$1/3 NL: KK UTG 4-handed (1 Viewer)

[jbutler]

Have been thinking about this hand since it went down the other night and have gone back and forth on how I think I played it. So we'll just take it one step at a time and everyone can tell me how dumb I am.

The game is 4-handed, but only me and SB and BB are relevant. I have about $450 in front of me. SB has $300ish. He's a pretty standard loose passive fish who will occasionally bluff for no recognizable reason. Only relevant history between us is that I called him down three streets with ace high earlier and was good for a $150ish pot. BB has $600ish and has been up and down all night. We've played some significant pots, but none went to showdown. He did see me shove on his wife earlier with a flush draw and brick out (SB did not see this hand).

I pick up KK UTG and raise to $15 which has been more or less the standard open. Both SB and BB call.

Flop ($45): 3x6d7d

SB checks. BB bets $20. My action?

 

[gopherblue]

Fold. Beaten by straight.

 

[bergs]

Bet $40.

 

[upNdown]

My first reaction is that with those draws, I'd want to keep the pot small, but I'd need to bet something, to get some information. But on second thought? 4 handed? I'm not crediting anybody with squat and I'm gonna throw out $35 and hope to take it down.

 

[jbutler]

Fold. Beaten by straight.

Bet $40.

My first reaction is that with those draws, I'd want to keep the pot small, but I'd need to bet something, to get some information. But on second thought? 4 handed? I'm not crediting anybody with squat and I'm gonna throw out $35 and hope to take it down.

Sorry guys I already fucked up the hand in the OP, but it's edited/fixed now.

BB didn't check - he donked for $20 into me.

So with his lead of $20, what's my action on the flop with SB to act behind me?

 

[upNdown]

Call

 

[Mental Nomad]

Question:

You said this is only a 4-handed game and you opened with the standard raise. In this game, is that a "blinds nearly always call" situation, or a "likely heads-up flop" situation?

Trying to get a better feel for their likely holdings, beyond SB being loose/passive.

 

[jbutler]

Question:

You said this is only a 4-handed game and you opened with the standard raise. In this game, is that a "blinds nearly always call" situation, or a "likely heads-up flop" situation?

Trying to get a better feel for their likely holdings, beyond SB being loose/passive.

SB is calling with prob 70% of his hands. BB is calling with prob 30% of his hands.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Donk bet usually means he has a pair and he's probing to see where you're at. Three haneed I'm probably raising, and raising relatively large. Make it $70 - $80 to go.

 

[JoseRijo]

<edit> Dammit, Chippy.

 

[courage]

Agreed, punish the Donk. Raise to $65. It looks bluffy.

v

 

[gopherblue]

Fold. You're beaten by a straight. I've played poker. I've seen this hand before. It never ends well for me.

 

[jbutler]

Fold. You're beaten by a straight. I've played poker. I've seen this hand before. It never ends well for me.

Fortunately you're not playing it. Zing!

I've never been one to go against consensus, so I did indeed raise. Not quite as much as Chippy recommended, though.

I raised to $65. SB cold called and BB called very quickly.

Even as loose passive as SB is, I was not expecting a call from him, but here we are.

Onward to the turn:

Turn ($240): (3x6d7d) 9x

SB and BB check to me. My action?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Ok what's up with SB cold calling a three bet oop? I would be concerned about that. Would probably check behind for pot control. also 79 is in bb's range for sure.

 

[jbutler]

Ok what's up with SB cold calling a three bet oop? I would be concerned about that. Would probably check behind for pot control. also 79 is in bb's range for sure.

Remember that SB only has $225ish behind after calling the flop.

 

[Rhodeman77]

I like raising the donk bet $60 more on top. It is smallish bet that feels like it is trying to set the price for his draw going into the turn.

Edit:
Missed that we are in to the turn already.

I think a bet is in order, but I want to bet less than normal, $100 or so, enough that if SB shoves it reopens the betting for you. This puts maximum pressure on BB and will really define his hand if he continues.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I like the preflop raise and the flop raise.

Going into the turn, it's hard to interpret that cold-call by SB. I've seen players do this with bare flush draw and with sets/boats.

In this spot, I'm leaning toward flush draw, only because the board is SO wet, and he checks a fairly innocuous turn (only fills 58), but this is one of those spots where I'm going to be stewing and digging for a read. Either KK is so-so ahead or way behind, and obviously the correct plays for those spots are opposites.

In fact, this turn spot is making me rethink the flop raise. Perhaps the lesser of two evils there was to call, rather than create a pot that's too big to get away from on an extremely threat-heavy board.

 

[bergs]

Fortunately you're not playing it. Zing!

I've never been one to go against consensus, so I did indeed raise. Not quite as much as Chippy recommended, though.

I raised to $65. SB cold called and BB called very quickly.

Even as loose passive as SB is, I was not expecting a call from him, but here we are.

Onward to the turn:

Turn ($240): (3x6d7d) 9x

SB and BB check to me. My action?

I was hoping for a non-diamond turn J or higher. I think you're betting here. Quick calls are usually indicative of a player on a draw, and SB generally isn't going to flat on a wet board like this with a set or two pair (unless they're an idiot in addition to being loose passive). Loose passive just screams station to me.

I'm betting $140 and folding to a raise from BB (it's rare that someone is going to jam to isolate with a draw at these stakes). I'm calling if SB jams and BB folds because he's so short and we're committed. If SB jams and BB calls, you're in a box on the river buddy. I'd feel a lot better if one of your K was Kd.

 

[jbutler]

My thought was that the turn would be a beautiful, beautiful card heads up because it would likely give someone with an OESD a pair and sometimes give someone with top pair an OESD if they have 78x for instance. So in that situation I would definitely be betting larger than normal because people in those spots generally just will not fold.

I was a bit more reticent to just shovel money in against two players at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced that the single hand that turn hits that I don't want to see is 58x. If the flop had been a single bet, I would be 100% positive that SB is capped at one pair, but given the bet and raise, he could prob flat with two pair here. He's still shipping a set with a check raise for sure, but two pair is possible. BB I'm less sure about. He appeared capable of playing a conservative game that would call for a flat on the flop with a big hand just to take one off to see a non-diamond turn.

The upside is that I'm never ever ever getting raised without the nuts here, so I think it frees me up to bet/fold and if I'm called by BB, to check behind on the river.

So with $245 in the pot, I want to bet an amount that will not price BB into an overcall with a huge range. I've definitely used the tactic recommended by @Rhodeman77 in order to be able to 3-bet over a short stack, but I just don't think I'm getting raised nearly often enough by SB to risk letting BB in for only $100 or so.

 

[bergs]

My thought was that the turn would be a beautiful, beautiful card heads up because it would likely give someone with an OESD a pair and sometimes give someone with top pair an OESD if they have 78x for instance. So in that situation I would definitely be betting larger than normal because people in those spots generally just will not fold.

I was a bit more reticent to just shovel money in against two players at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I was convinced that the single hand that turn hits that I don't want to see is 58x. If the flop had been a single bet, I would be 100% positive that SB is capped at one pair, but given the bet and raise, he could prob flat with two pair here. He's still shipping a set with a check raise for sure, but two pair is possible. BB I'm less sure about. He appeared capable of playing a conservative game that would call for a flat on the flop with a big hand just to take one off to see a non-diamond turn.

The upside is that I'm never ever ever getting raised without the nuts here, so I think it frees me up to bet/fold and if I'm called by BB, to check behind on the river.

So with $245 in the pot, I want to bet an amount that will not price BB into an overcall with a huge range. I've definitely used the tactic recommended by @Rhodeman77 in order to be able to 3-bet over a short stack, but I just don't think I'm getting raised nearly often enough by SB to risk letting BB in for only $100 or so.

I was thinking the same thing you were but in rereading it now I realized that I made a bet sizing error and $140 isn't enough. Because I'm fantastically lazy, what are the effective stack sizes going into the turn?

 

[jbutler]

I was thinking the same thing you were but in rereading it now I realized that I made a bet sizing error and $140 isn't enough. Because I'm fantastically lazy, what are the effective stack sizes going into the turn?

SB has about $250. BB covers me, so we are about $370 effective.

 

[bergs]

Ugh. OK. I'm betting $185.

 

[justsomedude]

Man, it just feels like there's two-pair and a flush-draw out there -- but with KK and so many outs on the potential for a paired board, you have to go along. I check back for pot control (as previously stated). Or, as Daniel Negreanu calls it, "play small ball" in this situation.

There's just so much that can beat you... and given that a big bet is not pushing anyone out (based on your description of these players) why put yourself in a possibly worse situation that guarantees three players to the river? Some one could make their flush, and the two-pair out there could pair the board for a full house. Cripes.

I'm already getting heartburn here.

CHECK IT.

And then when a third diamond or paired board hits on the river, you know you're dominated.

 

[Ben]

Depends who the villains have been playing against all night - if it's been "nitty Butler" I'm flatting flop; if it's been "LAGtard Butler" I'm raising.

As played, meh. Spot was sketchy to begin with with 2 opponents including cold-caller and the 9 wasn't great (not horrible, but definitely not good.) I feel like it's around a breakeven spot in which case I'm checking back (reduce variance and all that.) A lot of things could happen on the river...

 

[jbutler]

Depends who the villains have been playing against all night - if it's been "nitty Butler" I'm flatting flop; if it's been "LAGtard Butler" I'm raising.

This is a good point, but I think I had been pretty well in the middle of my playing range for most of the night. Started out playing pretty tight as I tried to figure the new players out, but then started opening it up later on as I figured out who could let go of hands. As I said earlier, they had seen me shove a flush draw (against top set - wheeeee) and brick, but other than that I hadn't shown down any bad hands.

So anyway, I ended up betting $200. SB called more or less instantly and BB tanked for a while, prob 3 full minutes, which is a long time in a $1/3 game, and ended up folding.

River ($640): (3x6d7d) 9x 2o

So probably the best card in the deck for my hand.

SB checks. He has $65 behind. Bet it or check?

 

[thorwilliam]

I think we are ahead almost always. Can't see him slowplaying a big hand with $65 left. It will be hard for him to fold any pair at this point. He probably has a lot of pair plus flush or str draws at the turn.

 

[AlPresidente]

bet

 

[gopherblue]

Take his last $65.








Or so you think until he tables his flopped straight.

Told ya.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Pretty sure he has something like 67 at this point. I mean maybe you can beat a very weirdly played TT, 88, or JJ, but that's about all in my opinion at this point. Check behind, and save yourself $65. That's like 5 trips to Flying Biscuit.

 

[AlPresidente]

68,78,89 and some flush draws with a 3 or a 9 seem plausible to me for a loose, passive fish. I reckon there are more hands we beat that call than hands we lose to.