$1/2 NLHE: Top top shorthanded OOP (3 Viewers)

[jbutler]

Picture if you will a game on the brink of death, a game in which the big winners and the big losers have shuffled off this mortal coil into the night to donk no more. This is the game I entered late one night recently. Five players including one I've never seen before who ended up being the relevant villain in this hand.

I have less than ten hands of history with this guy and we both folded or limped/called and folded flop so nothing of note as we enter the subject hand. He does have a little more than the rest of the table, sitting at about $500 while the other stacks are about $100, $250, and $300. A few hands prior to this the short stack busted, so we were down to four. No need to even discuss the other two.

I throw out a $5 straddle with a $300 stack. I get what I think is one caller and make it $15 when it gets back to me with AJo. Then I realize the unknown villain had completed the straddle from the button. He was in the 1 seat and I was in the 10 seat so I had simply missed his chip being thrown out (only mention because I'd have either checked or raised more if I'd known I had two callers). Unknown villain calls the $15 and the other caller folds.

Flop ($37): J62r

I bet $20 and unknown villain immediately makes it $45. My play?

 

[gopherblue]

F#ck if I know...I'm just here to look at the pretty pretty chipes.

 

[Chicken Rob]

You have a pretty strong hand, especially short handed. You want to get value, but At the same time you don't want to stack off to this mook. I call and reevaluate his show of strength on the turn.

(In real life I probably 3 bet/fold to a bluff).

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Usually a min raise would indicate a very strong hand, but a lot of times people who flop sets in position will flat and raise the turn. If he had you beat pre you most likely would have heard about it, and it's really tough to see him flopping two pair on this board. That said, we are out of position, and I hate giving up control of the hand, so I make it $145 with the intention of stacking off. If he has 22 or 66, nh gg.

 

[Adam Crowley]

I might be the only person who writes this, and being at the table is different to talking after the fact.

Without any information it's hard to define your edge. I consider folding to be the best play here.

If I was at the table I'm calling and evalutating turn, I am probably calling all 3 streets here as long as the bets don't get crazy. If you have been playing aggressive since he has been at the table my best guess is he is trying to counter relentless chatting.

I don't think any option is terrible at this point. He reps next to nothing or has no idea what he is doing.

 

[Chicken Rob]

The move is to tell him you have top top and try to get a read.

 

[bergs]

Sucks he has position because we can't raise to $120 and check behind if he calls and checks turn, or fold if he leads. Check-raise is usually a pretty strong move on the flop, particularly at 1/2 (I wish you knew more about his play history, does he play at the casino, is a regular NLHE players, etc). Normal 1/2 player that does this either has 66, 22, AJ, or 62 (loose button call but you didn't raise enough to push him off it). There is no straight and no flush draw so he's not betting a nut flush draw or OESD. Outside chance he has QQ but it'd be a fancy play because he'd be flatting in position preflop with a premium pocket pair (this is the hand that we could move off with a $120 raise on this flop).

I think you have to call here and re-evaluate turn.

 

[jbutler]

If you have been playing aggressive since he has been at the table my best guess is he is trying to counter relentless chatting.

Just to be clear, I hadn't played any notable hands in his presence. I did raise once, c-bet the flop and took down the pot. Otherwise it's been a lot of folding.

Check-raise is usually a pretty strong move on the flop, particularly at 1/2 (I wish you knew more about his play history, does he play at the casino, is a regular NLHE players, etc).

He had position, so it wasn't a check-raise, but I still think it's a bit of an unusual play here with this board texture. Even if he had a big hand, why put in a raise? Of course, we know he should put in a small raise with a big hand in order to begin building a pot, but most $1/2 players don't understand this and will typically "milk" you by flatting to keep you interested.

Anyway, I didn't see any value in raising. Best case scenario he has KJ. He'd have to be a giant donk to stack off for 150 BBs with KJ here and I have no reason to believe he's a giant donk.

So I flatted.

Turn ($127): [J62r] 9s

This now puts out two spades. I think we're all fairly clear on a check here if we chose to flat the flop. I check. He bets $45.

Thoughts on turn?

 

[DrStrange]

I recommend calling for that price. Hero has picked his poison and shouldn't take another aggressive action this hand.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Just to be clear, I hadn't played any notable hands in his presence. I did raise once, c-bet the flop and took down the pot. Otherwise it's been a lot of folding.



He had position, so it wasn't a check-raise, but I still think it's a bit of an unusual play here with this board texture. Even if he had a big hand, why put in a raise? Of course, we know he should put in a small raise with a big hand in order to begin building a pot, but most $1/2 players don't understand this and will typically "milk" you by flatting to keep you interested.

Anyway, I didn't see any value in raising. Best case scenario he has KJ. He'd have to be a giant donk to stack off for 150 BBs with KJ here and I have no reason to believe he's a giant donk.

So I flatted.

Turn ($127): [J62r] 9s

This now puts out two spades. I think we're all fairly clear on a check here if we chose to flat the flop. I check. He bets $45.

Thoughts on turn?

He probably wasn't on a draw. unless he had something like 45 with a backdoor flush draw, so my guess is he had a worse jack or a pocket pair between 66 and JJ "to see where he is at." the 9 I would just shovel it in here, and hope he didn't turn two pair or a set.

 

[courage]

I'm min-raising him back on the turn to see if he notices the irony then stacking off to his QJ before the river Q hits.

 

[bergs]

I'm min-raising him back on the turn to see if he notices the irony then stacking off to his QJ before the river Q hits.

Irony-raising is a standard play here. I'm mock-checking any river (something like "I'll check to Pee Wee Fucking Herman") and then spite-calling if Pee-Wee bets. Solid line.

 

[bergs]

Sorta feels like he has AJ. You'd be doing what he's doing with positions reversed.

 

[jbutler]

Sorta feels like he has AJ. You'd be doing what he's doing with positions reversed.

Yeah this is what I was thinking as well at the time.

FWIW when he bet the turn it was immediate. I checked pretty much as soon as the turn fell and he had his chips over the line before I even finished tapping the table.

Moving along, I called the turn.

River ($207) [J629ss] 5o

I check, against pretty much immediately, and again without any time whatsoever he throws $60 over the line in a really messily, splashing 12 chips across the table.

Anyone doing anything but calling here?

So far the only alternative lines argued for were @Adam Crowley's argument that we should consider folding the flop (which I don't think is unreasonable at all) and @Chippy McChiperson's argument that we should 3-bet the flop and, failing that, jam the turn. In my view we are WA/WB on both the flop and the turn, so I don't think I can get behind this play. I think we get the vast majority of lesser hands to fold the flop and most of them also to fold the turn unless the guy has a tendency to hero call overbets, which I have no reason to suspect.

 

[Forty4]

I'm thinking AJ and 22 are both possibilities with the way it's played out. He's not folding either of those hands if you were to show aggression now. The back to back 1/3 pot size bets are a little off to me. Kind of a mix of blocking/value bet, if that makes any sense. Pay the $60 to find out what is going on.

 

[onerand]

Check raise all in is a pot size raise and my vote

 

[Chicken Rob]

I agree with WA/WB analysis, and my limit poker training says get to showdown cheap in that position. I just call.

 

[bergs]

I flat there.

 

[jbutler]

Check raise all in is a pot size raise and my vote

Roman, I'd like to hear your rationale if you'd care to expand. What hands that we beat do you think would call? Or do you think we have a chance of bluffing out the unlikely overpair?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Don't you think villain would call with KJ (or maybe even QJ)? there are 8 possible combos of KJ, and 6 of 66 and 22 combined. I doubt very highly villain has an overpair in this spot.

 

[Adam Crowley]

I think calling is the standard move. That said I expect him to have AJ, KJ, QJ and just be a terrible player. Due to lack of information I would always call to guarantee I get the information from him.

Raising has some benefits all Broadway J's call or we fold out the AJ chop, depending on the type of player he is.

 

[jbutler]

Don't you think villain would call with KJ (or maybe even QJ)? there are 8 possible combos of KJ, and 6 of 66 and 22 combined. I doubt very highly villain has an overpair in this spot.

I think calling is the standard move. That said I expect him to have AJ, KJ, QJ and just be a terrible player. Due to lack of information I would always call to guarantee I get the information from him.

Raising has some benefits all Broadway J's call or we fold out the AJ chop, depending on the type of player he is.

Yeah I also doubt villain has an overpair. I've seen some guys who like to flat with QQ pre then put on the gas when there's a no ace no king flop, but usually those are older guys in my experience.

If I thought any single-paired J would call, I would definitely agree with the raise, but I don't see a ton of stacking off with top pair in NLHE games around here.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Honestly, if you jam the river, your line doesn't make a lot of sense. It would seem to be very polarizing, and I could see you getting called by 77, 88, 99 or TT even if he's a thinking player and puts you on a monster or nothing type hand.

 

[Adam Crowley]

He is more likely to call if he is a thinking player. I'm guessing by his bet sizing that he doesn't think that deep into the game. Also the instant bets with no thought support this theory.

If raising I would never ship it. Looks a bit too strong and I can only expect worse to call from someone proficient in hand reading and is super cofortable stacking off a few BI.

 

[onerand]

Roman, I'd like to hear your rationale if you'd care to expand. What hands that we beat do you think would call? Or do you think we have a chance of bluffing out the unlikely overpair?

KJ or QJ, maybe another jack thats thinks you lost your head with AK or TT. You are ahead very often here, and villan just bet 1/3 pot on the turn. Stacks are right for the move. People who think you are overplaying top pair will hesitate to raise your flop and turn bets. Calling turn semms better if your plan is to check call or check jam most rivers. Maybe check call and insta jam any river.

 

[jbutler]

Honestly, if you jam the river, your line doesn't make a lot of sense. It would seem to be very polarizing, and I could see you getting called by 77, 88, 99 or TT even if he's a thinking player and puts you on a monster or nothing type hand.

KJ or QJ, maybe another jack thats thinks you lost your head with AK or TT. You are ahead very often here, and villan just bet 1/3 pot on the turn. Stacks are right for the move. People who think you are overplaying top pair will hesitate to raise your flop and turn bets. Calling turn semms better if your plan is to check call or check jam most rivers. Maybe check call and insta jam any river.

Okay you guys have convinced me. I consider both of you better players than me in NLHE, so I'm glad to take the advice.

Results: I flatted and the guy tabled QJo.

My point in starting the thread was to see if I had left money on the table and I think I'm satisfied that at least some percentage of the time, he would call with his hand.

 

[onerand]

Okay you guys have convinced me. I consider both of you better players than me in NLHE, so I'm glad to take the advice.

Results: I flatted and the guy tabled QJo.

My point in starting the thread was to see if I had left money on the table and I think I'm satisfied that at least some percentage of the time, he would call with his hand.

I promise you are a better player than I am. This is a trickier spot with a bet of $90 or so on the turn. Sometimes the guy who makes the tiny turn bet has a set snd you value own yourself.

 

[jbutler]

I promise you are a better player than I am. This is a trickier spot with a bet of $90 or so on the turn. Sometimes the guy who makes the tiny turn bet has a set snd you value own yourself.

Guys, take note. True professional here. Even trying to keep the fish happy when we don't see each other for months/years at a time.

 

[bergs]

Okay you guys have convinced me. I consider both of you better players than me in NLHE, so I'm glad to take the advice.

Results: I flatted and the guy tabled QJo.

My point in starting the thread was to see if I had left money on the table and I think I'm satisfied that at least some percentage of the time, he would call with his hand.

I'm never leaving this table. Ever. Game confirmed awesome.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Okay you guys have convinced me. I consider both of you better players than me in NLHE, so I'm glad to take the advice.

Results: I flatted and the guy tabled QJo.

My point in starting the thread was to see if I had left money on the table and I think I'm satisfied that at least some percentage of the time, he would call with his hand.

You are definitely a better player than I am, and you did what I would do. You probably should do what chippy/onerand do.