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What to do about hidden big chips after an ill-informed all in? (1 Viewer)

WedgeRock said:
Totally agree that the at-fault person should not benefit. So is that Torelli for not having his chips out, or Wolf for not asking for a stack estimate? Either position could use a ruling to angle shoot.
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Which case you think is worse? How many time have you seen people shipping without asking how many chips the other guys had? A million...

Hiding chips is against the rule... Wolf has the responsibility of knowing the stack of the other player as long as the other player is not breaking any rules, i.e. hiding chips...
 
Doug pretty quickly acknowledges in his discussion that whatever rule we might want to apply in this situation, it's essentially impossible to reliably administer at a regular casino table.

Sadly like so many other things it comes down to simply caveat emptor.

As for what I would do in Torelli's situation, it would depend on where I am. Game with close friends, I offer to run it for less. Casino, GFY.
 
It doesn't look to me like the game is big enough (yet?) to need silver chips.
 
IMO, Wolf is not at fault...at all. There is a rule that clearly implies all chips must be in view. There is not a rule that implies a player must ask another if he's hiding chips.
 
I don't think Alec was angle-shooting. I do think he started out with an honest mistake and ended up wading through piles of his own filth and looking like a delta bravo by the time his YouTube video was published. Lies are bad; cover-ups are worse. Doug's point re: asking about how much your opponent has in their stack is valid, though, and Wolf failed to do that.

On a regular casino table/floor? Blargh...IDK what I'd do, but I *think* I'd let the hand stand as-is and enforce the all-in at the higher amount. I'm not sure that there's an equitable, consistently enforceable way to handle this.

You could potentially review the hand on CC video afterwards (I'm not sure that you freeze the hand to do it) and if the chips were effectively hidden then issue a "warning", but as Paulo indicated, what does that really do in a cash game? You could potentially tell the offending player - in private - that next time he's accused of questionable chip position that the chips in question will be considered out of play. You can't tell the rest of the table, though, because they'll use that against him the first chance they get. Not sure how that policy would have any teeth, though. How would they track that "this player loses all benefit of the doubt" list? And how long would the offender be on it?

IDK...this is why I'm not a floor supervisor (among numerous other reasons).

chkmte said:
IMO, Wolf is not at fault...at all. There is a rule that clearly implies all chips must be in view.
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At fault in the sense that he didn't break any poker room rule? Completely agree. He did, however, break what I believe to be the top unwritten dictate in casino cash play, and that's the same thing they tell boxers - protect yourself at all times. Simply asking how much Alec had would have prevented the situation & provided an additional level of protection for his stack. He didn't do that.
 
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I think the only really fair way to Wolff would be if Toreli calls he has to turn his hand up and Wolff then can decide if they play for the full amount or $10k less. Once he decides then the board is run out.

This would keep anyone one from trying to pull this type of angle shoot.
 
chkmte said:
IMO, Wolf is not at fault...at all. There is a rule that clearly implies all chips must be in view. There is not a rule that implies a player must ask another if he's hiding chips.
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If I'm turning around what I know is a blind corner and decide to just speed on out without taking a long look and I get rear ended I have a hard time believing a lot of people would say it's not my fault at all.
 
Rhodeman77 said:
I think the only really fair way to Wolff would be if Toreli calls he has to turn his hand up and Wolff then can decide if they play for the full amount or $10k less. Once he decides then the board is run out.

This would keep anyone one from trying to pull this type of angle shoot.
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The prob with this and every other attempt to control for this situation is how we expect someone (presumably the dealer or the floor) to make a reliable determination as to whether someone was "hiding" chips. It's not reasonably possible.
 
jbutler said:
The prob with this and every other attempt to control for this situation is how we expect someone (presumably the dealer or the floor) to make a reliable determination as to whether someone was "hiding" chips. It's not reasonably possible.
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I agree that in every poker room across the country this isn't feasible. But in this situation it is easy to do by checking the film. For $10k I think the floor should make the best effort. While Wolff isn't at fault, he is suffering the consequences. It is a good lesson to make sure to ask the question before betting.
 
Rhodeman77 said:
I agree that in every poker room across the country this isn't feasible. But in this situation it is easy to do by checking the film. For $10k I think the floor should make the best effort. While Wolff isn't at fault, he is suffering the consequences. It is a good lesson to make sure to ask the question before betting.
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This situation will apply to .000000001% of poker games so I don't see the point in even attempting to apply what's possible here to the game at large.
 
jbutler said:
This situation will apply to .000000001% of poker games so I don't see the point in even attempting to apply what's possible here to the game at large.
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Probably true, but it may be a little more common than you think. For example when the Horseshoe Casino opened here in Cleveland there was a rule that $500 and higher chips were not considered live at $1/2 NL games. $100 chips were the biggest chip a player could have on the table.

I would think the main reason for the rule would be to prevent something like this.

That rule is no longer in place under JACK management. But dealers are very good about making players keep their big chips out front or on top of their stacks.
 
There is a reason the first and last rule at my home game is, "Don't be a Dick".

I love the blue jeans pant vest Doug Polk rocks at the end of the vid. I would pay money to see him play vs. Torelli wearing that ensemble.
 
Polk produces solid content, and this video was fun. Had Torelli not made his own video, this would have been forgotten, but he messed up.

Don't think the two $5k chips should play. Wolf had a lateral view of Torelli, but he could see the orange $1k chips in front. That's where the the $5k chips should have been. Even if the floor let it stand, Torelli should have tossed Wolf $10k.
 
Rhodeman77 said:
If the big chips weren't up front it plain view they shouldn't be considered in play.

But the better should also make an effort to make sure he knows what his opponent has if he is planning on betting an amount equal to their stack.
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It is ultimately a player's responsibility to know the amount of their opponents chips. I believe there are even rules regarding if a player asks for a chip count and the dealer miscounts the player is still responsible for the full amount of the bet or all in.
 
tjohnsonnpu said:
It is ultimately a player's responsibility to know the amount of their opponents chips. I believe there are even rules regarding if a player asks for a chip count and the dealer miscounts the player is still responsible for the full amount of the bet or all in.
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TDA Rules:

24: Cards & Chips Kept Visible, Countable, & Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups
A: Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. The TDA recommends clean stacks of 20 chips each as a standard. Higher denomination chips must be visible and identifiable at all times.

49: Accepted Action
Poker is a game of alert, continuous observation. It is the caller’s responsibility to determine the correct amount of an opponent’s bet before calling, regardless of what is stated by others.

55: Count of Opponent’s Chip Stack
Players are entitled to a reasonable estimation of opponents’ chip stacks (Rule 24). A player may only request a more precise count if the action is on him and he faces an all-in bet. The all-in player is not required to count; on request the dealer or floor will count it. Accepted action applies (See Rule 49). The visible and countable chipstack rule (Rule 24) greatly helps accuracy in counting.

In the end if the TD thinks there should be a penalty he could give a 1 round penalty and go from there.
 
Based on the TDA rules, the person planning on betting/raising but first trying to estimate the hidden chip player's stack total is at a huge disadvantage here.

The rules claim it is his responsibility to determine the correct count, yet he is not granted the authority to request a precise count from the dealer or floor in this situation (since he is not facing an all-in bet). The specific rules as stated are flawed, and there is no redress for the damaged player in situations such as the OP scenario.

The best he can do is specifically ask the player/dealer/floor if there are any higher denomination chip that are not visible from his seat..... and can you imagine the mess it creates if this becomes a common request during somebody's action? At least if they show up later after he asks, he can point out that he used all means available to him to determine the player's correct count, and should not be punished for the deception.

Personally, I'd rule that the hidden chips could be won by player A, but not lost by player A -- essentially turning it into a partial free-roll for him..... and simultaneously applying an appropriate penalty to the player who was keeping them hidden even after being asked.

Yes, a penalty could be applied post-hand to the hidden chip player, but that does nothing to fix the problem, nor does it help the raiser in this instance.
 
Fortunately there is always rule #1
1: Floor Decisions
The best interest of the game and fairness are top priorities in decision-making. Unusual circumstances occasionally dictate that decisions in the interest of fairness take priority over technical rules. Floor decisions are final.

The TD could call for a "fairer" decision, like not including the "big chips" in the all in and still penalize the player to make sure people understand that this will not be tolerated. TDA is not perfect but they have it open enough that you can deviate from the rules when needed.
 
Oh, didn't realize this was a tournament.
 
upNdown said:
Regarding the original question, it's not.
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Then I retract my TD Stuff :oops:, sorry missread, I am not a frequent cash player but I understand the the rules/guidance for cash are a lot looser than tourney... So there is probably more "freedom" in the decision.:D
 

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