Tourney Can someone explain antes to me? (2 Viewers)

[Sparkynutz]

I played dealers choice for cash for many years and everyone at the table would throw in somewhere between 25c to $1 before receiving a hand to play. Betting continued normally until hand was done.

Then I started playing Holdem with small blind, big blind and anyone that wanted to play their hand had to call the big blind or raise and still may not see the flop if someone else raised too much for them to want to call.

If an ante is added to a holdem tournament, is that on top of the small blind and big blind or not? I searched a while and was more confused by what I read than before trying to find out.

If the small blind is 50, big blind is 100, and ante is set at smallest chip on the table (25) if all the players pay 25 before receiving their cards to the pot would the small blind big blind players be putting 75 and 125 in before they receive cards or just the 50, 100?

When the other players call, what would be the total they put in? 100 total or 125 to see the flop?

 

[pltrgyst]

We play with antes and uncles.

Everyone antes, but once the antes are rendered, the uncles -- the players who were the blinds in the previous hand -- take those blind amounts from the pot. Play then progresses normally.

This works best if you're playing stud, because the uncles -- wait for it -- are all studs.

No charge -- always glad gto help a confused newbie...

 

[Sparkynutz]

Why would the last hand have anything to do with current hand ante?
With what you're saying a player with big blind or little blind that goes all in and is knocked out takes their blind back the next hand? So they'd still be in? That makes even less sense than how either of the two ways I thought it would be posted above.

 

[TheOffalo]

For cash games, antes are generally found with stud games. Everyone antes a small amount, and then instead of a blind, there's a mandatory bring-in for the worst "door" card (the first face-up card in stud). Sometimes instead of getting each player to put in an ante, the dealer may ante for everyone. This works if the same game is being played for at least an entire orbit, so everyone takes a turn being the dealer and anteing for everyone else.

In tournaments, antes are used to help build the pot without increasing the blinds too quickly. Again, everyone antes every hand, but to help speed things up, many tournaments are going to big-blind antes. So that means, if the blinds are 500/1000, SB puts in 500, BB puts in 1000, and then BB puts another 1000 into the pot for the money. The ante is "dead" meaning it's not a bet or raise, it's just part of the pot.

Here's a thread on what people do if you're short-stacked and can't pay both the ante and the BB in a big-blind ante tournament: https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/big-blind-ante-cant-post-his-blind-and-the-entire-ante.51202/

 

[Silver_Fiend]

Hate antes in tourneys.

 

[Sparkynutz]

Why would big blind be the only one to ante and why would it be so big? If blinds are 500, 1000, the smallest chip would be 500 or 100 depending on color up. Shouldn't everyone that receives a card have to ante 100 or 500 prior? No ante no cards. Good cards then call the blind or bet. Making big blind basicly pay twice and nobody else would make me not even want to play. If big blind gets crap cards they are so committed they have almost no choice but play them.
Making everyone else pay 100 would sweeten the pot from the majority that folds and amount would be small enough to not force a crap card holding player to be pot committed.

Making ante not a part of the bet pot makes sense, but that's where it ends.

Every way it's explained just sounds asinine to the point I don't see why anyone would consider playing like that in the first place.

 

[kaida]

It's to expedite play. Instead of the dealer needing to make sure everyone has paid the ante, each player pays their whole orbit's ante once per orbit -- when they're the big blind. One person for the dealer to check on, no change to be bothered with, and play continues. Everyone pays the same amount of ante per orbit.

You shouldn't think of your ante as "your" money, it's dead money.

 

[Silver_Fiend]

Here, "expedite play" is meaning "force players to blind out faster"

 

[Nymor]

With BB ante you still end up putting approx same amount in per orbit as you would if everyone antes a small amount each hand but without the inevitable "who hasn't put their ante in" every time when self dealt.

 

[Sparkynutz]

Here, "expedite play" is meaning "force players to blind out faster"

Then why not just have blinds be higher?
It would make more sense if it was done once per orbit to reduce confusion and who missed etc if it was pretty much anybody except big blind since many times they are already pot committed anyways.

 

[Frogzilla]

Antes improve action and tournament play by improving pot odds which is probably why every casino and card room in the country does antes for their hold ‘em tournaments. Without antes, the ICM forces optimum ranges to be very, very tight. In my experience people “blind out” much more without antes than with antes.

Antes are always before cards dealt and dragged into pot pre action.

Table antes / big blind antes have become nearly ubiquitous, it does speed up the game in terms of hands/hour and annoying “who didn’t ante” convos, but also there are less physical chips in play and the chips in play get colored up sooner. That’s the complaint about it from the non-chip “side paint” crew as well, less chips to build castles with. I dunno. I don’t host tourneys much post Covid but BBA seems like a must just because it’s everywhere now.

 

[Frogzilla]

Then why not just have blinds be higher?
It would make more sense if it was done once per orbit to reduce confusion and who missed etc if it was pretty much anybody except big blind since many times they are already pot committed anyways.

Higher blinds don’t affect pot odds

 

[RocAFella1]

Sister of your mom or dad. Can be overly touchy-feely and complain about everything.

 

[upNdown]

I’m sure somebody’s said this already, but antes aren’t live. They’re just an extra something that’s there and they don’t affect the blinds or the betting in any way in no limit Holdem.

 

[upNdown]

Then why not just have blinds be higher?
It would make more sense if it was done once per orbit to reduce confusion and who missed etc if it was pretty much anybody except big blind since many times they are already pot committed anyways.

If you’ve played enough tournaments without antes and you’ve played enough tournaments with antes, you’d see how they affect play.
But you’re not alone with your questions or objections to big blind antes. They first started getting popular like 5 years ago, and they were controversial for a while. But mostly because people don’t like change.

 

[BGinGA]

With BB ante you still end up putting approx same amount in per orbit as you would if everyone antes a small amount each hand

^ This is absolutely not true, unless the amount of the posted ante changes based on the number of players at the table.

Overall, the amount of total antes paid per player per orbit is much higher with a table ante (BBA or otherwise) than it would be for individually-posted antes -- because the table ante is a fixed amount regardless of table size, while the total ante outlay per player per orbit gets progressively smaller as the table size decreases when using individually-posted antes

.

Here, "expedite play" is meaning "force players to blind out faster"

Table antes don't force players to "blind out faster", but they do decimate player stacks quicker than individually-posted antes (see above). And individually-posted antes decimate stacks quicker than no antes, all other variables being the same.

In my experience people “blind out” much more without antes than with antes.

The math doesn't back that up. The chip pressure on any given stack size is greater with antes being deducted than when not.

But several of your other points are valid (antes promote action, expedite play, etc.).

 

[upNdown]

The math doesn't back that up. The chip pressure on any given stack size is greater with antes being deducted than when not.

But several of your other points are valid (antes promote action, expedite play, etc.).

Yeah but I can see it. That pressure forces you to make moves, probably earlier than you would with no antes.

 

[Legend5555]

Hate antes in tourneys.

NLHE in theory should always be played with antes in every format. Otherwise the blinds themselves aren't really enough incentive to get involved. At a 9 handed table with no antes, it is mathematically city to play something like 15% or less VPIP on average.

Tournaments without antes are near torture especially near the money or during pay jumps because it's often correct to just not play any hands even at less than 10bb.

Why would big blind be the only one to ante and why would it be so big? If blinds are 500, 1000, the smallest chip would be 500 or 100 depending on color up. Shouldn't everyone that receives a card have to ante 100 or 500 prior? No ante no cards. Good cards then call the blind or bet. Making big blind basicly pay twice and nobody else would make me not even want to play. If big blind gets crap cards they are so committed they have almost no choice but play them.
Making everyone else pay 100 would sweeten the pot from the majority that folds and amount would be small enough to not force a crap card holding player to be pot committed.

Making ante not a part of the bet pot makes sense, but that's where it ends.

Every way it's explained just sounds asinine to the point I don't see why anyone would consider playing like that in the first place.

See above.

It's mostly to induce action and make pots with playing for from the get go. If one person starts to raise pre flop more often to win the blinds and antes and the others don't adjust, that player is going to win a ton of money long term.

Just imagine a $2/$5 blind game with no antes for a minute. If a player at a 9 handed table was able to raise and win the blinds twice per orbit, they would be profiting $7 per orbit. At live dealing speeds, that's around $10/hr. Throw in a $5 big blind ante, and now it like $15-18/hr. So if people don't increase the number of hands they play, they are missing out on a ton of money.

Here, "expedite play" is meaning "force players to blind out faster"

If you think that, then it means you likely don't shove enough when you get short stacked.

Or maybe you do and others don't and you want to be nice to them for some reason.

Then why not just have blinds be higher?
It would make more sense if it was done once per orbit to reduce confusion and who missed etc if it was pretty much anybody except big blind since many times they are already pot committed anyways.

As @Frogzilla said. Pot odds. Antes increase pot odds, thus increasing the number of hands you should play.

The math doesn't back that up. The chip pressure on any given stack size is greater with antes being deducted than when not.

I think @Frogzilla means that with the extra pressure, people are more apt to jam and try to double than just blind down. Which is why they don't blind out as often in ante tournaments. But how you define "blind out" matters I guess.

 

[pltrgyst]

Why would the last hand have anything to do with current hand ante?
With what you're saying a player with big blind or little blind that goes all in and is knocked out takes their blind back the next hand? So they'd still be in? That makes even less sense than how either of the two ways I thought it would be posted above.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Tournaments without antes are near torture especially near the money or during pay jumps because it's often correct to just not play any hands even at less than 10bb.

Yes.

I would never play in a tournament without antes.

 

[tooth_doc]

Hate antes in tourneys.

Totally agree. Seems like they only speed up the 'drain' on stacks.

 

[Legend5555]

Totally agree. Seems like they only speed up the 'drain' on stacks.

That's kind of the point. To force people into action more.

 

[ekricket]

Tournaments without antes are near torture especially near the money or during pay jumps because it's often correct to just not play any hands even at less than 10bb.

Why is this torture? Is it torture to do any other Mathematically correct poker related things, like assess pot odds or calculate ranges? Why is strategy torture?

 

[Legend5555]

Why is this torture? Is it torture to do any other Mathematically correct poker related things, like assess pot odds or calculate ranges? Why is strategy torture?

Just because it's correct doesn't mean it's fun to deal with or interesting.

 

[upNdown]

Just because it's correct doesn't mean it's fun to deal with or interesting.

Personally, whether it’s antes or no antes, I get off on trying to figure out my best strategies for whatever particular format I’m playing. Trying to find an edge on the competition is a psychological edge even if it’s not a real edge.

 

[Mandos]

I disagree with a lot of what Negreanu says in general, but this post is actually spot on when it comes to antes' effect on tournaments: https://danielnegreanu.com/antes-in-tournaments/

 

[Mr Winberg]

I hosted homegame tournaments for a looong time without antes. Then I tried having regular antes and I never went back to hosting without them! The benefits to gameplay when having antes definitely outweighed the hassle of regular antes, IME.

Then came Big Blind antes and after I tried it I never went back to regular.

BBA > Regular antes >>>> No antes
In my opinion, of course.
And also mathematically...

For cashgames I don't mind playing without them, though.

 

[upNdown]

I disagree with a lot of what Negreanu says in general, but this post is actually spot on when it comes to antes' effect on tournaments: https://danielnegreanu.com/antes-in-tournaments/

That must be pretty old, because it seems it discuss individual antes. But I’d expect the concepts are pretty similar with big blind antes.
And yeah, it’s easy to have opinions about him, but as far as tournaments go, Negreanu certainly knows what he’s talking about.