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What to do about hidden big chips after an ill-informed all in? (2 Viewers)

upNdown

upNdown

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Did Alec Torelli ANGLESHOOT An Amateur On Television?
Doug Polk video, 20 min long, totally worth watching if you don't hate Doug
Short story, preflop there's about 7 grand in the pot, Wolf (with something like $25k behind) shoves, thinking the the three-bettor, Torelli, has something like $10k behind. Torelli then pulls two $5k chips out, that were totally buried behind his stack, forces Wolf to go in for the extra $10k and generally acts like a douche about the whole thing.

Thoughts?
I think Torelli's hidden $10k should have been "disqualified" for the hand, and he should have only been able to call all in with the balance of his chips. But I have no idea if that's ever done.
 
If the big chips weren't up front it plain view they shouldn't be considered in play.

But the better should also make an effort to make sure he knows what his opponent has if he is planning on betting an amount equal to their stack.
 
courage said:
Have to let it slide then lol. I think this is my fav Polk video. The vest and dance moves at end still make me roll.
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It's up there for me too... It's a fucking riot... Dude is good... One of the best things to happen to poker in a while, imho...
 
I watched this yesterday, these are my thoughts.

Alec should have offered to play the all in minus the 10k since it was hidden. But I agree with the floor that it does count. The floor should have also issued a warning that he would be removed from the poker room if it happened ever again. Since Alec is a shady asshole he obv doesn't even consider this. As a long time pro on a recorded show this should have never happened. The dealer also should be watching for this too.

The other guy really should have asked how deep Alec was before shoving. I have seen this angle shot so many times that I don't trust anyone anymore. For the rest of his poker career the other guy will never forget this pot. Just this week I had to tell 2 players at the poker table to stop hiding chips.
 
Are you required to put your chips on a certain side? I'm right handed, I keep my chips to the left of me so I can use my right hand.

I understand it's televised and they may have a certain way they want things done, but the fact you're left handed shouldn't impact where you put high value chips. Especially since he then grabs those chips (and shuffles other chips) with his right hand like the entire time.

His own video was pretty awful as well and is kind of the nail in the scumbag coffin. Everything you do is being recorded, seems like an awful spot to lie about what happened.
 
btbmason said:
Are you required to put your chips on a certain side? I'm right handed, I keep my chips to the left of me so I can use my right hand.

I understand it's televised and they may have a certain way they want things done, but the fact you're left handed shouldn't impact where you put high value chips. Especially since he then grabs those chips (and shuffles other chips) with his right hand like the entire time.

His own video was pretty awful as well and is kind of the nail in the scumbag coffin. Everything you do is being recorded, seems like an awful spot to lie about what happened.
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You are required to put the big chips at the front or top of your stack so that they can be seen by any position on he table.
 
Poker Zombie said:
I would like to see a rule that read "If the largest denominations are not on top & out front, they will be removed from play without compensation.

Nobody would ever forget twice.
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On top isn't generally required, right? I always have my big chips on the bottom, but I make sure they're in front, visible to everybody.
 
IMO, you can't "offer" to play for less. Because depending on what Wolf decides, it could give away information about the strength of his hand.

I too don't think Torelli was angle-shooting. It was an honest mistake. But Wolf also made a mistake by not asking for a count. I think the bet has to stand and Torelli gets a warning about keeping his big chips visible.

Torelli taking advantage of the situation what shitty, IMO.
 
upNdown said:
On top isn't generally required, right? I always have my big chips on the bottom, but I make sure they're in front, visible to everybody.
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I've always done this too, up front but on bottom.....it's too easy for someone to swipe the top chip from stacks by just walking by......never had an issue, played at WSOP, WSOP Circuits, HPT, etc, always ok...

Same reason I split my chips at Craps into 1s/5s/25s/100s/25s/5s/1s in the rail at the table....
 
WedgeRock said:
IMO, you can't "offer" to play for less. Because depending on what Wolf decides, it could give away information about the strength of his hand.

I too don't think Torelli was angle-shooting. It was an honest mistake. But Wolf also made a mistake by not asking for a count. I think the bet has to stand and Torelli gets a warning about keeping his big chips visible.

Torelli taking advantage of the situation what shitty, IMO.
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I think that position is kinda the general sense on the matter Erik... Not one I would subscribe to personally... There's a rule about showing your big chips prominently... If there is no drawback in breaking that rule, nothing will ever change... IMO, if the chips are hidden, they should be out of play...
 
nitzilla said:
I've always done this too, up front but on bottom.....it's too easy for someone to swipe the top chip from stacks by just walking by......never had an issue, played at WSOP, WSOP Circuits, HPT, etc, always ok...

Same reason I split my chips at Craps into 1s/5s/25s/100s/25s/5s/1s in the rail at the table....
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I do the same except I do "pocket lint / $1 / $5 / the gap where my $25 used to be / $5 / $1"
 
ChaosRock said:
I think that position is kinda the general sense on the matter Erik... Not one I would subscribe to personally... There's a rule about showing your big chips prominently... If there is no drawback in breaking that rule, nothing will ever change... IMO, if the chips are hidden, they should be out of play...
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I'm okay with that result too... Except if Wolf was looking to bust Torelli... What if Wolf held AA? Wolf wants the full value of his allin.

So if you adhere to your rule, Wolf wants to eliminate Torelli, but Torelli benefits by hiding chips and still sitting on 10k even after losing an AI-call. (EDIT: unless you are suggesting that they be REMOVED from play, i.e., taken out of Torelli's stack for good -- as opposed to not part of the pot for this hand.)

The rule has to be applied the same every time, regardless of what Torelli or Wolf is holding. Because Wolf was in error too, I think it stands. Torelli gets a warning because his bad action is what created the environment for the whole damn mess. The warning (and punishment if it happens again) is what deters this kind of action in the future.
 
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They don't have to be on top that's why I said in front OR on top. Just as long as everyone can see them.

FWIW I always leave mine on top if there are only a couple or in stacks up front if I have a full barrel. Never once has anyone tried to swipe my chips in the thousands of hours I have spent in the casino.
 
derekdd23 said:
FWIW I always leave mine on top if there are only a couple or in stacks up front if I have a full barrel. Never once has anyone tried to swipe my chips in the thousands of hours I have spent in the casino.
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Same here...
 
derekdd23 said:
Never once has anyone tried to swipe my chips in the thousands of hours I have spent in the casino.
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Has your house ever been robbed? You still lock your doors when you go to bed, though, right?

I guess the point is just simple measures to avoid the potential for a major loss.
 
upNdown said:
On top isn't generally required, right? I always have my big chips on the bottom, but I make sure they're in front, visible to everybody.
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The rule says something to the effect of 'in clear view'. If you have a stack of big denoms on the bottom of your lead stack, it's usually not an issue, as they will stand out. However, if you have a single large chip it does not take much to make it "disappear" under a large stack of smaller chips, or be outright invisible if the player tends to keep their hand on their cards, or if they have a larger card capper. So when does a stack of big chips become too hard to see on the bottom of a stack? When does it become harder to see a single chip or 2 down low for the visually challenged (talking near-sighted or color-blind, not straight up blind).

In my home game, we enforce front and top, but will let it slide a little if the stack is tall, because there's a convenience factor to having the smaller denoms accessible to make change or for coloring up. Usually you remind one person and everyone obliges. Never had to resort to penalties. Never had a mistake about approximate chipstacks either.
 
WedgeRock said:
I'm okay with that result too... Except if Wolf was looking to bust Torelli... What if Wolf held AA? Wolf wants the full value of his allin.

So if you adhere to your rule, Wolf wants to eliminate Torelli, but Torelli benefits by hiding chips and still sitting on 10k even after losing an AI-call. (EDIT: unless you are suggesting that they be REMOVED from play, i.e., taken out of Torelli's stack for good -- as opposed to not part of the pot for this hand.)

The rule has to be applied the same every time, regardless of what Torelli or Wolf is holding. Because Wolf was in error too, I think it stands. Torelli gets a warning because his bad action is what created the environment for the whole damn mess. The warning (and punishment if it happens again) is what deters this kind of action in the future.
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I agree, the rule should be applied as consistently as possible...

But, when in doubt, it should never favor the guy at fault... So yeah, if Wolf had AA, put all your chips there since I saw your all your chips... If he has AT, swallow your hidden chips buddy, LOL!!! People will NEVER leave their chips hidden if that was the case...

And a punishment in cash games means nothing really... 1 or 2 suspension orbits? Time for a couple of beers!
 
WedgeRock said:
Has your house ever been robbed? You still lock your doors when you go to bed, though, right?

I guess the point is just simple measures to avoid the potential for a major loss.
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I haven't locked my door at night in over 15 years.

That said, if I had a $10,000 chip in my stack, It would be in clear view & my eyes would never leave it.

...except to look at J-Till's cleavage. Did you see those things wiggle? :eek:
 
derekdd23 said:
You are required to put the big chips at the front or top of your stack so that they can be seen by any position on he table.
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No I get that, I just mean since he said he's left handed, can't he have his chips to the right of him so he can move them around with his left hand?

I didn't understand how the argument of being left handed was valid.
 
ChaosRock said:
But, when in doubt, it should never favor the guy at fault...
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Totally agree that the at-fault person should not benefit. So is that Torelli for not having his chips out, or Wolf for not asking for a stack estimate? Either position could use a ruling to angle shoot.

ChaosRock said:
So yeah, if Wolf had AA, put all your chips there since I saw your all your chips...
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This is a good point. If Wolf has AA, he never even says, "wait, you have silvers?!"... He just lets the hand play out. Unless he is next leveling Torelli... Lol.

ChaosRock said:
And a punishment in cash games means nothing really... 1 or 2 suspension orbits? Time for a couple of beers!
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Agreed. I was suggesting a warning, because while wrong, I don't think Torelli's mistake is intentional. A second violation would be mean he is asked to leave, IMO.
 
upNdown said:
On top isn't generally required, right? I always have my big chips on the bottom, but I make sure they're in front, visible to everybody.
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The last tournament I played at JACK Cincinnati the dealer asked a player to put them on top of their stack so they could be seen.

It could be casino/floor dependent. I always have them on the top.
 
btbmason said:
No I get that, I just mean since he said he's left handed, can't he have his chips to the right of him so he can move them around with his left hand?
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His excuses (left hand, they were here... here...) sound like a teenager getting his first moving violation.

Or this...
 

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