flushes at 25NL Bovada (1 Viewer)

[boltonguy]

Agree - V can have the nuts here so I'm just flatting.
Can I get better hands to fold? NO
Can I get worse hands to call? Not likely unless V is a fish with ATo

 

[JustinInMN]

Screw all that. I jammed it.






Villain calls with

Oh no. Well his exact holding is interesting because it means he is opening a wider range than I would have assumed pre flop, which makes the case for the call preflop much better. On the other hand, it also means he has far more combos of the nuts at the river than we would have assumed, meaning to justify a call with a q-hi flush, we have to be more sure there is a wide amount of "inferior value" in villain's range. The call versus fold decision goes from a clear call to being actually close. The shove decision goes from a clear no to a never ever ever do that, however.

 

[boltonguy]

Just realized that you had included the hand and blurred it. Wow not expecting V to show up with A5dd here.
I knew there was a possibility that we were beat just not that wide ...

 

[grebe]

Soooooo....

I have been working on getting max value lately and situations like this keep coming up. I have historically been a value bettor, but listening to strategy podcasts lately is getting the best of me. TBH, I dont mind any play I made in this hand except for the jam. I could arguably 3bet pre (still not folding here, except to a 4 bet), maybe lead on the flop, maybe check raise turn.

Fact is, I owned myself here. Definite spew. I never considered him having a better flush, and was only trying to construct a max value situation, which put blinders on that I did not have the nuts....especially with that clean turn and river. Lessons cost money.

 

[grebe]

one more point of weakness: I considered my hand the third nuts. This is absolutely wrong.

Nuts is Adxd, which includes: AK, AJ, A8, A.....
2nd nuts is KdXd....

 

[Eriks]

Still the 3rd nuts; you can’t be beaten by more than one KdXd or one AdXd at the same time. But there are of course several ways for villain to have the second nuts or the nuts.

 

[JustinInMN]

I have historically been a value bettor, but listening to strategy podcasts lately is getting the best of me.

Good value betting is very important to strategy. And I think a lot of players that would otherwise be winners aren't because they don't value bet enough.

But every bet must be backed by a reason to gain something.

On the river it's simply these two reasons and nothing else...
1) Can a lesser hand call? (This is the definition of a "value bet." You stand to gain the value of villain's call.)
2) Can a better hand fold? (This is the definition of a "bluff." You stand to gain a pot that you couldn't win at showdown.)

After you got raised on the river in the pot, the answer to both of these questions was pretty clearly "no."

Now say we were talking about a board with enough higher cards on it where villain could conceivably have a broadway straight, for example. Then that changes the equation on the first question a bit, but you still have to weigh that against the possibility of running into the nuts as well.

Or another example, if there is a double paired board where you have a q hi flush, would it be worth turning your flush into a bluff to make a bigger flush fold for fear of a full house? That might change the equation on the second question.

In either case, use caution and make sure you know your villain. Do not bluff players that call widely, you instead attack them with value bets. You attack the nits with bluffs.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[boltonguy]

I am working to value bet more rivers myself but generally tend to make smaller value bets when checked to IP and betting 1/3 - 2/3 pot instead of checking through. I am blown away at how often I am called by worse, but I generally dont bet too big to narrow V's calling range depending on my hand strength. Bart Hanson says something like "If you arent value owning yourself every now and then, you arent value betting enough."

 

[Chester Copperpot]

It’s not a big thing, but I never post the blinds. I just wait for the orbit to come back around. Don’t want to pay to play out of position, and it gives me a few hands to watch the table, for whatever it is worth.

 

[boltonguy]

I do the same.

 

[grebe]

It’s not a big thing, but I never post the blinds. I just wait for the orbit to come back around. Don’t want to pay to play out of position, and it gives me a few hands to watch the table, for whatever it is worth.

I'm there to play cards and enjoy myself. If posting blinds is -ev, I'll take that hit. If I saw someone wait until bb to start playing anywhere except from early position, I would immediately label them as a nit until I saw otherwise.....especially live.

 

[Chester Copperpot]

I get it is a balance of playing cards to have fun and making +\- EV plays.

I am the opposite - I look at someone posting the blinds as a potential fish, especially if they buy in short.

 

[Legend5555]

When it comes to value betting at these stakes, realize that when people check to you on the river when the obvious draws get there, they rarely have made their hand. So it becomes very easy to just bet strong top pairs or better that aren't the nuts for value. If you get raised, you just fold because people, even decent winning players, basically never check raise bluff the river often enough to be balanced.

Also, since weaker players can't fathom betting just top pair for value on scaryish rivers (especially 3 barrels along the way), they bluff catch more than they should thinking you either have the nuts or nothing.

 

[boltonguy]

When it comes to value betting at these stakes, realize that when people check to you on the river when the obvious draws get there, they rarely have made their hand. So it becomes very easy to just bet strong top pairs or better that aren't the nuts for value. If you get raised, you just fold because people, even decent winning players, basically never check raise bluff the river often enough to be balanced.

Also, since weaker players can't fathom betting just top pair for value on scaryish rivers (especially 3 barrels along the way), they bluff catch more than they should thinking you either have the nuts or nothing.

Yes I have definitely run into a sticky river call with middle pair. As a result I dont tend to bluff rivers with large bets with air (anymore, ouch!).
On one hand, my smaller value bets get called by middle pair; on the other my larger river bluffs with air get called by middle pair.
Moral of the story is "Dont bluff stations!"
My bluffing tends to be done by the river. If theyre still with me I'm blocking, checking or going for value depending on position and hand strength.