Tourney Balancing tables (1 Viewer)

[Poker Zombie]

I don't know why, but I'm a bit stuck on a rules question that I should know the answer to. I know what I'm inclined to say, but since this is for an article I'm writing, I really, really want to get it right.

According to TDA rules (important part highlighted by me)...

To balance tables in flop and mixed games, the player who will be big blind next is moved to the worst position, including taking a single big blind when available, even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice. Worst position is never the small blind.

Question:
When a seat gets the BB twice, does the seat to the right pay the SB twice, or is there a Dead Small?

Spoiler: My thoughts but please respond as you see fit

I'm inclined to hit the player with the SB twice. I think this can happen when reducing from 3 to 2 players, but adding a player may be different.

 

[detroitdad]

I never make someone pay the BB twice in a row. We always move the BB as we normally would and play with a dead small.

 

[Ben]

I think the wording "taking a single big blind when available" implies that there would be a dead small in that instance.

That's insane though. My official position is that the TDA can suck it, and I and everyone else in the world can continue to move the player from like position to the vacated seat, as God intended.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I never make someone pay the BB twice in a row. We always move the BB as we normally would and play with a dead small.

Nobody would ever pay the BB twice in a row (well, reseating at the final table may cause that). The player that is about to pay the BB moves into the seat that is about to be the BB (if the BB seat is already taken, move left until there is an empty chair). The question is the duty of the SB, and does someone pay it again if the open seat is the BB.

Example:
Hand 297: Player A is the SB, Player B is the BB and short stacked, Player C is irrelevant, Player D is dealing. At the end of 297, B is out. and a New player B2 sits down.
Which is correct?

1. B2 Pays the BB, and A pays the Small again
2. B2 Pays the BB, Dead Small, and A deals (Which after Ben's comment and doing some examples at home is my inclination)
3. C gets the BB, B2 is SB, and Dealer is A

 

[slisk250]

3?

 

[Ronoh]

Or 4. B2 is an observer for hand 298 and comes in on player As deal on hand 299

 

[Ronoh]

Unless it's a four handed tournament B2 would move to Player As left or the first open seat after him

 

[Poker Zombie]

I left it at 4 because I didn't want to complicate it with the possibility of multiple simultaneous KOs that could still create this same situation. Whatever the correct answer, it shouldn't need exceptions.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Under these rules, I don't see why any player would pay the big blind twice, or the small blind twice. The dealer button will always move, so nobody gets the button twice. Therefore, the small blind also moves. Nobody gets seated between the big and the button, so nobody gets a doubled small, either.

Perhaps they're not talking about the player having a big blind twice, but about a particular seat having the big blind twice?

"even if that means the seat will have the big blind twice"

You can potentially sub in multiple new players, including a big blind, small blind, and dealer... and the new player in the big blind seat has the big blind. As far as the rest of the table is concerned, that seat has a repeat blind - UTG is UTG again - but no individual has paid a blind twice.

 

[Ronoh]

Was in my truck on my phone waiting for someone when I read the thread initially and DDs response of the possible same guy in the BB twice threw me, until now I had no idea what you were asking (though I thought I did lol).

2 is correct, B2 is the big with the button on his immediate right and B2 will be the button next hand without ever being the SB

 

[Ronoh]

Wait that's wrong too. I've completely confused myself.

 

[Ronoh]

Okay, laid it out to see wtf was going on. Regardless of the quoted rule I believe the correct play is what I initially said, B2 is an observer for one hand and comes in when the button passes him.

By the rule as posted the only thing that makes sense would be Players C and B2 each post a big blind followed by C's SB and B2's button but I've never heard of two forced BBs in tournament poker. Otherwise either someone gets out of a blind the following hand or someone holds the button on consecutive hands.

I've seen it done my way plenty of times... can't ever remember seeing it done by the rule in the OP.

 

[Mental Nomad]

Example:
Hand 297: Player A is the SB, Player B is the BB and short stacked, Player C is irrelevant, Player D is dealing. At the end of 297, B is out. and a New player B2 sits down.
Which is correct?

1. B2 Pays the BB, and A pays the Small again
2. B2 Pays the BB, Dead Small, and A deals (Which after Ben's comment and doing some examples at home is my inclination)
3. C gets the BB, B2 is SB, and Dealer is A

I think the error here may be in assuming that B2 will take B's seat. I think the right order to handle the situation is:

1. Hand 297 Ends. The button moves. A will be the new dealer. C is the small, D is the big.
2. The incoming players gets seated at the table; since incoming player was due to pay a big blind, he'll be seated between C and D and will take a big blind.

Done. With four players at the table, there are lots of seats open.

In the even that it's a full 10-player table, the Big Blind is knocked out of B, and the ONLY open seat is between A and C, then:
1. Hand 297 end. Button moves. A is the dealer, C is the small, but the open seat is to C's right.
- if rules allow shifting players, shift C one seat to the right, incoming player sits on their left and takes the big
- if the rules down't allow shifting players,incoming player sits in the seat and observes one hand; his first hand will be 1OTB, because the button will pass him.

I really think this rule pertains to the situation where multiple people are being re-seated; you try to respect their positions. This can mean that people coming ing cause the same SEAT to hold the big blind, but that should not have any effect on the players.

But I could be reading this wrong. (Not really a tournament rules guy.)

 

[Poker Zombie]

For those not in the know, I run 3 tables, a 10, 8, and 8 seater. While this situation has never popped up, it is a possibility with a sold out crowd (very possible as we have a metric crap ton of new fish... er... players coming in the next game). So the possibility of tables 2 or 3 KOing someone would require a move from the main table, with only 1 empty seat to put them into. Since the fish new players are all excited about the ability to rebuy, the blinds will be (likely) pretty high when the move occurs, so the question of paying a blind twice is pretty important.

1. Hand 297 Ends. The button moves. A will be the new dealer. C is the small, D is the big.

This suggests the button moves before the new player sits, but as soon as a table is short, play is stopped. The button does not move until that is remedied.

Added note in case it was not picked up in the title or other bits, this is Tournament rules. In a cash game, I would point at the rafters, say "Look, a flock of turtles" and distract the new player until the button had passed.

 

[BGinGA]

I agree with Nomad and Ronoh.....

Here's how it plays out:

After showdown, the dealer mucks the losing hands, awards the pot to the winner, collects his cards, and moves the dealer button, announcing "player down' to floor. Play doesn't stop until all of those things have occurred.

When player B2 arrives from the other table, he is to take the seat with worst possible position in regards to the upcoming big blind. The only way he would sit down in the SB seat is if it were the only available seat at the table...... in which case he cannot be seated as the SB per the rules, and must sit out one hand until the button passes.

If other seats than B1's vacant SB spot are open, B2 is seated at the position that will get the BB soonest.

 

[BGinGA]

Also note that if B1 was destined to be the BB on the next hand (busting out UTG), then that's where B2 goes -- directly to the BB seat.

I've never seen tournament players forced to move/switch seats to accommodate a new player who was moved to the table. To address Ben's point, he is always moved to a vacant seat (not necessarily the one just vacated). If more than one vacant seat, he always gets the one that will result in him posting the BB soonest. It's actually quite a simple rule.

 

[Ronoh]

I've never seen tournament players forced to move/switch seats to accommodate a new player who was moved to the table.

I actually saw this once, happened at a professionally dealt chippers Meat-Up. Was very strange but I'm not one to tell anyone how their games should be dealt

 

[Poker Zombie]

Which seat the B2 landed in wasn't the issue - about to be BB goes to the first open seat to be the BB. I guess that if the button moves as the last step in a hand, instead of the first step then everything works out.

Like I said, I should already know this. It was just in the process of writing that apparently I discovered my brain was wired by Microsoft and crashed. (n) :thumbsdown:

 

[Poker Zombie]

Nope, still crashing...

If I am reading @BGinGA correctly, in this 8 player setup, Mr Green is KOed, and Mr Pink takes his place. BB moved before Mr Pink sits, so Pink sits out a hand. If he sits out 1 hand, He would get the button on his next hand, and Mr Blue would miss a deal. That can't be right.

If Blue gets to deal, Pink misses 2 hands, this sounds like a penalty.

 

[Mr Tree]

Nope, still crashing...

If I am reading @BGinGA correctly, in this 8 player setup, Mr Green is KOed, and Mr Pink takes his place. BB moved before Mr Pink sits, so Pink sits out a hand. If he sits out 1 hand, He would get the button on his next hand, and Mr Blue would miss a deal. That can't be right.
View attachment 19176
If Blue gets to deal, Pink misses 2 hands, this sounds like a penalty.

Did anyone else have a total Reservoir Dogs moment reading this?

 

[Ronoh]

New guy is the BB in hand 302. Button moved but blinds haven't posted.

 

[BGinGA]

^ This. Blinds don't move, but the dealer button does. Opportunity to stick the FNG with the BB is taken.

 

[BPTDirector]

As BG says don't make it too difficult. If you do it te way he describes it is the exact intent of what Robert's rules states. Also if you do it that way no one will ever pay the BB twice in a row.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Putting it in technicolor seems to help, and yes I was thinking of Resivouir Dogs while doing this - who wise would fight over a SB? Anyways, I cannot seem to replicate my initial problem once I made everything visual, which leads me to think I was creating a non-existing problem (though I reserve the right to find it again later on).

Sometime the wording throws me though:

fter showdown, the dealer mucks the losing hands, awards the pot to the winner, collects his cards, and moves the dealer button, announcing "player down' to floor. Play doesn't stop until all of those things have occurred.

^ This. Blinds don't move, but the dealer button does. Opportunity to stick the FNG with the BB is taken.

This infers that the blinds didn't move, but of course they do move - nobody gets hit with the same blind in consecutive hands.

3 scenarios, still working with the idea that the player just comes in and takes the responsibilities of the KOed player. I think this is right...