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Do you use a card guard? (2 Viewers)

If I were to ever use one, I'd go with Humberto Brenes's cute little Shark, which also happens to be my avatar on every site where you can upload your own picture.

Shark Card Protector.jpg
 
Sorry for crappy picture. PGI offered these for customization a few years ago. I use this sometime.

Perrycardcover-1.jpg

I also put a sample set of Paulson Zodiacs, and another sample of Paulson Chinese New Year chips in airtites and I make those available for guests when I host. People use them frequently. I warn them to protect their cards.

Also, I live in a area with a lot of military, so we see a lot of challenge coins used as card covers...
 
I'm in the chip in an airtite camp as well. If I forget one, any chip from my stack will do.

Mark
 
guinness said:
i try to but it never sticks. Also, when you play every single hand, a card guard gets annoying.
Click to expand...

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I dumped my card cover box out. All kinds of chips and trinkets. They all started out as a lucky hand protector, turned into junk in the drawer. :)

The three solid silver poker chips are faves. The level says "ez read" which, turns out, refers more to my poker play :)

There is a meteorite (see if you can find it), there is lapis lazuli, there is crystals, there is glass from Venice, there is a ebony and turquoise guitar pick.

 
Jeff said:
I dumped my card cover box out. All kinds of chips and trinkets. They all started out as a lucky hand protector, turned into junk in the drawer. :)

The three solid silver poker chips are faves. The level says "ez read" which, turns out, refers more to my poker play :)

There is a meteorite (see if you can find it), there is lapis lazuli, there is crystals, there is glass from Venice, there is a ebony and turquoise guitar pick.

Click to expand...

ha ha ha
I saw all these treasures and remembered my girls ...
they would say that you are just rich !! :)
 
bergs said:
I never do. I never let go of my cards from the time I get them to when I muck them. I put my fingers on either side on my left hand flat on the table (and I'm usually shuffling with my right hand). I don't think I give anything away, like shake tells or anything like that, so this generally works for me.
Click to expand...

I strongly advise you to change your strategy if you're playing against strong opponents. I read this post and just cringed when I read, "I'm usually shuffling with my right hand. I don't think I give anything away..."

Players that shuffle their cards while in a hand give A LOT away. I can tell if you're on a draw or if you have a made hand almost every time if you're a "shuffler". It's a habit that I strongly advise you to break. You should place a marker/chips on your cards. Look at them once, and don't look back - unless you're making a play at someone by looking at them.
 
I find card guards annoying too. I never let go of my cards unless its my action and I need two hands to bet. I dont trust people to muck their cards properly, I have seen plenty of card guards fail when a player mucks improperly, holding my cards makes it impossible to fail.
 
I have read somewhere that there's a general consensus (from serious players) that people with card guards and bobbles are all donks, and that the pros in Vegas actually look for these when choosing a table to sit at. Well, I might be a donk, but I'm ok if my abilities are underrated by others at the table.

Secondly, I'll tell a story from the first MTTD. Two players in the tourney were involved in a hefty pot, and down to the turn/river, there were a lot of chips in the middle. The dealer accidentally mucked/snagged the presumptive winner's cards, and I was called over to rule. My first question to the guy who lost his cards, "were your cards protected?". His answer was no, easy ruling. @links_slayer was sitting at the table, and could probably correct me if I'm getting the story wrong.
 
Frequently, but not always using a card protector. It's just good habit that never gets in the way. I just have to make sure that it's not the same size or shape as the chips in play (airtite works well here).

As for the "card capper = donk" - I disagree. It tells me something about the player though.
  • Home game chip = home game player.
  • Chip from the stack = calculating player.
  • Hands covering most of the cards = donk (but that's because they're about to lift the cards off the table to read them like a bridge hand, or their stack is low enough to put their hands directly in front).
  • Uncapped cards, especially in the 10 seat = new to casino play.
Bobble varies by the type of bobble, but...
  • a character with a vicious face = merciless - fewer bluffs, 3 and 4 betting fearlessly with killer hands
  • a female with a "cutsie" protector = timid, tight player
  • a man with a "cutsie" protector = Crazy bluffing player
  • Rocks of any non-crystalline type = tight aggressive
Of course, this is only for initial impressions, and never a substitute for properly reading your opponents.
 
derekdd23 said:
I find card guards annoying too. I never let go of my cards unless its my action and I need two hands to bet. I dont trust people to muck their cards properly, I have seen plenty of card guards fail when a player mucks improperly, holding my cards makes it impossible to fail.
Click to expand...

Card guards do not fail, by definition. That's the whole point of having one. If a player mucks his hand and his cards even so much as touch yours, even just an eighth of an inch overlap, then your hand is dead unless you have a marker on them. However, if you do have a marker, it doesn't matter if someone mucks their cards into yours. Even if their cards mix into yours, you still get to say which cards are yours and which are not if you have a marker on them. Having just your hand/fingers on your cards to protect them is a gray area. It really depends how you're holding them. If you only have a couple fingers on them, and someone mucks into your hand, it's technically a dead hand. Plus, technically, you're not supposed to be holding your cards with your entire hand. It conceals the cards, and they must be fully visible by all players at the table at all times.

Do as you wish, but someday you will wish you heeded my advise if you're playing in Vegas, or any other card room for that matter.

Source: I was a dealer for a few years, a poker room manager for one, and played professionally for over ten years.
 
About 14 or 15 years ago, I was dealing at a card room in WA called "The Grove", and there was a guy that used to play there that EVERYONE hated. He was extremely rude to all the players, he refused to tip any of the dealers, no matter how big the pot size was, and he would constantly check raise the floormen heads-up (not a good idea - I can explain why later if you don't already know). Anyhow, this asshole's name was Frank, and he was one of those notorious players that everyone knows about, even if they've never sat at the table with him. He's just hated that much... One day, I was in the box, and there was a family pot capped out pre flop in a 4-8 LHE game, this was actually pretty common at The Grove - best action card room I've ever seen in almost 20 years of playing. So the pot gets capped, 9 players in pre-flop, and Frank is in early position. The flop is 89Q, and immediately, I notice a shift in his body language, he's interested, and he's trying to act disinterested. Now Frank is an asshole, but he's not a donk. He's a winning player, though not a great one. He flat calls the BB's donk bet, then the action gets raised and reraised behind him, and no one folds. It gets back to him, and he caps it out; something he never does without the nuts - he doesn't even semi-bluff raise. If Frank check raises you, he has the nuts. Everyone at the table is drinking, the game is running pretty slow, and Frank checks out while the action at the table continues (another sign that he has the nuts), and he's looking up at the TV instead of the game. I notice right away, and I'm staring at what is now almost a $300 pot on the flop, and I know it's going to Frank unless someone can put a bad beat on this asshole. He's sitting in the 5 seat, and I notice that not only is he checked out of the hand after capping the flop and tuned into the TV, but his cards are unprotected. I bring the turn card, and it's an airball. The BB donk bets again, and the action is now on Frank. I said "four to call", but I intentionally didn't state his name. I gave him about one more second to respond (far less time than I'd give anyone else), and he's still looking up at the TV. So, I took the moral high ground and grabbed his hand right from under his nose, and mucked it, moving the action to the next player. Action continues, he looks down a few seconds later and says, in a panic, "WHERE'S MY HAND!!!?" I don't think anyone else at the table knew he had the nut straight with JT, but I was certain of it, and I didn't want that pot going to him if I could help it. He called the floor and needless to say, there was nothing he could do. His hand was in the muck, and I was technically right to muck it - though if he weren't the asshole he is, I'd have given anyone else more time. Frank went ballistic! He started cussing me out, cussing out the floorman, and cashed out his chips. He said, "I'm never playing here again!" I had officially slayed the dragon. From that moment on, I was a hero. Players bought me beers every time I was in there to play, literally for months, after they had heard what happened. Plus, I got a $20 tip on that hand (Frank would have stiffed me).

Morale of the story?... Mark your cards
 
Trihonda said:
I have read somewhere that there's a general consensus (from serious players) that people with card guards and bobbles are all donks, and that the pros in Vegas actually look for these when choosing a table to sit at. Well, I might be a donk, but I'm ok if my abilities are underrated by others at the table.

Secondly, I'll tell a story from the first MTTD. Two players in the tourney were involved in a hefty pot, and down to the turn/river, there were a lot of chips in the middle. The dealer accidentally mucked/snagged the presumptive winner's cards, and I was called over to rule. My first question to the guy who lost his cards, "were your cards protected?". His answer was no, easy ruling. @links_slayer was sitting at the table, and could probably correct me if I'm getting the story wrong.
Click to expand...

There is some truth to this, but be careful how you interpret it. Players that have a flock of markers are generally a soft spot, or players that have overly loud markers (like a bobble-head) are usually a soft spot, or players that have a rabbit's foot or any other "lucky charm" are also a soft spot. But otherwise, players that just have a normal/simple marker, don't give anything away about their play. But you want to know what the biggest soft spot is? Players that don't mark their cards at all! If I see a player that doesn't put a marker or chips on his hand, it's a dead giveaway. He's inexperienced, and he's almost certainly going to bleed chips.

Every single pro in the poker world marks their cards. Without exception. There is literally not one single pro that doesn't mark his/her cards. I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to impart some wisdom. Marking your cards is imperative, on so many levels, if your goal is to be a winning player. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being the person who refuses to use one, but you should at least be aware of why they are used, and what insights a strong winning player has about your play if you aren't using one. Some people just play to have fun, not to pay the rent. Nothing wrong with that. But just know that if you aren't marking your cards, you're "that guy".
 
RainmanTrail said:
Card guards do not fail, by definition. That's the whole point of having one. If a player mucks his hand and his cards even so much as touch yours, even just an eighth of an inch overlap, then your hand is dead unless you have a marker on them. However, if you do have a marker, it doesn't matter if someone mucks their cards into yours. Even if their cards mix into yours, you still get to say which cards are yours and which are not if you have a marker on them. Having just your hand/fingers on your cards to protect them is a gray area. It really depends how you're holding them. If you only have a couple fingers on them, and someone mucks into your hand, it's technically a dead hand. Plus, technically, you're not supposed to be holding your cards with your entire hand. It conceals the cards, and they must be fully visible by all players at the table at all times.

Do as you wish, but someday you will wish you heeded my advise if you're playing in Vegas, or any other card room for that matter.

Source: I was a dealer for a few years, a poker room manager for one, and played professionally for over ten years.
Click to expand...

I lived in Vegas for years and have seen cards go flying even when under a card guard. I have only once in over a thousand sessions had an issue holding on to them with either the dealers or floor which was at the Luxor. They told me that I could not touch my cards unless I was looking at them, so i got up and never went back. I always make sure that the front of the cards are showing so that there is no issue. I have even had dealers tell me it was a smart idea to hold on to them the way I do, never once has my hand been declared dead when a player mucked at me. I have see many many pros take the same approach.
 
derekdd23 said:
I lived in Vegas for years and have seen cards go flying even when under a card guard. I have only once in over a thousand sessions had an issue holding on to them with either the dealers or floor which was at the Luxor. They told me that I could not touch my cards unless I was looking at them, so i got up and never went back. I always make sure that the front of the cards are showing so that there is no issue. I have even had dealers tell me it was a smart idea to hold on to them the way I do, never once has my hand been declared dead when a player mucked at me. I have see many many pros take the same approach.
Click to expand...

There are two rule books that are generally considered to be "the rules of poker" - and which almost all card rooms follow. They are the "WSOP's Official Tournament Rules" and "Robert's Rules of Poker", by Robert Ciaffone. They read as follows...



WSOP Rules:

102. Cards and Chipstacks Kept Visible, Countable, and Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups: Participants are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. Clean stacks in multiples of 20 are recommended as a standard. Participants must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times. Floor People will control the number & denomination of chips in play and may color up at their discretion. Discretionary color ups are to be announced. Players with live hands must keep their cards in plain view at all times.

104. Protect Your Hand: participants must protect their own hands at all times. A protected hand is defined as a hand sitting on the table surface with a card cap (see Rule 106) placed on top of the hand. If a dealer or participant kills or fouls an unprotected hand, the participant will have no redress and will not be entitled to his or her money back. If the participant initiated a bet or raise and hasn’t been called, the uncalled bet or raise will be returned to the participant.

106. Foreign Objects: There will be no foreign objects on the table except for a maximum of one card cap (also known as a card protector). Card caps can be no larger than two (2) inches in diameter and no more than one-half (1/2) inch in depth. Participants may not place any food or beverages on the poker table with the exception of one (1) capped bottle of water.

Note that rule 106 is almost never enforced unless the player has an extremely large card cap or several of them.


Robert's Rules of Poker:

2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

17. Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table-level and not past the edge of the table. The cards should not be covered by the hands in a manner to completely conceal them.
 
RainmanTrail said:
About 14 or 15 years ago, I was dealing at a card room in WA called "The Grove", and there was a guy that used to play there that EVERYONE hated. He was extremely rude to all the players, he refused to tip any of the dealers, no matter how big the pot size was, and he would constantly check raise the floormen heads-up (not a good idea - I can explain why later if you don't already know). Anyhow, this asshole's name was Frank, and he was one of those notorious players that everyone knows about, even if they've never sat at the table with him. He's just hated that much... One day, I was in the box, and there was a family pot capped out pre flop in a 4-8 LHE game, this was actually pretty common at The Grove - best action card room I've ever seen in almost 20 years of playing. So the pot gets capped, 9 players in pre-flop, and Frank is in early position. The flop is 89Q, and immediately, I notice a shift in his body language, he's interested, and he's trying to act disinterested. Now Frank is an asshole, but he's not a donk. He's a winning player, though not a great one. He flat calls the BB's donk bet, then the action gets raised and reraised behind him, and no one folds. It gets back to him, and he caps it out; something he never does without the nuts - he doesn't even semi-bluff raise. If Frank check raises you, he has the nuts. Everyone at the table is drinking, the game is running pretty slow, and Frank checks out while the action at the table continues (another sign that he has the nuts), and he's looking up at the TV instead of the game. I notice right away, and I'm staring at what is now almost a $300 pot on the flop, and I know it's going to Frank unless someone can put a bad beat on this asshole. He's sitting in the 5 seat, and I notice that not only is he checked out of the hand after capping the flop and tuned into the TV, but his cards are unprotected. I bring the turn card, and it's an airball. The BB donk bets again, and the action is now on Frank. I said "four to call", but I intentionally didn't state his name. I gave him about one more second to respond (far less time than I'd give anyone else), and he's still looking up at the TV. So, I took the moral high ground and grabbed his hand right from under his nose, and mucked it, moving the action to the next player. Action continues, he looks down a few seconds later and says, in a panic, "WHERE'S MY HAND!!!?" I don't think anyone else at the table knew he had the nut straight with JT, but I was certain of it, and I didn't want that pot going to him if I could help it. He called the floor and needless to say, there was nothing he could do. His hand was in the muck, and I was technically right to muck it - though if he weren't the asshole he is, I'd have given anyone else more time. Frank went ballistic! He started cussing me out, cussing out the floorman, and cashed out his chips. He said, "I'm never playing here again!" I had officially slayed the dragon. From that moment on, I was a hero. Players bought me beers every time I was in there to play, literally for months, after they had heard what happened. Plus, I got a $20 tip on that hand (Frank would have stiffed me).

Morale of the story?... Mark your cards
Click to expand...

I don't know if I should applaud you for A) getting rid of the jerk, or B) disdain you for knowingly mucking a hand because you didn't like the player. You committed theft, and admittedly profited from it ($20). You then boast about your crime on this website. If anything, the morale of the story is to always tip the dealer - because he may be a crook who is going to steal from you.

After a bit of thought, It's definitely not A.
 
RainmanTrail said:
There are two rule books that are generally considered to be "the rules of poker" - and which almost all card rooms follow. They are the "WSOP's Official Tournament Rules" and "Robert's Rules of Poker", by Robert Ciaffone. They read as follows...



WSOP Rules:

102. Cards and Chipstacks Kept Visible, Countable, and Manageable. Discretionary Color-Ups: Participants are entitled to a reasonable estimation of an opponent's chip count; thus chips should be kept in countable stacks. Clean stacks in multiples of 20 are recommended as a standard. Participants must keep their higher denomination chips visible and identifiable at all times. Floor People will control the number & denomination of chips in play and may color up at their discretion. Discretionary color ups are to be announced. Players with live hands must keep their cards in plain view at all times.

104. Protect Your Hand: participants must protect their own hands at all times. A protected hand is defined as a hand sitting on the table surface with a card cap (see Rule 106) placed on top of the hand. If a dealer or participant kills or fouls an unprotected hand, the participant will have no redress and will not be entitled to his or her money back. If the participant initiated a bet or raise and hasn’t been called, the uncalled bet or raise will be returned to the participant.

106. Foreign Objects: There will be no foreign objects on the table except for a maximum of one card cap (also known as a card protector). Card caps can be no larger than two (2) inches in diameter and no more than one-half (1/2) inch in depth. Participants may not place any food or beverages on the poker table with the exception of one (1) capped bottle of water.

Note that rule 106 is almost never enforced unless the player has an extremely large card cap or several of them.


Robert's Rules of Poker:

2. You must protect your own hand at all times. Your cards may be protected with your hands, a chip, or other object placed on top of them. If you fail to protect your hand, you will have no redress if it becomes fouled or the dealer accidentally kills it.

17. Players must keep their cards in full view. This means above table-level and not past the edge of the table. The cards should not be covered by the hands in a manner to completely conceal them.
Click to expand...
RainmanTrail said:
There is some truth to this, but be careful how you interpret it. Players that have a flock of markers are generally a soft spot, or players that have overly loud markers (like a bobble-head) are usually a soft spot, or players that have a rabbit's foot or any other "lucky charm" are also a soft spot. But otherwise, players that just have a normal/simple marker, don't give anything away about their play. But you want to know what the biggest soft spot is? Players that don't mark their cards at all! If I see a player that doesn't put a marker or chips on his hand, it's a dead giveaway. He's inexperienced, and he's almost certainly going to bleed chips.

Every single pro in the poker world marks their cards. Without exception. There is literally not one single pro that doesn't mark his/her cards. I'm not trying to be condescending here, I'm just trying to impart some wisdom. Marking your cards is imperative, on so many levels, if your goal is to be a winning player. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being the person who refuses to use one, but you should at least be aware of why they are used, and what insights a strong winning player has about your play if you aren't using one. Some people just play to have fun, not to pay the rent. Nothing wrong with that. But just know that if you aren't marking your cards, you're "that guy".
Click to expand...



Thanks, we all know rules, but what happens when your cards go flying and are no longer concealed? You can no longer bluff, or even get value from big hands. That is all I am saying.

Bragging about being a dealer and stealing money from a player is just wrong, even if he is a jerk. I hope you are never my dealer, I would have called the floor and got video.

Not all pros use some sort of marker, many do, but definitely not all.

Example after a 5 second search, Ivey and Dwan, who both play in the biggest games in the world and are both recognized as pros not using anything but a hand.

 
Poker Zombie said:
I don't know if I should applaud you for A) getting rid of the jerk, or B) disdain you for knowingly mucking a hand because you didn't like the player. You committed theft, and admittedly profited from it ($20). You then boast about your crime on this website. If anything, the morale of the story is to always tip the dealer - because he may be a crook who is going to steal from you.

After a bit of thought, It's definitely not A.
Click to expand...

I'm torn here... Yup, kinda see where I'd be pissed if I were Frank, and unfair, maybe... However, IF the dealer followed the letter of the law, and mucked his hand, then I'd lean towards more of this being cosmic karma (Frank got what he deserved). I also think it has less to do with the dealers not getting tipped, and more about his negative influence on the entire room/game. I'd say, if you want to act like an a-hole and play cards, karma will bite you!

I'd point out the entire room's elation (over several months) as confirmation that Frank got what he deserved. The dealer really was just looking out for the majority.

I guess it's hard to pass judgment (one way or the other) unless we were there (or with all the facts). If the locals approved (so vehemently), then I'd lean towards being ok with the dealer's actions.

But I also know there's definitely an expectation of impartiality from a dealer. This is a clear failure in that regard.. Thus my being torn.
 

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