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Who has the rights to your photos submitted to Chipguide? Please READ (3 Viewers)

leo822 said:
And I agree with you that the CG photos should never be used for an auction...UNLESS YOU ARE THE RIGHTFUL OWNER OF THE CHIP USING YOUR OWN PHOTO THAT YOU SUBMITTED TO CG OF SAID CHIP! Why the heck would I not be able to use my own photo of my own chip? Because I submitted it to CG and they must approve it? Bullshit.
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I ran into this before actually. I wasn’t the submitter but the chip I posted was the exact chip that appears on CG. There’s a thread somewhere on here about it.

Outside of unlikely one-offs like that, I don’t mind giving a shout out/credit to CG. Copyright/legal ownership is a different story though.
 
leo822 said:
The issue is that he is pretty much saying he has ownership rights to any photo submitted to Chipguide. If you own a one of a kind chip and submit the photo to Chipguide....years down the line if you want to print a book or make a NFT using that photo...you could be in for a fight because he is setting up precedent that Chipguide does indeed own the rights to the original unedited photo because every time they assert that, it is never challenged. Kind of like that encroaching fence you let your friendly neighbor build all those years ago that is now pretty much his land.
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I know for a fact that there is multiple images of chips I own on chip guide that I DID NOT SUBMIT. with 3 brothers that are lawyers I sense multiple letters demanding their removal is in the air.

I also know who submitted said pictures, a CCA member and poker chip forum member. I think some action will take place there also. The pictures appearing on chip guide could only be submitted of my chips too as I’m the only guy that could possibly own the pictures shown and the picture was taken by me! Not submitted to chip guide but shown to a member here by request then bang, they went on the guide.

Yea you know who you are.
 
RivieraDanny said:
I know for a fact that there is multiple images of chips I own on chip guide that I DID NOT SUBMIT. with 3 brothers that are lawyers I sense multiple letters demanding their removal is in the air.

I also know who submitted said pictures, a CCA member and poker chip forum member. I think some action will take place there also. The pictures appearing on chip guide could only be submitted of my chips too as I’m the only guy that could possibly own the pictures shown and the picture was taken by me! Not submitted to chip guide but shown to a member here by request then bang, they went on the guide.

Yea you know who you are.
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1648529774972.png
 
RivieraDanny said:
I know for a fact that there is multiple images of chips I own on chip guide that I DID NOT SUBMIT. with 3 brothers that are lawyers I sense multiple letters demanding their removal is in the air.

I also know who submitted said pictures, a CCA member and poker chip forum member. I think some action will take place there also. The pictures appearing on chip guide could only be submitted of my chips too as I’m the only guy that could possibly own the pictures shown and the picture was taken by me! Not submitted to chip guide but shown to a member here by request then bang, they went on the guide.

Yea you know who you are.
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Shit! My bad
 
AFAIK, copyrights only work when it involve losing of accountable profit or money

So for example if I going to use a ChipGuide pic for my wanted ad, there is no loss of money or value from ChipGuide so there is nothing of any value for him to sue or demand for using the Pic
 
I'm going to start selling poker chip t-shirts with just a big ol' image of a chip "stolen" from the Chip Guide. Who wants one? Proceeds will go toward my legal fees for when Kaplan decides to burn his money coming after me for it.

PM if interested with which chips you'd like a t-shirt of.
 
RainmanTrail said:
I'm going to start selling poker chip t-shirts with just a big ol' image of a chip "stolen" from the Chip Guide. Who wants one? Proceeds will go toward my legal fees for when Kaplan decides to burn his money coming after me for it.

PM if interested with which chips you'd like a t-shirt of.
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I’ve already got t-shirts with chips on them. I’d prefer one with the name of your yacht on it….
“ The SS Rainmantrail “ ;) :p :ROFL: :ROFLMAO:
I’d wear it to all the meet ups Travis. :cool
 
AlbinoDragon said:
I interact via eBay auctions some club members who are absolutely stand-up folks, but after a handful of posts I saw on TCB I decided that they were a group I wasn't sure I wanted to be associated with. I feel a little bad that I'm not a CCA member, but despite what the the official word from the club says, TCB is the public face of the CCA. Ignoring the 1998 BBS nature of TCB, I saw enough there I was done with the club, even from an outsider but chip enthusiast.
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Agreed. There are definitely some wing-nut political views and borderline racist/sexist/homophobic posts there. Too much talk radio and Fox/OANN, not enough critical thinking.
 
Mr Kaplan's email to me this morning -
Emilio,

"Can someone explain to me how you can copyright a unaltered image donated by the rightful owner of the image?"

What we are protecting is the work that the ChipGuide Admins do to process a submission. That work includes:

Image Editing
o Lighting adjustments
o Rarely, color adjustments
o Cropping
o Straightening
o Removal of elements added after manufacture (like a price hand written on a postcard)
o Resizing
o Conversion to JPG format with a fixed compression setting

Attributing the chip to a casino. Sometimes this is easy, sometimes a lot of research is involved. Sometimes we just hit a dead end and the chip becomes a UFC (unknown location).

Asserting the chip into its proper place on the webpage with the correct description and attributes.

Furthermore, the ChipGuide code inserts internal information into the image (called EXIF) that is used for identification purposes.

The image as submitted is the property of the submitter. The image as it appears on the ChipGuide is the property of the ChipGuide. This is all that I know that was told to me by the CCA attorney. Legally, you would have to ask an attorney for more information, that is all that I know.

My response -

Charles,

I would suggest anyone not familiar with copyright to read this. It's very concise and informative.

How Much Do You Need To Alter An Image To Avoid Copyright Infringement – Healthy Lifestyle Tips and Travel (topofy.com)

It is my understanding that you can not have a new copyright on original work. In my opinion the changes the ChipGuide make to the photo are not enough to warrant it making claim to copyright. Indeed you may copyright the website page and HOW the photos are used which would include it's attribution...but not the photo itself. That is why EVERY website or publication CREDITS the use of any photo not theirs to the original owner. Furthermore, there is no provenance on a large portion of the photos in ChipGuide. You have a multitude of images on the website that are anonymous or even stranger NEW submissions credited to people who are dead or retired from chipping and could not possibly still be contributing,

It is my belief that EVERY submission should have the contributor listed...and if that person's estate is submitting it then let that be stated as well. You are enabling theft of intellectual property by not doing so.

I personally do not feel that my images are going to be handled responsibly and more importantly legally in the future. It has been demonstrated to me that the inherent nature and spirit of the submission and what it was meant for is becoming clouded and more in line with building an asset for the MOGH and not a tool for all of us chippers to use. It is also my contention that the wording of the ChipGuide be changed to "image courtesy of" as opposed to "submitted by". This will better clarify that I as the owner of the copyrighted image am giving you permission to use my photo for your fair use...as opposed to me GIVING you the photo and relinquishing all rights to it's use in the future. You have stated that your changes make my photo a new copyrighted item for you to do with as you please. I beg to differ.

If the Chipguide is of the belief that submitted photos after they have been cropped and EXIF'd are now NEW entities to do with as they wish, I respectfully ask that my donated pictures be removed from your website without delay.

Thank you for you attention to this matter
 
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mnebesny said:
My understand is that the artist retains the copyright for any photo they take, unless they explicitly sell it or give it up. The submission page doesn't say anything to this nature, so my understanding is that you've given them the rights to use your photo, as in publication rights ("Upon submission, permission is granted to the Museum of Gaming History to use the item on the ChipGuide and for other purposes"), but you don't give up your rights, so they should not be able to restrict you from using the image yourself for any reason, or from licensing it to other people.

http://chipguide.themogh.org/cg_submission2.php

Perhaps @Eloe2000 or someone more knowledgeable than me could weigh in.
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I haven't read this thread or the linked articles. But generally speaking the creator of an image owns the copyright upon its creation (unless created under certain types of employment or other contractual obligation). All social media sites that allow content uploads address copyright in some shape or form. Certainly a copyright owner does not transfer their copyright just by uploading a photo to a website. But websites/social media sites do need to address copyright because they need usage rights to be able to display (distribute) that image. Some websites get a little more grabby with rights than others however. I don't know the technical requirements of disclaimers/opt-outs/agreements/etc. to make copyright usage/transfer valid and enforceable but from what it looks like there is only a basic usage agreement on the submission page. So in no way does Chipguide have any right to assert copyright privilege over usage by others. It does get a little murky when the image is watermarked. But it must also be noted that their submission policy does not give them the specific right to alter the photographs. So if they were to claim that the watermarked version is copyrighted by them and therefore they can request takedown, then they may be in violation of their own Submission agreement.

ChipGuide Submission Policy
Images and descriptions of items not currently on the ChipGuide may be submitted for consideration to be added to the ChipGuide. The ChipGuide has a submission form for this purpose. Upon submission, permission is granted to the Museum of Gaming History to use the item on the ChipGuide and for other purposes. Submitters must own the images submitted or have permission to submit them. At the discretion of the ChipGuide, submitted items may or may not be used and may be edited to meet ChipGuide guidelines. Submitted items will not be returned.
 
leo822 said:
Mr Kaplan's email to me this morning -
Emilio,

"Can someone explain to me how you can copyright a unaltered image donated by the rightful owner of the image?"

What we are protecting is the work that the ChipGuide Admins do to process a submission. That work includes:

Image Editing
o Lighting adjustments
o Rarely, color adjustments
o Cropping
o Straightening
o Removal of elements added after manufacture (like a price hand written on a postcard)
o Resizing
o Conversion to JPG format with a fixed compression setting

Attributing the chip to a casino. Sometimes this is easy, sometimes a lot of research is involved. Sometimes we just hit a dead end and the chip becomes a UFC (unknown location).

Asserting the chip into its proper place on the webpage with the correct description and attributes.

Furthermore, the ChipGuide code inserts internal information into the image (called EXIF) that is used for identification purposes.

The image as submitted is the property of the submitter. The image as it appears on the ChipGuide is the property of the ChipGuide. This is all that I know that was told to me by the CCA attorney. Legally, you would have to ask an attorney for more information, that is all that I know.

My response -

Charles,

I would suggest anyone not familiar with copyright to read this. It's very concise and informative.

How Much Do You Need To Alter An Image To Avoid Copyright Infringement – Healthy Lifestyle Tips and Travel (topofy.com)

It is my understanding that you can not have a new copyright on original work. In my opinion the changes the ChipGuide make to the photo are not enough to warrant it making claim to copyright. Indeed you may copyright the website page and HOW the photos are used which would include it's attribution...but not the photo itself. That is why EVERY website or publication CREDITS the use of any photo not theirs to the original owner. Furthermore, there is no provenance on a large portion of the photos in ChipGuide. You have a multitude of images on the website that are anonymous or even stranger NEW submissions credited to people who are dead or retired from chipping and could not possibly still be contributing,

It is my belief that EVERY submission should have the contributor listed...and if that person's estate is submitting it then let that be stated as well. You are enabling theft of intellectual property by not doing so.

I personally do not feel that my images are going to be handled responsibly and more importantly legally in the future. It has been demonstrated to me that the inherit nature and spirit of the submission and what it was meant for is becoming clouded and more in line with building an asset for the MOGH and not a tool for all of us chippers to use. It is also my contention that the wording of the ChipGuide be changed to "image courtesy of" as opposed to "submitted by". This will better clarify that I as the owner of the copyrighted image am giving you permission to use my photo for your fair use...as opposed to me GIVING you the photo and relinquishing all rights to it's use in the future. You have stated that your changes make my photo a new copyrighted item for you to do with as you please. I beg to differ.

If the Chipguide is of the belief that submitted photos after they have been cropped and EXIF'd are now NEW entities to do with as they wish, I respectfully ask that my donated pictures be removed from your website without haste.

Thank you for you attention to this matter
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So the lawyer in me still comes out sometimes. Just beat him at his own game if you want.

If someone needs a pic off the Chip Guide. Just remove the EXIF, change from JPEG to any other format and crop it a little. Voila, it’s a new pic to be copyrighted over which they have no claim pursuant to his email.

I know that isn’t your goal and I support you completely but it would be fun for someone to do this and when he sends a notification to stop using just forward his email back to him.
 
In full disclosure Mr Kaplan wrote me a very nice response in a tone that I can only describe as sincere and well meaning. I think the MOGH is going to look for legal council pertaining to the images and their use so hopefully we get productive changes that both sides will be happy with. I love the idea of the Chipguide...just not that way it is run right now.

As far as the elections are concerned the dirty laundry of the club is coming out in full force. One of the issues I knew about and brought up to the club before but never heard back from is the inventory of donated collections. There have been many donated collections to the club but as of yet there has not been an itemized inventory of what they have. Many have said it's a free for all in the storage room with some of the privileged few having access to whatever they want. If an audit of the current holdings doesn't match up to what was originally donated....mama mia.
 
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gopherblue said:
Agreed. There are definitely some wing-nut political views and borderline racist/sexist/homophobic posts there. Too much talk radio and Fox/OANN, not enough critical thinking.
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That’s funny, because the last blatant racist post over there was from one of you tolerant, open-minded, leftist lunatics. CNN/MSNBC and whatever commie news you watch is nothing but the truth, right? GTFO. Talk about “not enough critical thinking.”
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.. ;)
I studied Title 17 a bit while in college (many moons ago).
As soon as I take a photo, I automatically have copyright protection for that photo under the law.
I have submitted photos (true works of art :)) to Charles that have been used on the Chip Guide; giving CG permission to use the images.
I did not transfer ownership of any images submitted. I have not given permission for those images to be used for profit.
I still own the photos I have taken. I can make any prints or derivative works I want.
CG does make adjustments to the images (e.g. cropping and color adjustment).
Personally, I don't believe this constitutes a derivative work as the alterations are simply too minor.
Think an actual copyright lawyer would need to determine if they would be able to copyright it as a derivative work.

I realise CG use policy states:

  1. Images and descriptions (but not entire webpages) may be used for non-commercial purposes, such as educational purposes or trade lists, if the source is identified as "The Museum of Gaming History's ChipGuide".
But this is just their policy, not the law.
I try to note when I use an image from the CG on PCF as a bit of a courtesy, but I'm not concerned if I forget as I don't legally need to cite the owner of the image if I am just reposting it somewhere discussing a chip, etc. that is not for commercial profit.
This falls under Fair Use as I see it (again, not a copyright lawyer).

I do agree with the images not being used for commercial / profit purposes without consent by the copyright owner.
I don't agree with chasing/chastising people for just using an image for non profit purposes, If that is what is occurring.

I also believe they need a policy that if you are 60 or under, you should not be allowed to submit a scan of a chip that has crappy incorrect colors and looks horrible...
You have a Camera in your hand Every Day... have some dignity and take a freakin' high def picture already!
 
Tommy said:
All kinds of accusations going on there with those in charge and up for re-election. Reading btw the lines.. 11k, embezzlement. :unsure:
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http://www.thechipboard.com/index.c...4471/sbj/mr-kaplan-u-need-to-apologize-again/

popped in my head.. also has a copyright tie in ;)

It's gettin', it's gettin', it's gettin' kinda hectic
quality, I possess something, I'm fresh
When my voice goes through the rest
of the microphone that I am holdin'
copy written lyrics so they can't be stolen
 

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