someone a little, but I don't like being the one to say "here's what I'll pay" because if they say no I was obviously to low for them, but if they shoot a message back right away with "sure, sounds great" I immediately start wondering how much I just stupidly over payed for their item. It is definitely someones right to say "make me an offer", especially if it's something that they hadn't considered selling before, but it turns me off a lot of things and the few times it's happened I either made a very low offer or said "thanks anyway" and went on with life.

I guess I am saying I hear what you are saying, and I agree that it's not how I like to do it, but it is their right, and someone recognizing that they have something you want and trying to get some profit out of it isn't the absolute worst thing in life... I just chalk it up to "it's how things are" and if I want the item enough I think of the premium being spent as just charging it to the game.

That being said, I am like you @David O , I like chips in playable breakdowns and full racks because I love chips. If I was selling some PD 25's or 100's to somebody I wouldn't gouge them, maybe few bucks over what I payed to account for cleaning, or time, or separation anxiety (I hate selling stuff), and I hope that karma would come back to me. I firmly believe that "what goes around comes around" in the chip world concerning good karma, but not because of some mystical force in the universe but instead if you get a good name with people they are going to help you (me) out when you need it. I've seen it happen personally and I'm not a serious collector nor have I been around for years: I sent somebody something they needed and told them not to worry about the few bucks for the item and the few bucks for the shipping because I would rather have the karma than the $8, low and behold I make a post about wanting a 9 Dragon sample set and what shows up in my mailbox four days later but some 9 Dragons chips. That's good stuff. I would rather do it that way than negotiate and the end goal being for me "get it for as cheap as possible" and for the other party"get every last penny out of him I can"... Some of that goes right out the window though if I want whatever it is bad enough. For example, the PD chips, like you David I would LOVE to pick up three barrels or so of the 25's and 100's, I maaaaaayyyyy even overpay for them because of how much I want them, and if that situation arose and karma didn't come back to me I would not love the situation, but the reality is "they" have something I want and it is up to me how much I want to (over) pay for them.

All that to say I agree with you David (and everybody else) about not being here to get rich, but I can't "hate" on somebody who might be here for that very reason. They can have my money if I want to overpay, but they are not on my "send this guy/girl something cool for free if they ever need it" list...

 

[David O]

@12thMan I agree. Chip Karma is great and not a mysterious power but more about reputation in a community. I received a bit of it recently when I was looking for a dealer button. A member sent me one at no cost. I offered to at least pay shipping but he refused. I hope to pay it forward soon!!!

I do not mind the negotiation but at least name a price to initiate a negotiation. Or if I submit a price don't ignore it!

Yes, there are a few different items I would pay a slight premium for such as the PD chips. If I could get a couple of barrels of 25's and at least one barrel of 100's that would be great although if I don't it is not the end of the world. I am a collector but not so serious that I need to have everything in the chip world and pay inflated prices to get them. I have other collections that take some time and money as well such as guns and autographed items, although I do not have much $$$ tied up in the autographs, Most were gifts from Superbowl or other events I attended. I have some one of a kind items in that collection and not sure I would sell any of them. I collect because I enjoy it and not to make money. I make pretty good money in my real life so I do not use my hobbies to profit off of.

This community for the most part has been great. I have seen decent trades and even have seen some "garage sales" where I know the sellers are selling chips for what they paid for them. That keeps a community and hobby strong.

Keep on chipping!

 

[DrStrange]

I don't object to paying market prices for chips, even if the seller paid less, with a few exceptions. People who bought thousands of chips from a chip room sale planning to flip them and 2x price to slower people in the next weeks is not cool at all. I understand the PD situation is going to cause problems - the chip set wasn't big to start with and now key chips are largely gone from circulation.

But even if you have some of these highly desirable chips, just put the price on the table. It is better (from my perspective) just to say you want $3 / chip for something now rare than to do the stupid "make me an offer" - "Oh you insulted me with your low offer!" act.

DrStrange

 

[maxim_666666]

all people are different. and we all have different approaches.
For example, a person can get sick and do not respond to your letters for weeks. Can you blame him? Or just change his mind at the last moment ... because for many of us it's not about the money .... but about chips ..

 

[maxim_666666]

if it was easy ...
..
then you would not be so pleased to open a new package...

 

[sat guru]

The technique that you are struggling with is called "anchoring." Typically in a negotiation parties set assumptions/expectations/price points and move to some center point between those factors. In chips, the matrix isn't complex: condition, rarity, personal desirability, emotional attachment, etc. most of these are relatively easy to quantify (as evidenced by your research into market prices). So market forces frequently drive your transaction.

What you have described above is a negotiator requiring you to set the floor of the negotiation, which even if you do that, they will artificially manipulate price by picking some higher price than the one they would have started with because you have provided them with the opening bid. The resulting agreed price will invariably be artificially higher than if the price ceiling had been set first. You've essentially negotiated against yourself. (The purpose of low balling is essentially doing the opposite: setting a low floor to artificially lower price.) The point is that they are just tactics.

The appropriate response to "make me an offer" is: "I never do that." Just tell them (especially if they contact you) that they should state a price first. If they're not prepared to do that, then typically they are not a committed seller and will waste your time, so you should disengage and save yourself the heartbreak and annoyance. Without a price from them a buying process hasn't started, so realize that you are not in one until you get their price. Once you hear it, you are now in control of the process, and can decide whether to move forward or not.

Frankly, any person who responds indignantly to an offer without setting a ceiling price is an idiot, especially if they contacted first. Really? You contact someone with the expectation that they're going to give you a high price so you can leverage them further?

 

[David O]

^^^ stated very eloquently and right on point

 

[Jeff]

+1 sat gru.

I know some people love to negotiate, but it hasn't been my thing. I have generally paid people what they asked if it was reasonable, and didn't buy them if it wasn't.

I have also said no thank you or shut off the conversation a couple of times. Not because it offended me, but because it was tiresome. I have never needed to sell chips when I put chips up for sale.

 

[slisk250]

Yup - valid points - I'll add a little something about chip karma too. I'll offer a lower price to a chipper who has done me right in the past. Do me a favor...I'll help you get some chips even if I have to buy them for you first from someone else...offer me huge prices or lame trades...I might not sell to you at any price but give them away at cost to that chipper who helped me. Never try to gouge another chipper, that money will spend today but the karma lasts longer.

 

[Casamada]

I've had a couple of bad experiences with people backing out after the deal is closed (a couple of sales of my sets), bummer but you just have to get back in the horse

 

[Trihonda]

Have a 50" round table for sale locally. I have maybe $300 into materials, and the table is flawless. I was initially asking $300 (to cover my costs), which obv didn't factor in my build time/efforts.

I since dropped it to $275, $250, $225 with very minor interest. I recently received an offer of $100 from a guy, and I respectfully declined, and explained the material costs and that my price didn't factor in my labor/time, etc.. The response I received was snarky and rude, and explained to me that I can't possibly expect to receive compensation for my time, since nobody does this. Well, for a while, I was making and selling tables on CL, and I explained to mr. rude, that any person making a product would go out of business if they only sold things for their materials costs. I was not trying to be rude, but politely educate. Fell on deaf ears, and a rude re-affirmation of his $100 offer was my only reply... Ya, like I'd sell it to you now, even if you paid my asking price... Not!

 

[David O]

That is the problem with many of the younger generation these days. Many feel like everyone owes them and when you decline their low ball offer they rant and rave. I have run in to this as well. Many do not know how to properly negotiate and end up getting upset and blaming everyone else. Low ball offers are okay and as explained in a previous post sets a floor price. This should open the negotiation by allowing the seller to come back with his price and not upset the potential buyer. @Trihonda I agree with you. I would not sell to someone like that either. I would rather donate it to charity for a tax write off or take a loss from someone who would get get use out of the item.

David

 

[derekdd23]

Some people don't understand that an offer is just that. Negotiations should never create hard feelings. When we were buying a house a couple of years ago our real estate agent told us not to offer too little or we would offend the owner. I just don't get why people are so sensitive, if the offer is too low decline or say I think we are way too far apart. I also think that people who low ball a seller and then are rude when the seller politely declines are way out of line. I always try to make an offer right around what I think something is worth, in fact I almost never have been countered so maybe i am leaving something on the table, but maybe I am making offers that satisfy all parties.

 

[manamongkids]

Have a 50" round table for sale locally. I have maybe $300 into materials, and the table is flawless. I was initially asking $300 (to cover my costs), which obv didn't factor in my build time/efforts.

I since dropped it to $275, $250, $225 with very minor interest. I recently received an offer of $100 from a guy, and I respectfully declined, and explained the material costs and that my price didn't factor in my labor/time, etc.. The response I received was snarky and rude, and explained to me that I can't possibly expect to receive compensation for my time, since nobody does this. Well, for a while, I was making and selling tables on CL, and I explained to mr. rude, that any person making a product would go out of business if they only sold things for their materials costs. I was not trying to be rude, but politely educate. Fell on deaf ears, and a rude re-affirmation of his $100 offer was my only reply... Ya, like I'd sell it to you now, even if you paid my asking price... Not!

ill give you $5 and you pay shipping to Boston, deal!

 

[slisk250]

I agree with what Derek says with one caveat. If you get offered something in trade, it should not be so lopsided that it insults your intelligence. I've had a couple of those from solid members here. I'm sure they are great guys too.

 

[atomiktoaster]

I just feel like I'm priced out of chipping at this point. A bunch of GVs just sold for more than I could afford on ebay.de today. I have a couple group buys to finish off and sample sets on order (leaving just the hourglass, die card, no mold and jockey to complete my CPC collection), but if I ever get my hands on a rack of P-A-D $1s to finish off my cash set, I think I'll be done visiting on a daily basis for a while.

 

[David O]

Excuse my newness but P-A-D?

@atomiktoaster Don't go nowhere. I for one love your input and if you need GV's let me know and I should be able to help you out. I was watching those and some of the pricing was good for the seller but not good for the buyer. Apparently the buyer is from Germany and they said it is hard to get chips there, hence the win at all costs bidding.

 

[DrStrange]

Demand exceeds supply. I have sticker shock too.

I have big sets of vintage casino chips where my average cost per chip is less than $0.75 per chip, some in the $0.50 per chip range. Makes me hurt to pay over a buck per chip for well used chips, but I fear it is going to get even more expensive. I wonder if I am done building sets . . . . ?

DrStrange

PS nope, I guess not. I have a new set of Aztar chips inbound. "Enough chips" please, that is crazy talk.

 

[atomiktoaster]

Excuse my newness but P-A-D?

@atomiktoaster Don't go nowhere. I for one love your input and if you need GV's let me know and I should be able to help you out. I was watching those and some of the pricing was good for the seller but not good for the buyer. Apparently the buyer is from Germany and they said it is hard to get chips there, hence the win at all costs bidding.

Other than the $50 rack of $5s (crazy for some pretty worn chips), I think they were about right. The $100s might have been on the cheap side, honestly. Aztar used $100s are going for over $1/chip. Those racks went for $60 and $70.

And P-A-D is Par-A-Dice.

 

[David O]

YEs the 5's were a bit high but what about the $500's. One went for $60.30 and the other went for $72.81 not including the shipping.

I did figure out the acronym once I hit "post Reply" thank you for the education!

I have been meaning to ask. What part of Texas are you from?

 

[atomiktoaster]

YEs the 5's were a bit high but what about the $500's. One went for $60.30 and the other went for $72.81 not including the shipping.

I did figure out the acronym once I hit "post Reply" thank you for the education!

I have been meaning to ask. What part of Texas are you from?

That's about the price I had in my head. I put my card guard 500 in an air tite months ago when I realized they were going for 3-4 each on eBay. I'm about an hour north of Houston.

 

[tigon]

I just feel like I'm priced out of chipping at this point. A bunch of GVs just sold for more than I could afford on ebay.de today. I have a couple group buys to finish off and sample sets on order (leaving just the hourglass, die card, no mold and jockey to complete my CPC collection), but if I ever get my hands on a rack of P-A-D $1s to finish off my cash set, I think I'll be done visiting on a daily basis for a while.

I was watching those too. I thought the final prices for the $100 and under chips were pretty reasonable, wish I'd put a few bids in.

 

[atomiktoaster]

I was watching those too. I thought the final prices for the $100 and under chips were pretty reasonable, wish I'd put a few bids in.

Yeah, I didn't think they were unreasonable, just that I can't stomach reasonably priced chips on my current budget, it seems. I put in a $35 bid late on one of the racks of $25s and it held until the snipers showed up.

A second rack of quarters for my .05/.10 cash set that I built in case the need comes around again after one of my 3-4 tournaments a year isn't really make or break.

I can't really feel bad about it, because at least with eBay there's a clear price and you don't have to play games with the seller (like the situation that started this thread).