A customer e-mail prompts a discussion about chip prices (2 Viewers)

[dennis63]

I definitely agree with those who noted above that if you're hosting regular tournaments, you need plenty of chips and can easily see your way to 1,000.

One of my issues has always been that I needed to invite eight or nine people to get five or six to actually show up. But if you invite eight, you need to have enough chips in case they all show up.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Or, as mentioned, if you play multiple stakes. I host games that range from .05/.10 NL/PL to 1/1 NL/PL, and in the future that will probably go up with inflation. Add to that limit games that have ranged from .25/.50 to 3/6, and you really need a lot of chips.

Then there are the big meatups. Fortunately, for the big meatups, when we have 4 tables going, we have some big sets in the neighborhood (berg, guinness) to cover things, but well more than 1000 chips in play on any given day at a meat up.

I'm probably going to be ordering 6000 chips over the next year or 2 to be sure I am covered in the unfortunate chance that CPC goes out of business.

 

[MikeNV79]

Have you ever consider offering the KeyWest chips on a different mold?

 

[BGinGA]

Have you ever consider offering the KeyWest chips on a different mold?

I've asked, and the answer was YES:considered, NO:not-gonna-happen. Otherwise I'd already have a 1000-pc custom-color tournament set on the MD-50 mold.

Offered to pay an artwork fee on top of the chip costs. The J5 inlay design rocks, but there are several stock color combinations I just can't get past. Also much prefer the MD-50 mold to the H-mold....

 

[Mojo1312]

I can see where people might order more chips than they need, but to me there is a difference between having chips that you don't use versus an abundance of chips that are put into use. For example, I can't imagine playing a $1/$2 game with a chipset of 200 x $1, 200 x $5, and 100 x $25, even though the aforementioned breakdown covers the $1/$2 game that I play in now. For me, having only 200 redbirds at a full ring $1/$2 game is less than ideal.

And there are other variables to consider, such as the player base you are catering to and your willingness to grow your game and to mix things up. I started playing hold-em 7 years ago. The blinds were .25/.50 with a fixed $20 buy-in. I began hosting a weekly .25/.50 cash game in May of 2013 that evolved to a .50/.50 cash game. The buy-in was $40 to $60. $100 re-buys into the game were not unusual, which explains why we often had $1100 to $1,500 on the table. A cash set of 100 x .50, 150 x $1, 200 redbirds and 50- $25 chips would easily cover our cash game. I also hosted 12 to 15 player bi-monthly tournaments for three winters, which could be covered by a 500 piece chip set.

I moved earlier this year, and I am now playing in an 18 to 21 player tournament that is followed by a NL Omaha-hi $1/$2 cash game. The amount of money in the Omaha game varies wildly, and is dependent upon which players among our group decide to play. There are a few who will cash out and go home after the tournament if they finish in the money, and there are others who will sit down at the Omaha table and donk off their winnings. We also have a couple of fisherman who don't mind losing several hundred dollars when they have money to burn. There have been evenings where we have only had a $1,000 on the table, and others where we have had $3,500.

I am itching to host again. I know that I am going to have to offer a mix of games if I am to please the crowd of players in my area, and the blinds will have to be $1/$2. I also would like to run a league again, similar to he one I ran last year. (T18750 with blinds starting at 50/100) I expect that I could easily get 20 players since I live in a central location that doesn't require people to drive 20 to 25 minutes outside of town. A 500 piece cash set and a 500 piece tourney set isn't going to work.

 

[pltrgyst]

....Offered to pay an artwork fee on top of the chip costs. The J5 inlay design rocks, but there are several stock color combinations I just can't get past. Also much prefer the MD-50 mold to the H-mold....

Exactly my situation. I'd love a big set of Key Wests, but the colors of the $1 and $1000 make me gag. ;(

I have a small set of 25/100/500s -- wonderful color combos all, IMO -- and some 5,000s, also beauties, but only a small single-table tourney's worth because of those color limitations, as well as the mold. Can't figure out the "H", unless it's a tribute to Key West's large gay population.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Exactly my situation. I'd love a big set of Key Wests, but the colors of the $1 and $1000 make me gag. ;(

Obvious answer is obvious: Key West live 1's and double up on the 500s.

 

[dennis63]

Have you ever consider offering the KeyWest chips on a different mold?

Yes, I've been asked about this in the past and decided against it. (BG is paraphrasing my reply. I think I sent him all the reasons I couldn't see doing it. Here they are:

1. The mold, colors and inlay are all standard. If you change the mold, or the color, or some part of the inlay, or the edge spots, what you are really doing is making a custom chip that also says Key West on it.

2. It takes away from the value of Key West chips already out there, because they'll be harder to sell if a number of people have the Key West inlay on a bunch of different molds. That's the exact opposite of what I'm trying very hard to do with this line of casino chips -- add value to the existing chips, because they're not cheap.

3. It opens a can of worms. If one person gets to change the mold, them somebody else will want to change the edge spots to whatever pattern just became available last month. Another will want to change the base color of the $5 chip. Eventually, it turns into "do whatever you want with the Key West inlay," and somebody will be sticking Key West labels on those ugly gray China clay plastic chips with painted black edge spots. No doubt someone on chiptalk would make a post calling it "the ugliest chip ever made." The existing Key West chips would be worthless, including my own set.

4. Because the Key West inlay would be on any chip, I would need to be involved in the process of creating the various different versions people would invent. That's time consuming and opens up another can of worms when things don't turn out exactly as the customer wanted.

5. Buying the Key West line was an investment, and not a small one. Creating the company to sell the chips was an investment that cost even more, and has also involved thousands of hours of my time. Marketing the chips has involved trips to Las Vegas, Key West, and many other places. (Time and cost.) I simply think that in exchange for all of that, I should get to decide what the chip looks like.

6. Too many people who ordered Key Wests in Chiptalk group buys wanted big sets of chips, but when it came time to pay for the chips, they disappeared, leaving me on the hook to pay for their chips with JimB or Michael. Other people had legitimate reasons they couldn't pay for their order, and I understand that. After a few CT group buys, I was holding a couple of thousand Key West chips for people, not knowing if they would ever show up again. (They didn't.) This is how my business got started, because I was left with so many chips from people who got into five group buys at one time, and went broke buying chips. I don't want to be "holding" someone's altered design of the Key West chip.

7. It doesn't go with the long-term plan for my business. What if, one day, I decided to offer face value for all Key West chips under $5? Or even for the $5s, too? (It would be pretty easy to do, actually, and wouldn't cost that much, and yes, I am thinking of actually doing it.) We could create a market where all those chips would be selling or trading at face value. That doesn't work if you have a bunch of different designs.

In the end, the answer is simple: If you want a custom chip, pay J5 and Classic Poker Chips to do the inlay and make the chips. And don't forget to post pictures!

 

[dennis63]

Exactly my situation. I'd love a big set of Key Wests, but the colors of the $1 and $1000 make me gag. ;(

I have a small set of 25/100/500s -- wonderful color combos all, IMO -- and some 5,000s, also beauties, but only a small single-table tourney's worth because of those color limitations, as well as the mold. Can't figure out the "H", unless it's a tribute to Key West's large gay population.

The "H" mold was created by an early version of ASM / CPC called the Burt Company for a New York City distributor of poker chips called The H.C. Edwards Company. The "H" is from the owner's first name (or one of his children), and even the venerable chip historian Robert Eisenstadt, when I contacted him, had no idea what Mr. Edwards's real first name actually was.

Given that it was the 1920s, I'm thinking "Horatio."

 

[RussB42]

I have about 650 chips in my set that I have had for several years, and except for shuffling a few, I have them in a Nice 750pc Chip Case. The set is 25c thru $100.

By the way, I like the Colors on the 1st $1 chip that was made. It really stands out with the rest on the Set.

Thanks for this posting.....

 

[Mental Nomad]

The "H" mold was created by an early version of ASM / CPC called the Burt Company for a New York City distributor of poker chips called The H.C. Edwards Company. The "H" is from the owner's first name (or one of his children), and even the venerable chip historian Robert Eisenstadt, when I contacted him, had no idea what Mr. Edwards's real first name actually was.

Given that it was the 1920s, I'm thinking "Horatio."

Howard was also popular. How badly do we want to know? A records search might turn up signatures... they were located right near my old apartment:

 

[Shaggy]

My money is on Harold. My grandfather's name was Harold.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Exactly my situation. I'd love a big set of Key Wests, but the colors of the $1 and $1000 make me gag. ;(

That's another thing I love about what he's done with Key West... I have an unexplainably powerful and deep-seated hate of blue $1 chips. But they give us two options for the $1 chips. Brilliant.

 

[BGinGA]

Herbert also a strong contender.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I like Howard the most, but someone beat me to it. So I'll add Homer to the dead guy's name pool.

 

[Ben]

I like Howard the most, but someone beat me to it. So I'll add Homer to the dead guy's name pool.

I'll go with the unconventional choice - given the time period and the fact that the gentleman in question was the owner of a significant company, we can approximate the year of his birth. I surmise that he may have been named after a U.S. president in or around that time - Hiram.

 

[Mr Tree]

Hieronymus

 

[dennis63]

Now we'll really have to find out what the "H" stands means.

 

[pltrgyst]

Hieronymus

Reading too much Michael Connelly?

(I know: there *ain't* too much Michael Connelly.)

 

[tommythecat]

A little more history on the H mold...

http://www.preservinggaminghistory.com/hce/hce.htm

 

[Poker Zombie]

I'll go with the unconventional choice - given the time period and the fact that the gentleman in question was the owner of a significant company, we can approximate the year of his birth. I surmise that he may have been named after a U.S. president in or around that time - Hiram.

I will be moving you to the top of my speed dial if I ever need to "phone a friend".

 

[Mango]

Henry Charles just as a guess

 

[monkeydog]

There's an old saying that we use at work frequently...

[h=1]“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a
lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will
have enough to pay for something better.”[/h]We are in the building supply business and sell a premium product with premium service at a premium price...often against competitors selling an inferior product for less money that the customer try's to make us compete with...some customers we lose but many become multigenerational, long time customers who realize that the price is irrelevant in comparison to getting what they want from people who care.

 

[toad94]

I'm aiming for 20,000 gallon swimming pool

Yes, that or a Scrooge McDuck style vault...

 

[courage]

Hiram. Hey, anything's possible.

 

[dennis63]

The effect of "live" $1 chips:

Last year, the Key West issued blue $1 chips for $1 -- face value -- and guaranteed to cash the chips for face value at any time in the future. (We still have some left.) The imperial blue color was selected to go well with the gray 25-cent chip and the red and blue $5 chip, for cash games.

So if you got a 300-chip set and included 100 x $1 blue chips, you paid $378 for 300 chips, or $1.26 each. (And you can always consider those blue chips like cash.)

This is just another way we're trying to get the per-chip price down and make the set useful and interesting.

And I'm always looking for new, innovative things to do to improve the value of Key West chips and keep the price reasonable. If anyone has any practical suggestions, please PM me here or sent an e-mail to dennis@keywestresortcasino.com.

 

[dennis63]

I posted on The Chipboard to see if anyone there may know the first name of H.C. Edwards, or what, exactly, the "H" stands for on the chips.

It is possible that it was simply a letter chip, like the "A" and the "B" molds.

 

[dennis63]

I've been searching the Internet for any business records of the H.C. Edwards Co., to see if we can come up with exactly what -- if anything -- the H meant.

Clay chips for 7 1/2 cents each
According to an article by Howard W. Herz published in 2007 in the Casino Chip & Gaming Token Collectors Club (CCGTCC) magazine, in the early 20th Century, there were over 100 known chip mold designs. Images from the boxes or advertisements -- several dated 1929 -- indicate that they sold at that time for $8 per 100 chips and $75 for 1,000 chips.

Adjusted for inflation, that's $1.10 per chip in racks, and $1.04 in quantity. Changes in the CPI and higher inflation rates since the 1990s surely account for the difference between today's prices and the "inflation adjusted" numbers.

I recall a conversation with Michael at ASM a few years ago. We talked about how one of the ingredients in the chips saw its price double in 12 months. (I don't remember what it was called, but it's the chalky "chip dust" we see on the chips when they arrive.)

 

[David Spragg]

I've been searching the Internet for any business records of the H.C. Edwards Co., to see if we can come up with exactly what -- if anything -- the H meant.

Clay chips for 7 1/2 cents each
According to an article by Howard W. Herz published in 2007 in the Casino Chip & Gaming Token Collectors Club (CCGTCC) magazine, in the early 20th Century, there were over 100 known chip mold designs. Images from the boxes or advertisements -- several dated 1929 -- indicate that they sold at that time for $8 per 100 chips and $75 for 1,000 chips.

Adjusted for inflation, that's $1.10 per chip in racks, and $1.04 in quantity. Changes in the CPI and higher inflation rates since the 1990s surely account for the difference between today's prices and the "inflation adjusted" numbers.

I recall a conversation with Michael at ASM a few years ago. We talked about how one of the ingredients in the chips saw its price double in 12 months. (I don't remember what it was called, but it's the chalky "chip dust" we see on the chips when they arrive.)

The chalky chip dust is residue from the grinding wheel. It is not an ingredient, just the finest particles of chips themselves.

Inlaid chips as we know them were only invented around the 1940's. Those historic prices are almost certainly for hot-stamps or even blanks. Burt Co. did not sell hot-stamped chips, they only ever supplied blanks for distributors to stamp themselves.

Some 'naturally occurring' ingredients are no doubt scarcer now than they were back then. Another factor is that until 20 years ago, all pigment (which pound for pound is by far the most expensive ingredient) contained lead. I suggest that the R&D to find substitute pigment ingredients over the last 20 years ago is reflected in the current prices.
Ingredient prices alone make little difference to the final cost though, labor and utilities comprise 80%+ of the cost of a finished chip (unless an awful lot of material is lost to wastage in the early stages of production).

I always assumed the H & C in H C Edwards were Mr Edwards initials but I've yet to find anything to indicate that or otherwise.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I recall a conversation with Michael at ASM a few years ago. We talked about how one of the ingredients in the chips saw its price double in 12 months. (I don't remember what it was called, but it's the chalky "chip dust" we see on the chips when they arrive.)

The chalky chip dust is residue from the grinding wheel. It is not an ingredient, just the finest particles of chips themselves.

I was going to tell David to keep the dust, and just pass the savings back to me.