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Not Mine Craigslist Las Vegas - 1000 New Key West $1 White Chips (3 Viewers)

Dennis, do you recall how many $1 chips you sent back as defective? Were there other denomination chips also returned as defective? And do you mind sharing the nature of the defects involved? I understand if you'd rather not, but it may help others identify defective chips found in the open market.
 
manamongkids said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-72-K...G-/371499000863?&_trksid=p2056016.m2516.l5255

can i buy these and redeem these too?
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No. Only blue $1 Key West chips may be redeemed for their face value in cash.

The chips in this eBay add are offered by Spinettis, a reputable dealer, with a guarantee. I don't know where Spinettis obtained the chips, but I will inquire at theit retail store in the morning.

These chips could be from Red and ASM Las Vegas, but they could also be from the original run of Key Wests in 2004, made by Jim B and Old ASM Portland and sold by Apache.
 
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dennis63 said:
I don't know where Spinettis obtained the chips, but I will inquire at theit retail store in the morning.
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The Spinetti's clerk I spoke with this morning could not say where they got the chips. He referred me to their general manager, who will be in Thursday.
 
sleepypiggly said:
Maybe he can also explain where they got these too. Seems like a lot of these “extras” of people’s custom sets are popping up these days.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/58-CLAY-25-...-CHIPS-FLAME-MOLD-FREE-SHIPPING-/371285278825

http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/threads/introducing-the-panthera-club-bcc-customs.57541/

http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/media/albums/mrcashflows-bcc-customs-the-panthera-club.163/
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More of what appear to be (two I know for certain are) individuals' custom ASMs:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/180-CLAY-AV...377283?hash=item463ce56503:g:r04AAOSwPcVViFc0

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-of-4-AV...384546?hash=item463ce58162:g:TQ4AAOSwv0tU7iXB

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-CLAY-50...475809?hash=item463ce6e5e1:g:puEAAOSw9N1ViHaJ

http://www.ebay.com/itm/PIMPDAWGS-C...355831?hash=item4640789837:g:1OQAAOSw0JpV5jZ2

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-3-MA...694995?hash=item462348f693:g:z00AAOxySoJTWYsd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60-CLAY-ASM...396558?hash=item4642bd0cce:g:SlIAAOSw~bFWHVEO

And they also have a ton of ASM advertising chips and chips that were obviously made in-house for distribution to commercial clients (PokerStars chips and others that were obviously going to commercial entities). Too many to link to here, but if you scroll through Spinetti's "Individual Casino Chips" category, you'll see them.

It seems reasonably likely that they picked up ASM's "new old stock" when it went under.

They also have some of what would appear to be BCC extras in addition to the Panthera chips linked to by sleepypiggly above:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/45-GRAND-CA...585542?hash=item46403f1086:g:0nMAAOSwT6pV4JWy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/SET-OF-7-BL...640740?hash=item56724a03e4:g:SnkAAOSwPhdVCLss

I guess they can clear some of it up when they speak with Dennis. It's definitely not reassuring, though. I hate to think of a bunch of my extras ending up for sale at Spinetti's one day. Obviously the likelihood is low that one of my players would find one and try to cash it in at the game and even less likely that I wouldn't recognize it as one I hadn't put into play that night, but it's concerning nonetheless.
 
Ugh, what a dirtball POS Red Ott is. Dennis, I hope this has little impact on your business. Can these be reported to police as stolen or at least fraudulent seller?
 
I can add a little to this discussion. I did quite a bit of investigation when the Maggini's showed up on Spinetti's eBay.

1. When Michael bought ASM, it came with 30,000+ chips. This included Key West and Avalon in quantity that were originally sold by Josh and other vendors (including myself), ASM generic chip sets, and various orders which appear to be people's custom chips but were actually either returned orders or orders never paid for. All these chips were bought by Mike Spinetti and every month since then, they pluck a few racks off the palette and put them on eBay.
2. There was also a collection in binders of 'one of each' of a lot of stuff including factory samples, samples for vendors, and a few odd custom chips. I went through a lot of that and snagged a few old ASM samples for my collection. There was only one of each of these, so where you see sets o3, 4 etc. listed on eBay, that is all there is.
3. Then, towards the end of the ASM Vegas life, someone (apparently Red's son, Trey) showed up at Spinetti's with a bunch more stuff including the rack of Maggini's chips. I went over all the stuff in that batch with them and could not identify anything else that was anyone's custom order. This bunch included things like racks of H mold blanks etc. which have been listed on eBay.

Now, when I was in Vegas negotiating the purchase and looking at the inventory I saw a dozen or so boxes marked 'Key West'. I did open one or two for a sneak look at what they were and did at first glance think they were rejects. Now seeing Dennis comment about returns it is highly likely that they were returned chips and those are the ones that Red is selling now.

Other than color sample blanks etc. I saw no other chip inventory at the factory.

I have no problem with anything that Spinetti is selling. If something shows up on eBay that does belong to someone, give them or me a shout and it will get sorted, just like Mike's were.
 
David Spragg said:
I have no problem with anything that Spinetti is selling. If something shows up on eBay that does belong to someone, give them or me a shout and it will get sorted, just like Mike's were.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that background, David. I didn't mean to suggest that Spinetti's is necessarily wrong to sell what they have in stock now. Though I also don't know the law with regard to selling items emblazoned with another's intellectual property.

In any case, I was only bemoaning what is at best an irritating position Red has put a lot of people in as a result of his actions.
 
"Though I also don't know the law with regard to selling items emblazoned with another's intellectual property."
They were not someone else's intellectual property at the time they were sold to Spinetti.
If we make you a set of custom chips and then you don't take delivery (because something happens and you can't afford them) and we refund you, those chips are ours to do what we please with, regardless of what is printed on them. That's why I don't have an issue with any of the stock Spinetti had that was once Jim's, as it 'passed with good title'

Whoever Dennis spoke to today almost certainly did not have the history of where they came from. Mikko and Rosanne, who do know, don't work on Wednesday's.

As for the craigs list lot, I can't say for sure they were Dennis's returns, or if they were the exact chips I saw. I also don't know if Red refunded or replaced them, so I can't say whether he has the right to sell them or not. While manufacturers do produce overruns, as I've explained before it is not usually deliberate, just what is needed to cover rejects. Sometimes we throw in a few extras when shipping the order. That is because there were a few extras. We are pretty good at guessing the number we have to make and if there are excess blanks prior to pressing the inlays then they are stuck with CPC inlays and used for samples. In the rare occasion there are too many produced and passing inspection, the extras end up getting ground up.
Now while I can believe Red did not follow that path, I have a hard time believing he would have deliberately made a large number of extras of anything when he had enough trouble making what had been ordered.

It is even possible that Michael did not turn over the entire inventory he got from Jim at the start and Red ended up with chips from Jim. We will probably never know that.
 
David Spragg said:
"Though I also don't know the law with regard to selling items emblazoned with another's intellectual property."
They were not someone else's intellectual property at the time they were sold to Spinetti.
If we make you a set of custom chips and then you don't take delivery (because something happens and you can't afford them) and we refund you, those chips are ours to do what we please with, regardless of what is printed on them. That's why I don't have an issue with any of the stock Spinetti had that was once Jim's, as it 'passed with good title'
Click to expand...

I'm well out of my depth, so I don't pretend to have an understanding of IP issues.

What if, for instance, a customer orders a set using art commissioned by the customer and created by a third-party designer and there are extras produced that the customer was not given the option to buy and were retained by the manufacturer? Could those chips be properly sold by the manufacturer to another vendor and could that vendor then resell the items to another consumer?

I think @pltrgyst could be helpful in this regard if he cares to discuss.
 
jbutler said:
I'm well out of my depth, so I don't pretend to have an understanding of IP issues.

What if, for instance, a customer orders a set using art commissioned by the customer and created by a third-party designer and there are extras produced that the customer was not given the option to buy and were retained by the manufacturer? Could those chips be properly sold by the manufacturer to another vendor and could that vendor then resell the items to another consumer?

I think @pltrgyst could be helpful in this regard if he cares to discuss.
Click to expand...

No they could not be!!
 
David Spragg said:
When Michael bought ASM, it came with 30,000+ chips. This included Key West and Avalon in quantity that were originally sold by Josh and other vendors (including myself), were bought by Mike Spinetti and every month since then, they pluck a few racks off the palette and put them on eBay. [...]

Now, when I was in Vegas negotiating the purchase and looking at the inventory I saw a dozen or so boxes marked 'Key West'. I did open one or two for a sneak look at what they were and did at first glance think they were rejects. Now seeing Dennis comment about returns it is highly likely that they were returned chips and those are the ones that Red is selling now.

I have no problem with anything that Spinetti is selling. If something shows up on eBay that does belong to someone, give them or me a shout and it will get sorted, just like Mike's were.
Click to expand...

David -- Thank you for this. It's good information. I appreciate the great work you've done for me, and I realize you are not a part of this.

I am not concerned at all that Spinetti's (or anyone else) is selling Key West chips. (I like Spinetti's. They have great stuff.)

I am concerned that Red (or anyone else) might be selling sub-par Key West chips which I have rejected as unacceptable and returned, expecting them to be replaced or refunded. (Those things didn't happen, so one could argue that the chips Red is currently selling are technically still my property, since I paid for them. Red went out of business before replacing or refunding the chips, and David's new company understandably had no association with him and could not clean up the mess he made.)

For me, it is enough that Classic Poker Chips makes superb Key West chips for me.
 
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dennis63 said:
David -- Thank you for this. It's good information. I appreciate the great work you've done for me, and I realize you are not a part of this.

I am not concerned at all that Spinetti's (or anyone else) is selling Key West chips. (I like Spinetti's. They have great stuff.)

I am concerned that Red (or anyone else) might be selling sub-par Key West chips which I have rejected as unacceptable and returned, expecting them to be replaced or refunded. (Those things didn't happen, so one could argue that the chips Red is currently selling are technically still my property, since I paid for them. Red went out of business before replacing or refunding the chips, and David's new company understandably had no association with him and could not clean up the mess he made.)

For me, it is enough that Classic Poker Chips makes superb Key West chips for me.
Click to expand...

I didn't have enough information to make the call but if these are your returns then then no he has no right to sell them, end of story.
FWIW, there was a 4 week gap between me concluding the purchase of ASM and Red closing up shop. This was allowed for Red to complete outstanding orders including a couple involving replacements.
Your name/chips were never on the list.
My initial terms of purchase offered Red a number of options (which naturally affected the price) including us making good later in Maine, us providing the manpower to make good in Vegas, him simply refunding the affected parties (and then us trying to start afresh with them) or him fulfilling his obligations. He took the last option. As far as I know he completed all outstanding orders (although the level of quality is another issue entirely), refunded one customer (not in full) and tried to screw another who eventually got his refund via chargeback 6 months after the fact.

Originally we had hoped to be in a position to try and help right the wrongs when we got going, but he deliberately wiped the last few months records and artwork before handing over, and the equipment damage and shortfall set us back so far in time and money that we were not in a position to do anything.

I did not even know at the time that you were the owner/seller of Key West. It's the first time I had seen any of the chips since I was selling them with Josh 10 years ago. I guess I thought nothing of it when I saw them sitting there.
 
jbutler said:
Thanks for that background, David. I didn't mean to suggest that Spinetti's is necessarily wrong to sell what they have in stock now. Though I also don't know the law with regard to selling items emblazoned with another's intellectual property.

In any case, I was only bemoaning what is at best an irritating position Red has put a lot of people in as a result of his actions.
Click to expand...

PS - I was of course specifically referring to the items Spinetti has for sale, having investigated their ownership path. That doesn't mean that anyone has the right to sell anything :) :)
 
David Spragg said:
I didn't have enough information to make the call but if these are your returns then then no he has no right to sell them, end of story.
FWIW, there was a 4 week gap between me concluding the purchase of ASM and Red closing up shop. This was allowed for Red to complete outstanding orders including a couple involving replacements.
Your name/chips were never on the list.
My initial terms of purchase offered Red a number of options (which naturally affected the price) including us making good later in Maine, us providing the manpower to make good in Vegas, him simply refunding the affected parties (and then us trying to start afresh with them) or him fulfilling his obligations. He took the last option. As far as I know he completed all outstanding orders (although the level of quality is another issue entirely), refunded one customer (not in full) and tried to screw another who eventually got his refund via chargeback 6 months after the fact.

Originally we had hoped to be in a position to try and help right the wrongs when we got going, but he deliberately wiped the last few months records and artwork before handing over, and the equipment damage and shortfall set us back so far in time and money that we were not in a position to do anything.

I did not even know at the time that you were the owner/seller of Key West. It's the first time I had seen any of the chips since I was selling them with Josh 10 years ago. I guess I thought nothing of it when I saw them sitting there.
Click to expand...
The HItching Post initial order was in that period. My God, how lucky was I that not only I got my full order but they weren't completely wrecked.
 
David Spragg said:
As far as I know he completed all outstanding orders (although the level of quality is another issue entirely), refunded one customer (not in full) and tried to screw another who eventually got his refund via chargeback 6 months after the fact.
Click to expand...

A sidebar for the record; I'm not certain if I'm included on this list but if so, Red did not meet his obligations. The "refunded customer not in full" would most closely fit my situation but all I got was some chip cases I couldn't use for fear I'd get nothing. I received no refund from Red and didn't get all the chips I ordered, RIP 300 x $2 chips I've never been able to get.

20130830_012459_zpsa31ec894.JPG
 
courage said:
A sidebar for the record; I'm not certain if I'm included on this list but if so, Red did not meet his obligations. The "refunded customer not in full" would most closely fit my situation but all I got was some chip cases I couldn't use for fear I'd get nothing. I received no refund from Red and didn't get all the chips I ordered, RIP 300 x $2 chips I've never been able to get.

View attachment 23891
Click to expand...

I mean, to be fair, trying to get a hold of the chips pictured would be a bit like a woman trying to claw into the biohazard dumpster to get her abortion back.
 
David Spragg said:
FWIW, there was a 4 week gap between me concluding the purchase of ASM and Red closing up shop. This was allowed for Red to complete outstanding orders including a couple involving replacements.
Your name/chips were never on the list.
My initial terms of purchase offered Red a number of options (which naturally affected the price) including us making good later in Maine, us providing the manpower to make good in Vegas, him simply refunding the affected parties (and then us trying to start afresh with them) or him fulfilling his obligations. He took the last option. As far as I know he completed all outstanding orders (although the level of quality is another issue entirely), refunded one customer (not in full) and tried to screw another who eventually got his refund via chargeback 6 months after the fact.

Originally we had hoped to be in a position to try and help right the wrongs when we got going, but he deliberately wiped the last few months records and artwork before handing over, and the equipment damage and shortfall set us back so far in time and money that we were not in a position to do anything.

I did not even know at the time that you were the owner/seller of Key West. It's the first time I had seen any of the chips since I was selling them with Josh 10 years ago. I guess I thought nothing of it when I saw them sitting there.
Click to expand...

None of this surprises me. It's very consistent with Red's modus operandi. The loss I took because of Red is water under the bridge right now. If Spinetti's acquired any Key Wests in good faith, I have no issue with Spinetti's. I also know there are lots of good "Old ASM" Key Wests out there from the first issue in 2004.

I am not surprised that Red left me off his "list," or that he wiped the records on his way out. His decision to take the last option and "fulfill his obligations" was really a choice to retain the power to screw customers he didn't like and judge if and how they should be compensated, but there was no way for you to know that.
 
David Spragg said:
"Though I also don't know the law with regard to selling items emblazoned with another's intellectual property."
They were not someone else's intellectual property at the time they were sold to Spinetti.
If we make you a set of custom chips and then you don't take delivery (because something happens and you can't afford them) and we refund you, those chips are ours to do what we please with, regardless of what is printed on them....
Click to expand...

If a case like this comes up, David, I'd suggest you talk to an American IP attorney.

In the US, the above is completely wrong. They certainly were someone else's intellectual property from the moment they were created. Your safeguard is to receive payment in full before production. If you choose to refund for any reason, that is your business decision, but it gives you no rights in the IP.

Barring specific provisions in the production contract, the manufacturer has zero rights in the design. Your obligation would be to destroy the product or otherwise recycle it so that the intellectual property is no longer recognizable. This applies to any overrun of production as well -- your options would be to sell to the customer, get permission from the customer to do otherwise, or destroy the overrun.

I always wondered whether ASM had permission from their customers to use the images of chips they produced, such as my avatar, on their Web advertising...
 
pltrgyst said:
If a case like this comes up, David, I'd suggest you talk to an American IP attorney.

In the US, the above is completely wrong. They certainly were someone else's intellectual property from the moment they were created. Your safeguard is to receive payment in full before production. If you choose to refund for any reason, that is your business decision, but it gives you no rights in the IP.

Barring specific provisions in the production contract, the manufacturer has zero rights in the design. Your obligation would be to destroy the product or otherwise recycle it so that the intellectual property is no longer recognizable. This applies to any overrun of production as well -- your options would be to sell to the customer, get permission from the customer to do otherwise, or destroy the overrun.

I always wondered whether ASM had permission from their customers to use the images of chips they produced, such as my avatar, on their Web advertising...
Click to expand...

As I tried to clarify in a later post I was specifically referring to the chips being offered by Spinetti's, being in the knowledge that Jim owned the IP rights which then passed to Michael and then Spinetti, and I pointed out that this does not apply 'across the board'. I felt I had already typed enough by then. :)

Your avatar is a chipco isn't it? :)
The disclaimer at the bottom of this page:
http://www.classicpokerchips.com/contact.htm
is just about identical to that used by not just all chip manufacturers, but manufacturers of any custom products.

As you say, in a way, we take the easy way out. 100% payment up front. Refunds in really exceptional circumstances only (other than where provided for by law) and any extras or returns destroyed not least because they clutter up the place anyway!!
 
David Spragg said:
As I tried to clarify in a later post I was specifically referring to the chips being offered by Spinetti's, being in the knowledge that Jim owned the IP rights which then passed to Michael and then Spinetti, and I pointed out that this does not apply 'across the board'. I felt I had already typed enough by then. :)

Your avatar is a chipco isn't it? :)
The disclaimer at the bottom of this page:
http://www.classicpokerchips.com/contact.htm
is just about identical to that used by not just all chip manufacturers, but manufacturers of any custom products.

As you say, in a way, we take the easy way out. 100% payment up front. Refunds in really exceptional circumstances only (other than where provided for by law) and any extras or returns destroyed not least because they clutter up the place anyway!!
Click to expand...

I do seem to recall there being something funky about the rights to the Avalon design such as they were retained by someone other than Matt (@imthatguy on CT). And the other chips which appear to be customs in the Spinetti's listings do resemble the style of design that was produced in-house at ASM years ago, so that all makes sense.
 
courage said:
A sidebar for the record; I'm not certain if I'm included on this list but if so, Red did not meet his obligations. The "refunded customer not in full" would most closely fit my situation but all I got was some chip cases I couldn't use for fear I'd get nothing. I received no refund from Red and didn't get all the chips I ordered, RIP 300 x $2 chips I've never been able to get.

View attachment 23891
Click to expand...

As far as we knew, Red had 'fulfilled his obligations' to you. The refunded not in full was Meatboy. Of course as Dennis pointed out we didn't have full information and that was one of the reasons we purchased the assets of ASM only and let the company name go. (That was of course "American Standard Molding"). Jim never handed over "Atlantic Standard Molding" in the first place and pokerchipsonline.com was a separate business so we ended up with those anyway. 'ASM' just wasn't a good name to continue marketing with though.
 
jbutler said:
I do seem to recall there being something funky about the rights to the Avalon design such as they were retained by someone other than Matt (@imthatguy on CT). And the other chips which appear to be customs in the Spinetti's listings do resemble the style of design that was produced in-house at ASM years ago, so that all makes sense.
Click to expand...


I think there are 2 or even 3 different Avalon designs. When I first saw them I jumped and thought 'those are someone elses' but was proved wrong :)
 
pltrgyst said:
If a case like this comes up, David, I'd suggest you talk to an American IP attorney.

In the US, the above is completely wrong. They certainly were someone else's intellectual property from the moment they were created. Your safeguard is to receive payment in full before production. If you choose to refund for any reason, that is your business decision, but it gives you no rights in the IP.

Barring specific provisions in the production contract, the manufacturer has zero rights in the design. Your obligation would be to destroy the product or otherwise recycle it so that the intellectual property is no longer recognizable. This applies to any overrun of production as well -- your options would be to sell to the customer, get permission from the customer to do otherwise, or destroy the overrun.

I always wondered whether ASM had permission from their customers to use the images of chips they produced, such as my avatar, on their Web advertising...
Click to expand...

Here is an interesting point though. For all the keeping images of every chip made and me retaining a single sample, I am yet to have one customer ever ask me if they could see samples of any designs we've made for anyone else. :)
 
Even more interesting. The 72 Key West chips auction on eBay has been ended. Dennis, did you buy them? :) :)
 
@pltrgyst
Hey, I just found something for you :) :)

Your avatar chip. The chipco record says it was a home set donated by chipco to "Downeast Engraving"

I believe they were the company that chipco used to engrave serial numbers on chips. Good bet that as chipco were on Downeast Drive they were 'next door'.
 

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