An era is really over (10 Viewers)

[Fishman]

I’m still new to this however, I have done plenty of research thus far and the flipping thing is quite obvious to me, two months into the chip journey. Yes, I noticed almost immediately.
I’ve noticed more than a few TCR deep sale sets end up on the classifieds for a premium.

It’s disheartening for me as a newbie to see this flipping happen on the secondary (or is it tertiary?) market after initial sales. Primarily, because it undercuts the initial business effort. We want businesses to succeed.

Yes, the market sets market prices, and it’s all fair game based on any agreement. The auctions are a method of gauging the market. Primary sellers should obviously yield profit, that’s their business. Who even knows if the auction prices were profitable. They clearly hit a ceiling. About $5/chip iirc.

Secondary sellers, generally as a rule, should not see that profit if any at all - especially less than 1-5 years after initial purchase. Long term investments and improvements are different.

That’s the way I see it.

 

[allforcharity]

I don't know Jim, and really it doesn't matter who it is, the argument, can't hold much water.

Didn't even realize there was an argument. Tournament chips used for cash is no stranger than cash chips used for tournament. If it truly works for what you need it for, then more power to you.

I believe historically, when it was mentioned by someone, that the earliest WSOP tournaments used structures where the denominations matched 1:1 for the buy-in value, so you knew how much real money a stack was potentially worth as players advanced and consolidated. It would be easy to replicate, but most people wouldn't be familiar (or comfortable?) with it.

 

[monkeydog]

I don't know Jim, and really it doesn't matter who it is, the argument, can't hold much water.

if I was on ceramics or dice chips and looking for clay / upgrades, for the value buyer / avg guy looking for an upgrade these have a ton of value, how many chippers want a T1 tournament set? 0

Everyone that would have these chips would use them for a cash set over a tournament set. Even if you want to use them as a tourney set, the players would bitch and moan, they too want sexy high value denoms on the set. I'm at poker game and these are the chips they sell me for the game NCV or w/e, they are going to cash them out.

I'm all for being a prescriptivist, but reality comes first. There is no value in these chips sold or said to be tournament chips. A rose by any other name ... You want to devalue these by calling them tourney chips, cool, buy them, call them tournament chips and resell them for a lower price, otherwise I thank you to stay in your lane.

I could give these chips to any host in the mid west and 99.999999999999999999% of them would use them for cash games, the one odd ball out of 10000 would try to find a way to use the 25s and up for a tournament.

Not sure where you got the idea that I want to devalue the chips.

Realty is they are tournament chips. Just because there is a perception of lower value due to being a T1 doesn’t change the fact that it’s a T1.

It’s the same as putting a sticker on a chip and pretending that it completes a “real” set.

That’s one of the major issues with the “community” now. People give up on the challenge of chasing the perfect set for years, and just put some stickers on chips and call it a day.

And don’t bother with the BS of “it makes it a playable set”. The desirability lies in the fact that there aren’t an unlimited amount of readily available, highly desirable, playable sets.

If it’s just playability you want, print your shitty themes on shitty ceramic chips and move on.

 

[upNdown]

Says the above avg chipper

Let me see your T1 sets

Here, I’ll share a picture of all my tournament chips:






Hosting tournaments is too much work, so I’ve given up on it. But fwiw, I’ve hosted T100, T25, T5 and T.25. It’s not all exactly the same, but it’s close enough.

 

[upNdown]

Not sure where you got the idea that I want to devalue the chips.

Realty is they are tournament chips. Just because there is a perception of lower value due to being a T1 doesn’t change the fact that it’s a T1.

It’s the same as putting a sticker on a chip and pretending that it completes a “real” set.

That’s one of the major issues with the “community” now. People give up on the challenge of chasing the perfect set for years, and just put some stickers on chips and call it a day.

And don’t bother with the BS of “it makes it a playable set”. The desirability lies in the fact that there aren’t an unlimited amount of readily available, highly desirable, playable sets.

If it’s just playability you want, print your shitty themes on shitty ceramic chips and move on.

EVERY SINGLE WORD!!!

 

[Huskerchipper]

Your point is fair, but you’re definitely exaggerating with the 0 and the 99.9999% stuff.

I give zero effs about the denominations on my tournament chips. I think “sexy high denoms” just for the sake of pretending we’re high rollers is stuff for kids. And I can’t be alone in those opinions.

Play it how you want, but to me the only difference between a T1 tournament and a T1,000 tournament is the amount of syllables I have to say when announcing my bets.

Same

 

[Machine]

Not sure where you got the idea that I want to devalue the chips.

Realty is they are tournament chips. Just because there is a perception of lower value due to being a T1 doesn’t change the fact that it’s a T1.

It’s the same as putting a sticker on a chip and pretending that it completes a “real” set.

That’s one of the major issues with the “community” now. People give up on the challenge of chasing the perfect set for years, and just put some stickers on chips and call it a day.

And don’t bother with the BS of “it makes it a playable set”. The desirability lies in the fact that there aren’t an unlimited amount of readily available, highly desirable, playable sets.

If it’s just playability you want, print your shitty themes on shitty ceramic chips and move on.

I got the idea because you gave it to me in your earlier post

Not to mention the mislabeling of a low denomination tournament set being called a cash set even though it literally says No Cash Value.

I would argue using ICM they do have a cash value and we can calculate it, so NCV is a bait and switch!

I would also argue that its not the same as putting a sticker on a chip and pretending its a real set. I would further venture that the hot stamp won't rub or peal off either!

Not to mention the mislabeling of a low denomination tournament set being called a cash set even though it literally says No Cash Value. No one calls it out or questions it though - you don’t want to end up blacklisted.

I think it's not call out not because of being blacklisted, but because it's not a big deal, cash set are more in demand, it plays very well as a cash set and if you don't like that it says NCV then this isn't the set for you. I doubt if the vendor told everyone that bought them prior to buying the 'technically this is a tournament set' most would 'I know' and / or 'I don't care'.

That’s one of the major issues with the “community” now. People give up on the challenge of chasing the perfect set for years, and just put some stickers on chips and call it a day.

I think it is an issue with the hobby not the community. I don't think its a challenge but more of an impossibility at times. Recently my GOAT set when up for sale, and rather than literally borrowing against my home equity I chose to not purchase it. I also chose to not change my profession to something more lucrative so I could afford it. I started down a different path before Fakeshores were an option, and in the end I didn't want to change up.

I've had chips that I didn't want to sell, but another member sought me out and wanted them, I helped him out, because I believe in the community, he was doing what you say is perceived as an issue. I think people still try maybe you just don't see it as much.

The desirability lies in the fact that there aren’t an unlimited amount of readily available,

I don't think that is the only desirability, I loath other games around here because 1) they all take a rake 2) play on dice chips 3) offer shit food
If one of them would use decent chips I would support them as often as I could. My desire is not shit chips, I just want a host to give a shit enough to buy the least expensive tournament set that looks feels and has denom on them, anything but dice chips!

Don't take me wrong, its not me vs you, I'm offering a different point of view

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

After watching the TCR auctions, and then seeing the ridiculous prices it has resulted in has left me nostalgic for the old days, and with a realization that an era has really, truly passed.

TCR is free to charge whatever they want, but this really truly felt like an experiment to see the maximum that the masses would be willing to pay.

Jim was never the saint that some like to think of him as, but he was a very honest, stand up businessman, that found a niche market and a way to sell to it. Everyone was treated the same, and everyone had the same chance at the chips.

Hearing whispers and rumours of side deals and special access for select members over the last however number of years made me start to wonder, but now it’s pretty evident. Ever wonder how people who didn’t have a “golden ticket” were able to post pics of their sets within hours of the “golden ticket” holders receiving their chips? Makes you wonder…

It doesn’t feel at all as above board as it used to be, and there is an underlying smell of dishonesty about it.

Not to mention the mislabeling of a low denomination tournament set being called a cash set even though it literally says No Cash Value. No one calls it out or questions it though - you don’t want to end up blacklisted.

There’s no way it will ever go back to the way it was. There’s just too much money, and too many people for it now.

Not that necessarily want it to back, just that I miss it.

I sure wish I knew I was in the good old days when they were happening…


Disclaimer:

• Both my kids have graduated and I’m deep in my feelings
• No offence intended to anyone
• I strongly believe that people can sell their chips for whatever they want
• I’m old and have been around for too long
• These are just my thoughts/opinions, feel free to disregard

Please do not take this as disagreeing or agruing because I think prices have been insane!!

Honestly, I have wondered for YEARS why TCR has not benefitted from the insane price increases that the rest of us have benifitted from!! I have always been a fan of auctions as a way to set market prices, and was very happy to see that TCR was doing auctions for these AWESOME chips!! While I was hoping to get me some of these, I quickly realized that this hobby has passed me be. So be it!!

I feel you my friend...shit's expensive and we're getting old.

CHEERS to the AMAZING life we have lived!!

 

[BGinGA]

There are plenty of white (T)1 casino chips from Vegas and elsewhere out there, just check the Chipguide. Even pink 2.50 denoms exist. All are formally considered as "no value chips" by the casinos and gaming authorities (vs "cash value checks", used for casino currency). They can be and are used for multiple purposes (not just poker tournaments). I had a large set of Grand Casino Biloxi no-value chips with T1 denoms; there are also Grand Casino Gulfport sets in existence (both THC hot-stamped solids). @upNdown listed a few others.

Categorizing no-value chips in general as only 'tournament chips' is almost as inaccurate as calling them 'cash chips', and really no different than incorrectly referring to any denominations of casino currency as tournament chips. Many chips may be used post-casino in ways other than their intended design and purpose, but selectively getting all worked up about what labels are used to describe them is pointless.

If you're using ex-casino cash value checks in your local tournaments, then it's a tournament set. And if you're using ex-casino no-value chips in your local cash games, then it's a cash set. Pretty simple.

 

[BGinGA]

Regarding the rest of the stuff in this thread, well, I really no longer care. I've found other first-world problems to keep me occupied.

 

[ovo]

I was using cash sets for tourney and tourney sets for cash , from the beginning, over 18 years ago. It's smart, it's easy, don't know why anyone would make a big deal about it.

 

[upNdown]

I was using cash sets for tourney and tourney sets for cash , from the beginning, over 18 years ago. It's smart, it's easy, don't know why anyone would make a big deal about it.

I can only speak for myself, not for the crowd.
To me, it’s a big deal. But I realize it’s a silly imaginary line that I choose to live by. If I were playing at your house, I’m not going to flip the table if I hand you cash and you hand me no cash value chips. I’m going to play poker and have fun and be glad to be there and not give it a second thought.
But when it comes to a game I’m running, yeah it’s a big deal to me.

 

[springbox]

The prices are definitely a bummer but I think it's totally unsurprising. Heavy spotted THC chips from a big name casino in very good condition are going to command a premium, and higher end chip prices have been up. Compare to the Tachi palace chips which were RHC from a fairly no name casino and heavily used, it's no wonder there's a discrepancy.

As for NCV chips, I think it's whatever. The chips are not redeemable at any casino, they're worth whatever the game's host says they're worth. I've never seen anyone complain when "cash" chips are played for tournament purposes because, again, they're not active casino chips so the only person who's going to pay you for them is whoever is hosting the game. Now if it's your personal preference not to use chips marked NCV for cash games that's totally fair, I would prefer not to as well, but there's really nothing misleading about selling them in a breakdown that's conducive for cash games.

 

[Lil Tuna]

The desirability lies in the fact that there aren’t an unlimited amount of readily available, highly desirable, playable sets.

Nailed it @monkeydog! It’s a concept that many of the newer members to the hobby don’t understand and the folks within the hobby that see it as $$$ first, chipping second, they don’t want the new members to get it.

Very recently, a very well known and respected member of this community mentioned to me that some folks just don’t adapt well to change. It really got me thinking that this “change” being referred to is exactly what you are speaking of.

Sure seems like it to me. Good thing is, you’ve probably got some sets that very few could only dream of having and they literally go up in value with every new believer in this “change” that finds their way into this hobby.

Have been feeling for a long time what your feeling @monkeydog and I miss the old days as well.

ANYMORE!

Sure hope Barrie sees this also @chippitydoodah. Trust me, he will.

 

[Taghkanic]

FWIW, for roughly my first decade of playing poker, I played only live tournaments. No cash, no online. For a time, this was as many as 2-3 live tourneys a week.

Never found a single tourney whose lowest denom was T1. Not ever.

Also never found a single tourney whose lowest denom was T5. Not ever.

I know these sets exist, but just have never seen one in play. I think there are some reasons for that but won’t get into it.

Blinds started at either 25/50, 100/100 or 100/200 across tons of different venues. This included tourneys at casinos, in social halls, big charity tourneys, and also private MTTs.

If someone had used T1s in these events, the confusion and grumbling would have been palpable.

(Note: The big blind ante started gaining widespread traction around here in maybe 2018 or 2019. Some people hated it at first but it is now virtually universal. If someone doesn’t use them, it’s usually a firehouse game where the average age is about 65… Anyway the BBA shift did not cause anyone I know to move off T25s or T100s as their lowest denom.)

Nowadays I play mainly cash, plus occasional casino/WSOP events and one private MTT—which still starts at 100/100 with a 1, and whose largest denom is 25K, and has been that way for nearly 20 years across four venues.

Still none of them use T1s.

This doesn’t mean no one ever did, or that you can’t do it now. If you want to host a tourney that starts at 1/1 with a 1, knock yourself out.

I don’t care for the idea as I like the cash vs tourney line of demarcation… especially if you host cash after your home tourney.

In fact if I were making the rules tourneys might have to start at T500 or T1K to really separate them from all but nosebleed cash. But to each his own.

I just don’t think many if any of TCR buyers are ever using the set including T1s and T5s for a tourney, making Jim’s marketing entirely sensible.

 

[Antrooper]

Well I'm just pissed someone upped me $10 in last minute in the auction. Dang that feels bad. But I guess rules are rules

 

[BNads86]

Well I'm just pissed someone upped me $10 in last minute in the auction. Dang that feels bad. But I guess rules are rules

Auctions extend 5 minutes after every bid, so as long you put in a bid within 5 minutes of the previous bid, it keeps going even past the deadline

 

[Antrooper]

Auctions extend 5 minutes after every bid, so as long you put in a bid within 5 minutes of the previous bid, it keeps going even past the deadline

Oh! I don't know that! I thought it will be over when time ends. Well, lesson learned.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Oh! I don't know that! I thought it will be over when time ends. Well, lesson learned.

Its alright, they probably bid before the last 5 minutes so it ended on time. Strategize!

 

[Saditsfact]

Just don’t buy ‘em. There were racks of leaded, real cash, hot stamped THC’s for sale for around the same price per rack just yesterday in the classifieds (granted they were solids).

The Harrah’s sets are like $250/rack for spotted, hot stamped THC’s. Seems standard, everything is more expensive than it was pre-Covid.

Don’t remind me of the set I missed out on…

 

[Josh Kifer]

EVERY SINGLE WORD!!!

View attachment 1351335

 

[LeLe]

 

[Josh Kifer]

View attachment 1351519

I mean, out of all of them today, this is the tamest....

 

[BEANO52]

"Cash set"

• THC
• hot stamp
• spotted
• NM to VG
• from actual casino
• 1 to 500
• Pretty decently allocated spread for a cash game (naturally, could always use more $5s)

average $2.50 a chip . . .

This is NOT unfairly priced.

 

[suchj0sh]

Don’t remind me of the set I missed out on…

Those and the TCR sets are out of my budget realistically, but that’s ok. There will always be chips moving, and when I’m ready, there will be something there for me too.

 

[Tonysquander]

"Cash set"

• THC
• hot stamp
• spotted
• NM to VG
• from actual casino
• 1 to 500
• Pretty decently allocated spread for a cash game (naturally, could always use more $5s)

average $2.50 a chip . . .

This is NOT unfairly priced.

There were more than enough $5s in the cash set . #freethe$25

 

[upNdown]

There were more than enough $5s in the cash set . #freethe$25

How could that be possible?

 

[Tonysquander]

How could that be possible?

Easily doable with higher denoms.

 

[Johnblue]

After watching the TCR auctions, and then seeing the ridiculous prices it has resulted in has left me nostalgic for the old days, and with a realization that an era has really, truly passed.

TCR is free to charge whatever they want, but this really truly felt like an experiment to see the maximum that the masses would be willing to pay.

Jim was never the saint that some like to think of him as, but he was a very honest, stand up businessman, that found a niche market and a way to sell to it. Everyone was treated the same, and everyone had the same chance at the chips.

Hearing whispers and rumours of side deals and special access for select members over the last however number of years made me start to wonder, but now it’s pretty evident. Ever wonder how people who didn’t have a “golden ticket” were able to post pics of their sets within hours of the “golden ticket” holders receiving their chips? Makes you wonder…

It doesn’t feel at all as above board as it used to be, and there is an underlying smell of dishonesty about it.

Not to mention the mislabeling of a low denomination tournament set being called a cash set even though it literally says No Cash Value. No one calls it out or questions it though - you don’t want to end up blacklisted.

There’s no way it will ever go back to the way it was. There’s just too much money, and too many people for it now.

Not that necessarily want it to back, just that I miss it.

I sure wish I knew I was in the good old days when they were happening…


Disclaimer:

• Both my kids have graduated and I’m deep in my feelings
• No offence intended to anyone
• I strongly believe that people can sell their chips for whatever they want
• I’m old and have been around for too long
• These are just my thoughts/opinions, feel free to disregard

That’s not how I see it, Jim has always been fair, there’s been a sprinkling of times when he has auctioned off stuff like this recent tourney sets, where there’s literally only 1-2 sets… what else is there to do with a lot like that? Makes zero cents to discount them and have a chip room sale where it’s just luck of the click to one or two random guys?

Totally depends on the haul he gets… I’ve been around a long time, and all of the classic chiproom sales were from LARGE Hauls of chips, where there is enough to actually do a “classic chiproom sale” I started with Grand Vic’s, I bought HSI… and I bought Sahara dunes, all classic chiproom sales.

I don’t even get where you are coming from, I can just look back at the last couple years, there’s been plenty of big casino hauls… plenty of regular TCR sales… there needs to be volume for a TCR type sale though…

Realistically, there’s been probably 1-3 big sales a year on average, some years there’s slim Pickens.

Anyways bro, I guess you really liked those hotstamped chips and are mad @Gorbash bids everything so high. You are lucky @Windwalker is gone. Between those two and @doublebooyah85 … the ultra rare stuff is just out of reach for some people…

I bet you if you would just tell Jim what type of stuff you are looking for he would probably give you a call if he comes across them… haha… probably not any more…

Bro, you gotta have patience… I bought killler HSI secondary tournament set for a SONG from Jim a few years ago… but nobody is really going to drool for another decade… just like nobody really drooled about PCAs for a good decade..

Sorry about the empty nest… chipping has changed, a bit… but basically it’s still the same.

 

[Johnblue]

I think the obvious driver here is the oddity of Harrah’s having commissioned 1s for a tournament set.

I’m not an oldschool chipper, but I’ve had a lot of tournament sets. And I just don’t recall ever seeing T1s before.

I also can’t say that I’ve seen T1 breakdowns discussed (but I’m sure someone will find a link to one). Probably someone out there has even used a 1/2 cash set as a basis for a tourney set, treating the 1s like 100s… But this isn’t common at all in my

Long story short: Given that virtually no one runs tourneys with 1s as the smallest denom here, I totally agree with Jim’s decision to adapt those as part of a “cash” set.

If I buy a set, that’s how I’d use them anyway. No matter what the fine hotstamped print on the chip says.

The chips were originally made for black Jack tournaments. hence the 1s and the 2.50s