Explain casino KEMs (2 Viewers)

[zzz]

The bowing/warping problem with KEM cards has been discussed to death, apparently with no definitive answer to the problem other than to buy other cards.

So, I am not trying to beat a dead horse here. I just want to understand why KEMs as used at casinos do not seem to have this problem.

I have spent not much time playing poker at a casino (only about 40hr), but 100% of that time has been with KEMs, and I have not noticed them being warped at all.

Possibilities:
1. Casino KEMs really are higher quality stock than what us plebs get to buy.
2. Casinos are doing something to prevent the cards from warping. But if this were the case, I'd hope we'd have discovered it by now.
3. Casino KEMs are the same as retail KEMs, and there is no reliable "weird trick" to keep them from warping, so they just replace the decks whenever they get warped.

I am afraid the answer might be #3. But I have no hard evidence either way. Does anyone?

Finally, and this is a tangent to the above but I just want to throw it in: why are KEM setups still out of stock almost everywhere? (Except for a few no-name vendors who are charging insane markups, plus Kardwell for some reason.)

 

[Machine]

I just want to understand why KEMs as used at casinos do not seem to have this problem.

They do bow, especially if you're casino is trying to squeak out every penny, charge for Hot Coco, put 3 0's on the wheel and have a 25 min on a random Tues night!

 

[Colquhoun]

Or:
4. Casino KEMs warp like consumer KEMs, but casinos aren’t as fussy about the flatness as we are.

I’ve seen plenty of KEMS on WPT and they often have an upward bow to them.

 

[pnwpoker8]

I do happen to have a few setups of casino circle back KEMs, from unused to casino used. Texture wise, they do feel more "glossy" than the consumer Arrow KEMs, and it leads me to believe (1). Though I can confirm they are still prone to bowing. The best mitigation I have read from others is to store the decks upside down with a cutcard + dealer button, under weight, and in mild temperature.

For my tangent: Anyone know where we consumers can still get these circleback setups? Spinetti's had them for a time but no longer carry them. I know they're only sold to casinos, but honestly these are my favorite cards to use despite the warping problems.

 

[kaimat]

I've started storing all of my decks with metal business cards on top. They are the same size as bridge cards and feel much heavier than just a cut card.

https://www.amazon.com/Aluminum-Business-Engraving-Sublimation-Multipurpose/dp/B082VN5Y74?th=1

 

[zzz]

So far it looks like my thought process may be based on a false premise, and that casino KEMs are really just as bowed as all other KEMs and I just didn't notice. Though I still suspect they change the decks out often enough that one is less likely to notice.

The best mitigation I have read from others is to store the decks upside down with a cutcard + dealer button, under weight, and in mild temperature.

I also heard this. I plan to try it next time I can get a setup of bridge standard index at a reasonable price from a reputable vendor.

My first and only KEMs so far I ordered from Kardwell via kem.com. Two setups. I opened them and shuffled them a bit. They smelled strongly of vinegar, which sort of makes sense given what they are made of, but I wasn't expecting it.

I put them back in the box and came back a few days later to find that they were bowed like crazy. I think a single day of unusually cool and dry indoor air did it. I was already a bit annoyed with the smell and the pixelated jokers (never mind that I have no use for jokers). The ease with which they went full Pringles tilted me in the extreme. I threw them in the trash in a rage.

I still want to try them one more time because I like the feel and the aesthetic quite a lot. I might just wait patiently for some casino circle backs to come up again.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

So far it looks like my thought process may be based on a false premise, and that casino KEMs are really just as bowed as all other KEMs and I just didn't notice. Though I still suspect they change the decks out often enough that one is less likely to notice.



I also heard this. I plan to try it next time I can get a setup of bridge standard index at a reasonable price from a reputable vendor.

My first and only KEMs so far I ordered from Kardwell via kem.com. Two setups. I opened them and shuffled them a bit. They smelled strongly of vinegar, which sort of makes sense given what they are made of, but I wasn't expecting it.

I put them back in the box and came back a few days later to find that they were bowed like crazy. I think a single day of unusually cool and dry indoor air did it. I was already a bit annoyed with the smell and the pixelated jokers (never mind that I have no use for jokers). The ease with which they went full Pringles tilted me in the extreme. I threw them in the trash in a rage.

I still want to try them one more time because I like the feel and the aesthetic quite a lot. I might just wait patiently for some casino circle backs to come up again.

Just to add, the bowing is most noticable when held in a full deck; casinos rarely give you the chance to do that, so smaller amounts of bowing will be far less noticable.

 

[allforcharity]

Perhaps Casino KEMs are switched out very often, either end of each shift or every day.

 

[philhut]

I have never read this before but, Could the bowing be a built in feature to indicate the need for replacement to the casino staff? like a wear line for new decks after a period of use or activity indicating replacement.

I inherited some old Kem bridge decks from my grandmother that were 30+ yrs old and honestly they are in perfect shape, new Kem cards bought by me for poker were warped when I opened the box (possibly tight shrink wrap). One setup remains unopened and sealed, was saving for a special occasion but if they are bowed it will be a let down.

 

[davefr]

The bowing/warping problem with KEM cards has been discussed to death, apparently with no definitive answer to the problem other than to buy other cards.

So, I am not trying to beat a dead horse here. I just want to understand why KEMs as used at casinos do not seem to have this problem.

I have spent not much time playing poker at a casino (only about 40hr), but 100% of that time has been with KEMs, and I have not noticed them being warped at all.

Possibilities:
1. Casino KEMs really are higher quality stock than what us plebs get to buy.
2. Casinos are doing something to prevent the cards from warping. But if this were the case, I'd hope we'd have discovered it by now.
3. Casino KEMs are the same as retail KEMs, and there is no reliable "weird trick" to keep them from warping, so they just replace the decks whenever they get warped.

I am afraid the answer might be #3. But I have no hard evidence either way. Does anyone?

Finally, and this is a tangent to the above but I just want to throw it in: why are KEM setups still out of stock almost everywhere? (Except for a few no-name vendors who are charging insane markups, plus Kardwell for some reason.)

IME, most KEM's don't warp and I think Casinos probably change out the cards frequently. In addition, casinos probably have pretty good HVAC systems that keep temp and humidity pretty constant.

 

[zzz]

IME, most KEM's don't warp

Maybe I've been reading too much PCF, but I find it hard to believe this.

 

[davefr]

Maybe I've been reading too much PCF, but I find it hard to believe this.

I have about a half dozen opened decks of KEM and the only one warped was my garage sale deck from 1979. YMMV.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

I have about a half dozen opened decks of KEM and the only one warped was my garage sale deck from 1979. YMMV.

1 warp out of every 6 isn't a fantastic ratio, but a small sample size for sure!

 

[Kaiser444]

KEMs at the casino warp.

KEMs had my favorite feel of any card, but I’ve been looking for alternatives due to overall durability issues recently.

 

[zzz]

KEMs had my favorite feel of any card, but I’ve been looking for alternatives due to overall durability issues recently.

Any issue besides bowing?

I got another couple of KEM decks the other day. One arrived slightly bowed.

I'm now trying the whole "store in the box, upside down, with a cut card and a dealer button on top". I also wrapped two rubber bands tight around the box to compress the lid down more. My understanding is that this won't correct existing bowing but it may prevent further development. I'll report back after a while on whether it has helped.

 

[Kaiser444]

Any issue besides bowing?

I got another couple of KEM decks the other day. One arrived slightly bowed.

I'm now trying the whole "store in the box, upside down, with a cut card and a dealer button on top". I also wrapped two rubber bands tight around the box to compress the lid down more. My understanding is that this won't correct existing bowing but it may prevent further development. I'll report back after a while on whether it has helped.

I was out at sea recently, and we play a lot of cards. The KEMs took the shortest amount of time before the salty air compromised their laminate and started peeling.

Their bowing is actually helpful at sea — all tables have lips for safety, so the flexibility and slight bow allows easier pickup off the table.

 

[Tablemaker]

I've worked in casinos for 20+ years and done inventory on setups and counted stock at multiple places. The cards do get warped at a similar rate but a few things to consider: Home games are generally tougher on the cards, players don't have proper etiquette, bend them way too much whereas in a casino the dealers with keep a close eye on this. Second, home games without dealers don't shuffle properly. This can warp them faster, and lastly, casinos are mandated to rotate cards multiple times a day to prevent collusion. At my last cardroom, we needed to put on new cards every few hours.

 

[JFG]

Casinos don’t care about warping as much as we do. But they do care about the ink wearing off or players marking the deck. This used to be their selling point.

 

[Old State]

As some have said, I see slightly bowed Kems at casinos a lot. Always bowed up though and they are usually visibly well used. I figure this has a lot to do with people bending them to see their hand. Most however are usually pretty flat.

Many here know I love Kem cards and the storage method I’ve talked about a lot keeps them flat. That said, before I came across this, I had and still have a two deck setup from 2003 that never took a bow and I just stored them regular. They were used almost weekly for a year. My hypothesis is that the hand oils and whatnot kind of sealed the acetate so that the cards didn’t absorb much moisture.

But people also seem to ignore the fact that many other cards will bow as well. All acetate cards will and many others. In AC Kems are used almost exclusively for cash but you occasionally see Gemaco Superflex used for tournaments. They often have the exact same bow.

Some slightly bowed Kems from session at Borgata. When I changed tables the decks were totally flat..as I pay attention to this type of stuff

 

[drdr]

I have about a half dozen opened decks of KEM and the only one warped was my garage sale deck from 1979. YMMV.

I've owned mostly KEMs over past 15 years. Probably about 12 decks. Every deck warped except two that are unopened.

 

[surfik]

I dont think that there is a difference in stock material between casino and customer Kems.
Difference might be noticable as casino cards are going stright to the casino/club as customer cards often spend even few years in some shop or warehouse before hitting the felt.

 

[Old State]

I've owned mostly KEMs over past 15 years. Probably about 12 decks. Every deck warped except two that are unopened.

I have currently have 12 individual decks as well. Been storing them upside down with a cut card and later with a a cut card and dealer button on top. All 12 are completely flat. I do this with other acetate cards as well.

The very first deck I bought in 2002 warped severely ….but I had them at a beach house and we were playing on a screened in porch. I had one other single deck (around 2006) I left out of the box after a long night session in an unfinished basement and they took a slight bow. My heavily second deck (2003) always was flat without storing them any special way.

Moved to Copag as the other option at the time. They ended up bleeding colors with high use.

Spend a few years buying every brand made trying to find a card that wouldn’t bow but felt as good as Kem. The latter is impossible to find…so I went back to Kem around 2010 after hearing if the storage technique and have been 100% good.

I dont think that there is a difference in stock material between casino and customer Kems.
Difference might be noticable as casino cards are going stright to the casino/club as customer cards often spend even few years in some shop or warehouse before hitting the felt.

In the early 2000s I swore the Kem cards at the casino were thicker. I actually called Kem and they said they were identical material. So I bought some casino used sets (that came severely warped..I assume from the heat in shipping) and discovered they were indeed the same material.
Also, I will debunk this myth anytime I can…but there is zero difference between pre and post USPC Kems. I own several samples from both eras. It’s an urban legend that simply won’t die.

 

[surfik]

I have currently have 12 individual decks as well. Been storing them upside down with a cut card and later with a a cut card and dealer button on top. All 12 are completely flat. I do this with other acetate cards as well.

The very first deck I bought in 2002 warped severely ….but I had them at a beach house and we were playing on a screened in porch. I had one other single deck (around 2006) I left out of the box after a long night session in an unfinished basement and they took a slight bow. My heavily second deck (2003) always was flat without storing them any special way.

Moved to Copag as the other option at the time. They ended up bleeding colors with high use.

Spend a few years buying every brand made trying to find a card that wouldn’t bow but felt as good as Kem. The latter is impossible to find…so I went back to Kem around 2010 after hearing if the storage technique and have been 100% good.

In the early 2000s I swore the Kem cards at the casino were thicker. I actually called Kem and they said they were identical material. So I bought some casino used sets (that came severely warped..I assume from the heat in shipping) and discovered they were indeed the same material.
Also, I will debunk this myth anytime I can…but there is zero difference between pre and post USPC Kems. I own several samples from both eras. It’s an urban legend that simply won’t die.

There is a difference between pre and post KEM but not in stock. Its graphics and ink that varies

 

[davefr]

Spend a few years buying every brand made trying to find a card that wouldn’t bow but felt as good as Kem.

IMHO Angel's are the closest feel to KEM's and I haven't seen any warpage from them.

 

[drdr]

I have currently have 12 individual decks as well. Been storing them upside down with a cut card and later with a a cut card and dealer button on top. All 12 are completely flat. I do this with other acetate cards as well.

Yup I do this now as per PCF lore. Hasn't stopped them bow but is less severe. Love KEM feel and play but I can no longer tolerate the bowing for the highest price.

 

[Old State]

There is a difference between pre and post KEM but not in stock. Its graphics and ink that varies

Yes, I noticed the red color is different….but I don’t think that started immediately. USPC bought them in 2006. I did notice a slightly rougher texture in my cards dated 2011 and on. But the over all feel is pretty much identical and the USPC cards are no more or less susceptible to bowing.

IMHO Angel's are the closest feel to KEM's and I haven't seen any warpage from them.

Would love to try them. One of the few brands I don’t have. I tried Cartamundi Acetete and fell they were the closest but too smooth in texture. They also took a very very slight bow.

Yup I do this now as per PCF lore. Hasn't stopped them bow but is less severe. Love KEM feel and play but I can no longer tolerate the bowing for the highest price.

The bowing can easily be controlled. My 15 year experiment proves that to me But they are charging way too much for them. I never payed more than $23 for a setup. They used to show up randomly on Amazon discounted and that’s when I bought almost all of them. I got my last two deck set up before Covid for $14!

I assume they price them that high because they know they are the preferred card of almost every major card room and casino in the US and I imagine sales to the public are minuscule in comparison . They are also the OG for plastic cards in general.

 

[DrStrange]

don't casinos change cards out once or twice a day? Maybe more often in some cases.

That isn't long for warpage to happen if the cause is environmental vs use. And I don't change decks every month even if they do get 12 hours of use.

 

[surfik]

Yes, I noticed the red color is different….but I don’t think that started immediately. USPC bought them in 2006. I did notice a slightly rougher texture in my cards dated 2011 and on. But the over all feel is pretty much identical and the USPC cards are no more or less susceptible to bowing.

Would love to try them. One of the few brands I don’t have. I tried Cartamundi Acetete and fell they were the closest but too smooth in texture. They also took a very very slight bow.

The bowing can easily be controlled. My 15 year experiment proves that to me But they are charging way too much for them. I never payed more than $23 for a setup. They used to show up randomly on Amazon discounted and that’s when I bought almost all of them. I got my last two deck set up before Covid for $14!

I assume they price them that high because they know they are the preferred card of almost every major card room and casino in the US and I imagine sales to the public are minuscule in comparison . They are also the OG for plastic cards in general.

Fonts are alsk bit different

 

[surfik]

don't casinos change cards out once or twice a day? Maybe more often in some cases.

That isn't long for warpage to happen if the cause is environmental vs use. And I don't change decks every month even if they do get 12 hours of use.

No casino can afford to change deck of Kem daily

 

[allforcharity]

No casino can afford to change deck of Kem daily

I bet they can, and do.