99 on the flop 3-ways (2 Viewers)

Eriks

Eriks

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Remembered a hand from my last homegame where I was really unsure what to do. I don’t remember exact stack sizes but all involved bought in for 200bbs and I’m sure the involved players had at least that and probably not a whole lot more when the hand occured.

NLH SEK 5/5 ($0.5/0.5) 8-handed

Table has a mix of players, a couple of complete recs, a few pretty good ones, and a couple in between. Most pots are opened pre but there is very little 3-betting. Opens generally get several callers.

HJ - Hero. Have been really card dead for the first hour or two and have been folding a LOT pre.

BTN - Been pretty active. Made a nice rivercall with A-high and was correct in a small to medium pot. Tons of history with hero. Fights for pots, likes to float. Bluffs too much imo. Isn’t very aggressive pre with 3- and 4-bets. Have seen him just flat opens with premium hands.

BB - don’t know too much about this player. Seems decent in that he mostly uses decent bet sizes, seems positionally aware etc. But hasn’t shown down much of interest yet.


Two limps in front of me in the hijack and I make it 30 with

:9c::9h:

CO folds
BTN calls
SB folds
BB calls
Limpers fold (!)

(Pot 105)

:3d::5h::8d:

BB checks
Hero?
 
Like to think we are ahead, but can not think of many turn cards we will like to see, could check with intention of check raising...
 
you should be cbetting with most of your iso range on this board, but since it's multiway and not HU, you want to betting smaller and less. If the player is known to be sticky, why would you size up? given V description, he could be flatting TT+/AJ+.

Cbetting large on this texture doesn't make too much sense to me, if he's just going to call with most of his range. What is V going to fold that you're behind? When an overcard comes, do you just give up after investing so much? You can bet something like 40 here, and re-evaluate on the turn (or if V or BB raises you).

Checking here wouldn't even be terrible since its multiway, but 99 may want "protection".
 
Eriks said:
Remembered a hand from my last homegame where I was really unsure what to do. I don’t remember exact stack sizes but all involved bought in for 200bbs and I’m sure the involved players had at least that and probably not a whole lot more when the hand occured.

NLH SEK 5/5 ($0.5/0.5) 8-handed

Table has a mix of players, a couple of complete recs, a few pretty good ones, and a couple in between. Most pots are opened pre but there is very little 3-betting. Opens generally get several callers.

HJ - Hero. Have been really card dead for the first hour or two and have been folding a LOT pre.

BTN - Been pretty active. Made a nice rivercall with A-high and was correct in a small to medium pot. Tons of history with hero. Fights for pots, likes to float. Bluffs too much imo. Isn’t very aggressive pre with 3- and 4-bets. Have seen him just flat opens with premium hands.

BB - don’t know too much about this player. Seems decent in that he mostly uses decent bet sizes, seems positionally aware etc. But hasn’t shown down much of interest yet.


Two limps in front of me in the hijack and I make it 30 with

:9c::9h:

CO folds
BTN calls
SB folds
BB calls
Limpers fold (!)

(Pot 105)

:3d::5h::8d:

BB checks
Hero?
Click to expand...
You could bet or check here. A small bet should get the job done. Maybe 40-50. Fold out some over card equity and get a hand like 78 or 67 to call.
 
Moxie Mike said:
With a sticky, potentially tricky/trappy opponent on the button I'm going to make it pricey to continue. $100 seems about right.
Click to expand...
Seems like you will get folds from anything we are beating and calls from hands that beat us. What would you do with AK-AT here? Would you check back or make the same bet? If you would check with your over cards but bet big with your over pairs, you are going to be pretty easy to figure out. A large bet with all your hands on a board that obviously does not favor the preflop raiser is going to put you in some hard spots.
 
perfectjawnz said:
you should be cbetting with most of your iso range on this board, but since it's multiway and not HU, you want to betting smaller and less. If the player is known to be sticky, why would you size up? given V description, he could be flatting TT+/AJ+.

Cbetting large on this texture doesn't make too much sense to me, if he's just going to call with most of his range. What is V going to fold that you're behind? When an overcard comes, do you just give up after investing so much? You can bet something like 40 here, and re-evaluate on the turn (or if V or BB raises you).

Checking here wouldn't even be terrible since its multiway, but 99 may want "protection".
Click to expand...

grebe said:
You could bet or check here. A small bet should get the job done. Maybe 40-50. Fold out some over card equity and get a hand like 78 or 67 to call.
Click to expand...
I like your reasoning and I like the idea of betting on the smaller side in a 3-way pot on a flop that’s not very good for my range.
 
Hand continues..and here’s the point in the hand where I was lost

Two limps in front of me in the hijack and I make it 30 with

:9c::9h:

CO folds
BTN calls
SB folds
BB calls
Limpers fold (!)

(Pot 105)

:3d::5h::8d:

BB checks
Hero bets 75
BTN calls
BB minraises to 150
Hero?
 
I c-bet the flop smaller on that board. (something like 40)
A smaller bet protects enough vs random overcards and doesn't get you in hot water if you've been outflopped.
You bet pretty big and you get checkraised by an unknown who appearantly wants a call by both other players out of position. The BB could be drawing to a straight or a flush where he takes one or both of your outs to a miracle 9.
As I see it nothing good can come out of this hand down the line.

When I'm playing seriously, I sigh fold here and wait for a better spot.

In a friendly 5ct/5ct game of course I call and do a big card funeral on the river, curse my bad luck loudly and try to get the person on his way to the loo to bring me another beer.
 
Eriks said:
BB checks
Hero bets 75
BTN calls
BB minraises to 150
Hero?
Click to expand...

Call. V could be doing this with a diamond draw plus other hands we beat such as A8 or 87. This is a "let me see where I'm at" or "raise now, get two cards for free" bet. It's actually probably a good spot to re-raise now that I lay it out like that. How would this guy play sets? Wait until the turn?
 
grebe said:
Call. V could be doing this with a diamond draw plus other hands we beat such as A8 or 87. This is a "let me see where I'm at" or "raise now, get two cards for free" bet. It's actually probably a good spot to re-raise now that I lay it out like that. How would this guy play sets? Wait until the turn?
Click to expand...
He can be aggressive with big hands as well as draws but I would say that his aggression is slightly imbalanced towards draws/bluffs. I also think that he doesn't always properly re-evalutes hand strength in multiway pots vs in hu pots.
 
grebe said:
Call. V could be doing this with a diamond draw plus other hands we beat such as A8 or 87. This is a "let me see where I'm at" or "raise now, get two cards for free" bet. It's actually probably a good spot to re-raise now that I lay it out like that. How would this guy play sets? Wait until the turn?
Click to expand...
The problem with a call is, there is practically no card in the deck we want to see on turn or river.
We'd need both players to check it down to not be put into silly spots later on with our 1 pair hand without much chance for improvement. Heads up in position? Yeah, peel a card or two, but 3 ways with a player who'll have position on us for the rest of the hand?
The only way to stay out of tough spots later on is to raise big here, but do we want do to that with pretty much the worst hand we can have here to 3! ?
 
Flop:

This texture doesn't really favor your range. So checking makes some sense especially against multiple players. BUT, exploitatively, you should just be betting here with all your overpairs most of the time since people call too much and too wide. You still don't have to go too large though since most Broadway hands are just going to fold and any draw is going to call pretty much any sizing. I'm not sure how much protection we actually get from betting honestly since pure misses with overs shouldn't be calling multiway very much. And as noted, any draw with overs is calling no matter what. And those hands have such high equity against us that we aren't protecting much.

We can't fold to the min raise with an overpair. Call and play a turn.

Things to think about moving forward though:

Villain can have all the sets.
Can villain ever have TT-JJ?
Would villain min raise diamonds?
Would villain raise 78 or A8 or 67?

Funny enough, I think the best cards for us on the turn are Broadway cards. And 3s and 5s. They would be better for our range and would have some chance of getting a check check on the turn. Which is basically what we want at this point.
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
The problem with a call is, there is practically no card in the deck we want to see on turn or river.
We'd need both players to check it down to not be put into silly spots later on with our 1 pair hand without much chance for improvement. Heads up in position? Yeah, peel a card or two, but 3 ways with a player who'll have position on us for the rest of the hand?
The only way to stay out of tough spots later on is to raise big here, but do we want do to that with pretty much the worst hand we can have here to 3! ?
Click to expand...
This was my problem, none of the options seemed very attractive. Of course magnified by the large c-bet
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
The problem with a call is, there is practically no card in the deck we want to see on turn or river.
We'd need both players to check it down to not be put into silly spots later on with our 1 pair hand without much chance for improvement. Heads up in position? Yeah, peel a card or two, but 3 ways with a player who'll have position on us for the rest of the hand?
The only way to stay out of tough spots later on is to raise big here, but do we want do to that with pretty much the worst hand we can have here to 3! ?
Click to expand...
So are you advocating a fold?

Actually, pretty much anything not a diamond or an 8 is not terrible. Any Q+ and we can apply pressure, repping our preflop raising range. I just don't see BB's hand being a set. If he is a thinking player, he could have any two cards and he is making you pay for your loose Cbet on a flop that does not favor you. My money is on he has some draw...diamonds being the far away favorite, or he has top pair. No idea what BTN is doing yet.

The more I think about it, I like a 3 bet/fold line.
 
grebe said:
So are you advocating a fold?
Click to expand...
Yup.
grebe said:
Actually, pretty much anything not a diamond or an 8 is not terrible. Any Q+ and we can apply pressure, repping our preflop raising range. I just don't see BB's hand being a set. If he is a thinking player, he could have any two cards and he is making you pay for your loose Cbet on a flop that does not favor you. My money is on he has some draw...diamonds being the far away favorite, or he has top pair. No idea what BTN is doing yet.

The more I think about it, I like a 3 bet/fold line.
Click to expand...
Giving villain a range of good flush draws, oesd A8/K8 and monsters, hero has 48,7% equity if it were heads up (!) and if he'd get to realize all of his equity at showdown.

IMG_20220317_133859.jpg
IMG_20220317_133846.jpg


Since we are not heads up and hero will probably have to pay a lot more if he calls or bloats the pot himself on the flop with a 3! when he is already behind (equity-wise), I lean towards a tight fold.

This gets only worse since I range villain more towards monsters than flush draws.

Without any other reads, I view him as a recreational player because of his flop play.
Min c/r is obviously not an ideal line.
If he has a FD/oesd/gut shot, he doesn't gain a free river because he's out of position and an open check on the turn will open up betting to hero und button again.
Most recs I put in this category reserve a c/r for their absolute monsters (at least they think they are nutted) and donk or c/c their medium holdings/flush draws.

I think villain could easily show up with some weirdly played AA here.

Any way I look at it, I like a fold here.
 
I sigh call the min raise. Hero is likely ahead here, for now. Both villains are on draws here, I think. Sets would be raising more on a wet and connected board like this. High pocket pairs wouldn't be so passive preflop.
 
OfficerLovejoy said:
Yup.

Giving villain a range of good flush draws, oesd A8/K8 and monsters, hero has 48,7% equity if it were heads up (!) and if he'd get to realize all of his equity at showdown.

View attachment 880067View attachment 880068

Since we are not heads up and hero will probably have to pay a lot more if he calls or bloats the pot himself on the flop with a 3! when he is already behind (equity-wise), I lean towards a tight fold.

This gets only worse since I range villain more towards monsters than flush draws.

Without any other reads, I view him as a recreational player because of his flop play.
Min c/r is obviously not an ideal line.
If he has a FD/oesd/gut shot, he doesn't gain a free river because he's out of position and an open check on the turn will open up betting to hero und button again.
Most recs I put in this category reserve a c/r for their absolute monsters (at least they think they are nutted) and donk or c/c their medium holdings/flush draws.

I think villain could easily show up with some weirdly played AA here.

Any way I look at it, I like a fold here.
Click to expand...
I will just say I disagree with this range. I guess he could show up with specifically AA here because recs do silly stuff, but I don't think anyone is flatting KK-JJ here just out of sheer terror for over cards flopping. I would HIGHLY discount AA being played this way after A RAISE AND A CALL.

Actually, because of the button calling, I will say that anyone that plays AA as a call from the blinds is straight up awful at poker and any money they win from this hand will surely pour my way eventually and I will happily pay them off.

Also, min raises by recs are a lot of different things....most of them are "I want to see where Im at". I would put them in the same bucket as a donk bet. I have no respect for donk bets, btw, especially if they are for the minimum. I basically treat them as a check.
 
Pre-flop: Played it standard, no notes.

Flop: Villains should not have overpairs here and there are a *ton* of draws on this board. If you are thinking of folding an overpair here, you should think a bit if your overall game is too tight. Getting these odds, with the overpair, you really can't ever fold to a min raise. BB shows up *so often* with the A8 type of hand here, as well as a ton of draws. Never fold please. While I rarely advocate for a "raise to see where you are at" line, this might be a good spot to do exactly that. You could even click him back to get BTN out and see how the bb responds.

Once we call (or raise), we should assume that BTN will fold a lot of his hands unless they are very strong draws. Weak draws are pretty bad for him to call with, given the aggression/strength from you and the BB. We go heads up to the turn, in position, and evaluate at that point.
 
grebe said:
How about this range for BB:

View attachment 880122
Click to expand...
In my experience most recs donk weak hands like 77 or 44 to see where they're at and not min c/r them vs a bet and a call.
This range seems waaaaay too wide to me but I guess we're playing in different player pools, so we all might be correct. ;)

We can agree though that hero is unlikely to improve and will likely face some tough decisions down the line.

With higher overpairs that include a diamond (redraw if the 3rd diamond hits on the turn) and don't complete the oesd if hit I might take this hand all the way but here I am happy to fold and get his money in a later hand.
And yes, I'm a fking nit. Just ask @Coyote ;)
 
Well, you all see where this is going. I just didn’t see myself getting to showdown cheaply and with BTN left to act I sigh folded. Really regret the big c-bet.

But the analysis isn’t over. For extra credit you can try and put the villains on some hands. After I folded BTN backraised, making it somewhere around 350-400 (can’t remember exactly). BB shows his cards and folds pretty quickly. BTN drags the pot and shows as well.
 

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