Early stages of tourney, SB against 2 players - bet sizing question (1 Viewer)

[ngmcs8203]

Playing 7 handed in the 3rd or 4th round of a satellite.

Blinds were like 100/300/300 at this point and stacks are all estimations. UTG is a friend who has trouble letting go of big pairs and LJ was chip leader who had been playing a good number of suited connectors aggressively and was hitting. At one point mentioned he'd have called a 12BB preflop raise with 10-9 suited after limping in the HJ against an OMC in late position who raised 5BB preflop with queens and he lost. Talked a lot throughout the night about how "he'd have played" someone else's hand.

UTG (20k): Calls 300
LJ (40k): Calls 300
HJ: Calls 300
CO: Calls 300
BTN: Calls 300
SB (Hero - 15k): Calls 150 with
BB: Checks

Pot is 2400. This is the first family pot of the night. I had won or lost only a handful of pots showing mostly big pairs and broadway cards when I would show.

Flop is

Hero: Check
BB: Check
UTG: Bet 1000
LJ: Calls
HJ: Fold
CO: Fold
BTN: Fold
Hero: Raise? Flat?

 

[detroitdad]

Shove, move to the cash game

 

[JMC9389]

I lose way more money playing this stupid shit than I have won even when I hit on flops like this.

I wouldn't get fancy. Raise to 3k, if villain shoves and gets there, GG, rebuy.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I lose way more money playing this stupid shit than I have won even when I hit on flops like this.

I wouldn't get fancy. Raise to 3k, if villain shoves and gets there, GG, rebuy.

Satellite, freezeout.

 

[JMC9389]

Satellite, freezeout.

Then you can play cash as @detroitdad suggests.

 

[chippitydoodah]

I don't know what's more painful...being in the actual hand and getting sucked out on or reading these posts and getting sucked in

 

[ngmcs8203]

I ended up raising to 3.5k. Pot was now at 7.9k.

UTG tanked and was trying to find a way to call. Since he's played a bit with me, I think the check raise was too strong to keep him in, but he started counting out calling chips, paused and pulled them back before mucking.

LJ started counting out calling chips, asking if I had an ace high flush draw or overpair. Now I really wanted him to call with his over card. He folded.

UTG told us he folded KK, which a few hands later would end up being the hand he had when he got knocked out. Not a good day for him to have cowboys.

Against most players a limp early with KK would be a shock. However, I have seen him do it with all big pairs and broadway connectors both suited or not. LJ was probably playing a suited Q, K or A or red suited connectors and something like 22+

As I pulled my chips in the table continued talking about my flush draw or big pair. I said "Wow, I guess I need to play more hands." My 41-year-old OMC table image got me all the way to the final chop. I'll take it.

 

[ngmcs8203]

I feel like if I let had been the initial raiser I was going to get two calls. If I let it check through I would have been sucked out for letting value slip by. Not sure if that’s right but a check raise with two near calls felt like it was an ok decision.

 

[JMC9389]

Someone folded kings on that flop?

 

[ngmcs8203]

Someone folded kings on that flop?

Yup.

 

[chippitydoodah]

Do you believe he had KK in your hand?

 

[ngmcs8203]

Do you believe he had KK in your hand?

Yea. He wouldn’t stop talking about it. I made the mistake of telling him in our last game that he limp called preflop at an alarming rate with big pairs like queens, kings or aces. His face was priceless though. I think it might have been the first time he realized people pay attention.

 

[ekricket]

Playing 7 handed in the 3rd or 4th round of a satellite.

Blinds were like 100/300/300 at this point and stacks are all estimations. UTG is a friend who has trouble letting go of big pairs and LJ was chip leader who had been playing a good number of suited connectors aggressively and was hitting. At one point mentioned he'd have called a 12BB preflop raise with 10-9 suited after limping in the HJ against an OMC in late position who raised 5BB preflop with queens and he lost. Talked a lot throughout the night about how "he'd have played" someone else's hand.

UTG (20k): Calls 300
LJ (40k): Calls 300
HJ: Calls 300
CO: Calls 300
BTN: Calls 300
SB (Hero - 15k): Calls 150 with
BB: Checks

Pot is 2400. This is the first family pot of the night. I had won or lost only a handful of pots showing mostly big pairs and broadway cards when I would show.

Flop is

Hero: Check
BB: Check
UTG: Bet 1000
LJ: Calls
HJ: Fold
CO: Fold
BTN: Fold
Hero: Raise? Flat?

Flip two pair, no made straights or flushes possible, I’d worry about trip tens but you think they would have raised something preflop, so I’d consider just jamming it all in here.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

I have no idea what to do on the flop. I would probably call the flop bet and re evaluate on the turn.

It's pretty much a spot where you'll never know where you are in the hand though, which is why I'm advocating for a fold pre. Yes, I know you're SB and it's only half a BB to call, but this hand plays terribly OOP in a seven handed family pot. What are we hoping for if it's not this flop....336? 245 rainbow? Even if we flop a flush it's possibly not good already and if we get called there are a ton of bad turns/rivers.

 

[Random Phish]

You should be happy with the result. You’re likely ahead on the flop but your hand was very vulnerable. Limped pot so you need to worry about 4-5, 10x that makes a better 2 pair by the river, flush draws, pocket pairs that make a set. There’s no safe cards for you (I guess a 6 or 3 is pretty safe as long as you’re not already up against a set of 10’s)

 

[ngmcs8203]

I guess I should have put it in my OP but I was really looking for bet sizing to get some action.

 

[Random Phish]

If you wanted to get called, make it like 2-2.5k or rip it all-in. The small check raise can get called by flush draws and 10x hands. The all-in looks like a 10x hand wanting protection or flush draw and might get looked up by an overpair.

 

[ngmcs8203]

If you wanted to get called, make it like 2-2.5k or rip it all-in. The small check raise can get called by flush draws and 10x hands. The all-in looks like a 10x hand wanting protection or flush draw and might get looked up by an overpair.

That’s what I was wondering. Not sure which bet option to go with. So not a check raise all in but just a push up front?

 

[Random Phish]

No, still a check raise, just either a small one or all in. You could donk into it, but I don’t know what your donk range into eight players would be.

 

[Random Phish]

You’re better off allowing the preflop raiser to continue, especially since he’s in relatively early position, if he c-bets and someone rips it in behind him, I’m not going to be feeling too good holding bottom 2 with no redraw.

 

[ngmcs8203]

There was no preflop raise.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

You’re better off allowing the preflop raiser to continue, especially since he’s in relatively early position, if he c-bets and someone rips it in behind him, I’m not going to be feeling too good holding bottom 2 with no redraw.

No preflop raise, which is why I'm more behind my original statement than I was when I typed it. This hand is horrible as a flat pre. It should be folded almost always, but a 10x raise or something with all the limpers at least allows us to know where we're at on a board like this.

 

[ngmcs8203]

No preflop raise, which is why I'm more behind my original statement than I was when I typed it. This hand is horrible as a flat pre. It should be folded almost always, but a 10x raise or something with all the limpers at least allows us to know where we're at on a board like this.

Right. Fold pre is how i play it most of the time. I’m just looking for if it is possible to get a call out of UTG and UTG1 limpers on a flop like this.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

Right. Fold pre is how i play it most of the time. I’m just looking for if it is possible to get a call out of UTG and UTG1 limpers on a flop like this.

Yes, especially if you are crushed or flipping.

Normally I would say you would get called by overpairs and such, but this game seems so far out there with a seven way limped pot that I just don't see the point in bloating the pot.

 

[ngmcs8203]

Yes, especially if you are crushed or flipping.

Normally I would say you would get called by overpairs and such, but this game seems so far out there with a seven way limped pot that I just don't see the point in bloating the pot.

Hmmm. It was the first and only one. It was weird and that’s why I came along. I ended up chopping at the end of the tourney but it was the spot I was most interested in learning how to play post flop.

 

[Random Phish]

There was no preflop raise.

Still never donking into 7 or 8 players. Yes, you have two pair but if you get called your best case scenario is to be up against an overpair, but you have no idea which one. Like Mark said, if you get called, you’re likely crushed or flipping at best.

 

[MichaelBubly]

Still never donking into 7 or 8 players. Yes, you have two pair but if you get called your best case scenario is to be up against an overpair, but you have no idea which one. Like Mark said, if you get called, you’re likely crushed or flipping at best.

I think that's why the larger sizing is a better choice. I would probably see a 2x raise here being quite strong into 3-4 players as it really seems like value. A draw is likely to go a bit bigger with a raise when they do bet.

I think bottom two benefits from the added protection of the larger size and can still get called (by non fish) with over pairs.

The fact the guy folded Kings really just means you need to be more aggressive against him as it's super profitable for you to just raise all your draws here and win.

 

[JustinInMN]

No preflop raiser. Why check the flop? I would lead at this one and see if can induce a raise so I can play for stacks. That seems to get more chips in than check raising a single bettor. It's really hard to put anyone on anything better than two pair here without a preflop raise and hero blocks the bottom two sets.

As played though checking the flop I think you sized it right, a straight or flush draw would surely call at your sizing, as well as any single ten. So I don't think you want to go too much much cheaper with those hands being likely villain holdings, I get the disappointment if an overpair really folded here, but I frankly doubt the story with no preflop raise. Really I think if no one was calling for that size, it was hard to get a call at any sizing.

At the end of the day, you won a big pot that was actually worth protecting without a showdown. That's a good result, even if it doesn't feel like max value.