Game of Thrones (HBO Series - NO BOOK SPOILERS) (5 Viewers)

[Schmendr1ck]

Too many heroic deaths for my taste.

This is a fantasy TV series. The genre is built upon bigger-than-life heroes (and their bigger-than-life deaths).

And if you're the Night King and the button of doom for the entire white walker army (i.e. you perish they all perish) then why bother being involved in the conflict at all? You have superior numbers and can just overwhelm the living without need for being on the forefront of the battle.

Remember that NK was originally human. My take is that he had an axe to grind and believed himself to be unstoppable, and part of his plan was to take out the Three-Eyed Raven, which I'm assuming only he could do.

Likewise for the human defenders, let's charge our cavalry into the darkness headlong into a superiorly numbered force and throw them away. Then let's keep the bulk of our forces outside the walls and allow the enemy or overwhelm and surround us with their superior numbers.

That's what cavalry would do against a large infantry force with limited missile weapons - they charge through, tear up the infantry, and do it again on the way back. And don't forget that the Dothraki were by far the most fearsome and deadly cavalry known in this world.

Defend from within the castle and atop the castle, setup hinderances outside the walls to slow the enemies advance and make them vulnerable to arrows, rocks, etc. and utilize chokepoints within the castle so that the enemy cannot use their numerical advantage against your forces (i.e. doorways, etc) allowing you to hold them at bay and rotate fresh troops in and exhausted ones out.

Did we watch the same show? They did exactly what you suggest here: defending from the walls after the retreat, placing hedgehogs and other obstacles all over Winterfell to slow the dead down once they got in, etc.

I got the impression that Jon and company had devised the best plan they could given their numbers, resources, and time. If anything about it is not so believable, it's that they had time to make the preparations they did (trenches, thousands of dragonglass weapons and arrows, etc.). I think they failed so badly simply because of the sheer numbers, and the problems of facing a mindless horde: sacrificing themselves to breach the burning trenches, piling up to make it easier to climb the walls a la World War Z, and NK being able to just lift his arms and create a whole new army from your dead comrades.

I'm not saying that the episode was perfect, but I loved it. I may have picked on Anthony's quotes in this post, but I think a lot of you are being overly critical and nitpicky about something that is ultimately a 90 minute distraction from the mundane but real world.

 

[detroitdad]

I guess I'm in the minority. I didn't care for the episode. It was to long. boring. with shitty writing. More than half the episode you couldn't see what was going on. Obviously because the special effects sucked for the most part.

The death scene with the giant could have been awesome if the special effects werent horrible

 

[saleen121212]

I guess I'm in the minority. I didn't care for the episode. It was to long. boring. with shitty writing. More than half the episode you couldn't see what was going on. Obviously because the special effects sucked for the most part.

The death scene with the giant could have been awesome if the special effects werent horrible

You were bored during a 1.5 hour action packed battle?

 

[Perthmike]

You were bored during a 1.5 hour action packed battle?

I certainly like watching a good battle scene, but I find well written dialogue more interesting that action.

Give me "Royale with cheese" over an action scene any day.

 

[detroitdad]

Can't ever compare a book scene vs a tv/movie scene. If it's a decent book then the book will always trounce the video version of it in details.

No ones saying they should have skipped over any name character deaths (definitely could have fit 1-2 more in there by trimming scenes like the crypts). I get the character-driver story perspective but would argue that killing of more name characters would have greatly benefited that perspective:

1) Number of lesser name characters still left is high and they'll will be taking up the finite amount of screen time away from the few "main" name characters whose character story development is a lot more important than say Tourmond's/Grey Worms/Varys'/Davos/Messiandi's etc etc.

You were bored during a 1.5 hour action packed battle?

It was 1 hour of the same action. For most of it the lighting was horrible. My guess is to simply cover up the mostly bad special effects

 

[Perthmike]

I had the night to sleep on it and i feel much better about the episode than I did last night.

I still have issues with their poor battle plans and the impenetrable plot armour worn by main characters, but it was super intense and had some fantastic moments.

Theon went out like such a badass and I love that he finally found redemption.

I can't wait for Cersei to die at the hands of her brother now.

 

[Anthony Martino]

This is a fantasy TV series. The genre is built upon bigger-than-life heroes (and their bigger-than-life deaths).

Ned Stark didn't die heroically. Nor did those at the Red Wedding. Nor did the Prince of Dorne. They all died horrible deaths. That is what I've come to expect from this series

Remember that NK was originally human. My take is that he had an axe to grind and believed himself to be unstoppable, and part of his plan was to take out the Three-Eyed Raven, which I'm assuming only he could do.

That's quite the assumption. Bran has done nothing but be vague and creepy. Don't see how that makes him only vulnerable to Voldemort-face

That's what cavalry would do against a large infantry force with limited missile weapons - they charge through, tear up the infantry, and do it again on the way back. And don't forget that the Dothraki were by far the most fearsome and deadly cavalry known in this world.

Being fearsome is useless against a foe that doesn't experience fear

Cavalry, historically, doesn't charge into massed lines of infantry head-on. They are used as screening forces to hide troop movements, scouts to gather intel, flanking or rear attacks due to mobility and to mob up a retreating enemy

Did we watch the same show? They did exactly what you suggest here: defending from the walls after the retreat, placing hedgehogs and other obstacles all over Winterfell to slow the dead down once they got in, etc.

They shouldn't have exposed their smaller forc3 outside the walls. In doing so their numbers were reduced to ruin, and they were unable to defend the walls because all they had up there were their "hero" characters

They did little to utilize chokepoints to rain down concentrated fire on bottlenecked wights, and nobody used large rocks on the wights scaling the walls to beat them back

 

[wonderpuddle]

I wish they could have done something interesting with the Night King, but at this point the showrunners have demonstrated they can’t write the fantasy stuff as well, especially now that they don’t have book material.

I thought the episode last night was pretty decent, but I think the writers missed out on an opportunity to end the episode with something great. They still could have had Arya be the hero, but they could have added a nice, gut-wrenching twist. Arya could have gotten to Bran right before the night king, hopeless and facing imminent loss. Bran could have calmly looked at her and told her he knows what needs to be done. Then cut to the night king approaching Bran, confident that he is about to kill him. As he gets close, Bran suddenly jumps out of his chair and lunges for the night king, stabbing him the same way Arya did last night. The king shatters, the dead all crumble, and then Bran removes his face to reveal that he was actually Arya, who had to kill her brother in order to wear his face and surprise the night king and win the war.

Better ending in my book.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

No one will convince me that was a good battle plan or use of artillery/Calvary.... ever.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Ned Stark didn't die heroically. Nor did those at the Red Wedding. Nor did the Prince of Dorne. They all died horrible deaths. That is what I've come to expect from this series

Sure, and that's a good part of what makes GoT interesting - they've never been afraid to kill off important characters, often in pretty crappy ways. I didn't expect nearly as much plot armor as we saw last night, and I expected Brienne and a couple others to die too. Some have argued that the show is subverting our expectations by allowing those to live who we thought were going to die, but I think it's more that nobody would watch the second half of the season if you kill off too many fan favorites in episode 3.

That's quite the assumption. Bran has done nothing but be vague and creepy. Don't see how that makes him only vulnerable to Voldemort-face

Point conceded. NK planned to kill Bran, and seemingly wanted to do it by his own hand, but yeah, there's no evidence that nobody else could.

Being fearsome is useless against a foe that doesn't experience fear

Being deadly, on the other hand, doesn't require your victims to be afraid of you.

Cavalry, historically, doesn't charge into massed lines of infantry head-on. They are used as screening forces to hide troop movements, scouts to gather intel, flanking or rear attacks due to mobility and to mob up a retreating enemy

Heavy cavalry were often used as shock troops and to crush less disciplined infantry forces (although I'll grant that they were much less effective against competent well-disciplined infantry without their own supporting infantry).

But we're talking about what cavalry do on TV and in the movies - they charge into the foot soldiers and wreak havoc. I felt like the instant slaughter of the Dothraki was another trope turned on its head ("I have the high ground!"), as well as a way to convey to the viewer how big and unstoppable the wight army was. It was a plot device that wasn't intended to be historically accurate.

They shouldn't have exposed their smaller forc3 outside the walls. In doing so their numbers were reduced to ruin, and they were unable to defend the walls because all they had up there were their "hero" characters

They did little to utilize chokepoints to rain down concentrated fire on bottlenecked wights, and nobody used large rocks on the wights scaling the walls to beat them back

The episode didn't really explain their battle plan, but I interpreted it as:
- Use the Dothraki and Unsullied outside the walls to significantly reduce the numbers of the wight army.
- Retreat into Winterfell and defend against a much smaller force.

If they had just put all of their forces inside the walls, what would have happened when the full force of the wight army hit the walls? How effective would an army that big be inside the confines of Winterfell once the wights (inevitably) got inside?

I'd've liked to see rocks, burning oil/pitch or something else dumped down the outside of the walls to defend them from the climbers - that seems like an oversight.

Also, you misspelled "force." HAH, YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS.

 

[Perthmike]

Sure, and that's a good part of what makes GoT interesting - they've never been afraid to kill off important characters, often in pretty crappy ways. I didn't expect nearly as much plot armor as we saw last night, and I expected Brienne and a couple others to die too. Some have argued that the show is subverting our expectations by allowing those to live who we thought were going to die, but I think it's more that nobody would watch the second half of the season if you kill off too many fan favorites in episode 3.



Point conceded. NK planned to kill Bran, and seemingly wanted to do it by his own hand, but yeah, there's no evidence that nobody else could.



Being deadly, on the other hand, doesn't require your victims to be afraid of you.



Heavy cavalry were often used as shock troops and to crush less disciplined infantry forces (although I'll grant that they were much less effective against competent well-disciplined infantry without their own supporting infantry).

But we're talking about what cavalry do on TV and in the movies - they charge into the foot soldiers and wreak havoc. I felt like the instant slaughter of the Dothraki was another trope turned on its head ("I have the high ground!"), as well as a way to convey to the viewer how big and unstoppable the wight army was. It was a plot device that wasn't intended to be historically accurate.



The episode didn't really explain their battle plan, but I interpreted it as:
- Use the Dothraki and Unsullied outside the walls to significantly reduce the numbers of the wight army.
- Retreat into Winterfell and defend against a much smaller force.

If they had just put all of their forces inside the walls, what would have happened when the full force of the wight army hit the walls? How effective would an army that big be inside the confines of Winterfell once the wights (inevitably) got inside?

I'd've liked to see rocks, burning oil/pitch or something else dumped down the outside of the walls to defend them from the climbers - that seems like an oversight.

Also, you misspelled "force." HAH, YOUR ARGUMENT SUCKS.

But using the Dothraki and unsullied outside of the walls just means they are feeding the undead army. The night king will literally reanimate them and use them in his own army.

There should have been so much fire used outside. They just needed to swarm the ground with pits and spikes and any hurdles possible to cram the undead army in and set them alight in the biggest bonfire of all time.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Some have argued that the show is subverting our expectations by allowing those to live who we thought were going to die, but I think it's more that nobody would watch the second half of the season if you kill off too many fan favorites in episode 3.

That’s got to consist of like the 3% of watchers who just started watching it live this season.

Heavy cavalry were often used as shock troops and to crush less disciplined infantry forces (although I'll grant that they were much less effective against competent well-disciplined infantry without their own supporting infantry).

But we're talking about what cavalry do on TV and in the movies - they charge into the foot soldiers and wreak havoc. I felt like the instant slaughter of the Dothraki was another trope turned on its head ("I have the high ground!"), as well as a way to convey to the viewer how big and unstoppable the wight army was. It was a plot device that wasn't intended to be historically accurate.

The episode didn't really explain their battle plan, but I interpreted it as:
- Use the Dothraki and Unsullied outside the walls to significantly reduce the numbers of the wight army.
- Retreat into Winterfell and defend against a much smaller force.

If they had just put all of their forces inside the walls, what would have happened when the full force of the wight army hit the walls? How effective would an army that big be inside the confines of Winterfell once the wights (inevitably) got inside?

It’s hard to have a discussion if it’s subjective as to when they’re using a bad idea as a plot device and when it’s just actually a bad idea. (The show runners even said they purposely made the Dothraki fail and fail the way they did to give a forbidding feeling to the battle.) The battle plan should either be viewed entirely through the lens of reality or not at all when talking about the soundness of their strategy.

 

[johnjohn]

opinons vary.

 

[ekricket]

They lured him to the Godswood by telling him that’s where they were holding the Darth Maul lookalike contest...

Reminds me of life with the girlfriend

View attachment 282249

It’s Heat Miser vs Snow Miser

 

[Anthony Martino]

Heavy cavalry were often used as shock troops and to crush less disciplined infantry forces (although I'll grant that they were much less effective against competent well-disciplined infantry without their own supporting infantry).

The Dothraki aren't a heavy cavalry force though. They're an extremely mobile, unarmored cavalry, similar to the Mongols. They aren't carrying lances, but use curved blades (which aren't good at cutting through armor or bone). Their advantage could be to approach, pepper their enemy with arrows then fall back with superior speed, to draw enemies forward and disrupt battle lines, or wear down a foes morale (not applicable in this case)

The episode didn't really explain their battle plan, but I interpreted it as:
- Use the Dothraki and Unsullied outside the walls to significantly reduce the numbers of the wight army.
- Retreat into Winterfell and defend against a much smaller force.

As has already been stated, any living that fall run the risk of adding to the undead army against them. Facing a larger force, their advantage is to nullify the numerical advantage their foe has. They do this by forcing their foe to fight them in a smaller, confined area, rather than out in the open.

Ancient generals would often park their armies between two cliff walls so that their own forces couldn't retreat (forcing their men to fight with more resolve) while also causing their opponent to only be able to bring to bear a similar number of men in battle at one time. If your army has better tactics or equipment, your numerically superior opponent cannot use their numbers against you due to being forced into the chokepoint between the cliffs.

Likewise, keep your foes forced to fight through doorways, gates, etc. and they can't bring their numbers to bear. The advantage the undead have in numbers and ferocity would fall against a disciplined force holding a tight pathway with superior tactics.

If they had just put all of their forces inside the walls, what would have happened when the full force of the wight army hit the walls? How effective would an army that big be inside the confines of Winterfell once the wights (inevitably) got inside?

They'd have enough troops to man the walls and any gates. This would allow them to keep it 1v1 against the undead, rather than allowing themselves to be flanked. They would be able to kill off a LOT more wights while at the same time losing less of their own forces.

The biggest danger is having their own forces bunched up if the undead dragon comes a blasting, but they have the dragon advantage in the battle and should be able to keep it occupied and off their troops.

At the end of the day, we both agree on one thing. I was able to shut my brain off and enjoy the non-stop action. But I still feel the showrunners are shit and don't have a clue how to write. They butchered the Dorne plot line, and have continually dragged this series into the muck since they no longer have the books to base it off of.

 

[stocky]

I thought it was a great episode overall. Some things were a bit disappointing but overall great.

Dothraki are horseman, that’s the best way they fight so obviously they will be the calvary. I don’t see a future for them in Westeros either so I think it was an awesome scence to kill them off completely. The fires slowly dying was awesome and just set up this feeling of wtf is going to happen now. You started thinking this is the start of a big long fight, to thinking everyone’s just about to get slaughtered.

The unsullied are also great formation fighters. So that’s where I’d expect them to be also. Not inside the castle waiting.

I feel like however the scene was shot you’d have complainers. If they just fortified the castle people will say it’s boring. Or that the white walkers would just pass it by. Etc. they chose an open battle and for the most part I think it worked.

Would’ve liked to see some unexpected death at least. Like Jamie just getting unceremoniously cut down on the front line and no one really able to do anything. All the deaths did seem a bit to heroic. Would’ve like to see them defending the wall a bit longer also. Would’ve made the fighting inside the castle seem less cliche where all the heroes are surrounded until the end.

Bran, I have a theory that Bran was warging to lead people where he needed them but we don’t see it. Example is Arya. No one knows Wintetfell better than Bran because he climbed every inch, I think he knew Arya was the best to lead to him to have a chance at the NK. Arya is skilled brave and small and knows winterfell well also so has the skills to sneak pass and attack.

He may of also been leading people like Jorah to Dany.

The show as a whole as been steering away from the books since season 3 I think. I think the writers have moved from the NK as the enemy to Cersei as the enemy. I would think in a better story line the battle for the 7 kingdoms would be fought and unite everyone to fight the NK. I guess until the books are written we won’t know.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

The Dothraki aren't a heavy cavalry force though. They're an extremely mobile, unarmored cavalry, similar to the Mongols. They aren't carrying lances, but use curved blades (which aren't good at cutting through armor or bone). Their advantage could be to approach, pepper their enemy with arrows then fall back with superior speed, to draw enemies forward and disrupt battle lines, or wear down a foes morale (not applicable in this case)



As has already been stated, any living that fall run the risk of adding to the undead army against them. Facing a larger force, their advantage is to nullify the numerical advantage their foe has. They do this by forcing their foe to fight them in a smaller, confined area, rather than out in the open.

Ancient generals would often park their armies between two cliff walls so that their own forces couldn't retreat (forcing their men to fight with more resolve) while also causing their opponent to only be able to bring to bear a similar number of men in battle at one time. If your army has better tactics or equipment, your numerically superior opponent cannot use their numbers against you due to being forced into the chokepoint between the cliffs.

Likewise, keep your foes forced to fight through doorways, gates, etc. and they can't bring their numbers to bear. The advantage the undead have in numbers and ferocity would fall against a disciplined force holding a tight pathway with superior tactics.





They'd have enough troops to man the walls and any gates. This would allow them to keep it 1v1 against the undead, rather than allowing themselves to be flanked. They would be able to kill off a LOT more wights while at the same time losing less of their own forces.

The biggest danger is having their own forces bunched up if the undead dragon comes a blasting, but they have the dragon advantage in the battle and should be able to keep it occupied and off their troops.

At the end of the day, we both agree on one thing. I was able to shut my brain off and enjoy the non-stop action. But I still feel the showrunners are shit and don't have a clue how to write. They butchered the Dorne plot line, and have continually dragged this series into the muck since they no longer have the books to base it off of.

I disagree, but at least they're trying, unlike Martin who will probably never finish the books.

 

[Perthmike]

Agree with everything @Anthony Martino says

Cue chants of USA USA

 

[Perthmike]

No more picking apart from me though. For all its flaws i was super engrossed the whole way through and felt drained for the whole rest of the evening from the intensity of it all.

I'm such a long term fantasy nerd, that I can't help but get protective over the genre and the GoT series source material.

Ive also studied a lot of medieval type history and played a lot of total war type strategy games so it's hard not to pick holes in the battle plan.

Either way bring on the next episodes. Fuck you Cersei

 

[Anthony Martino]

I feel like Oprah was there shouting "YOU GET A HEROIC DEATH! AND YOU GET A HEROIC DEATH!"

 

[stocky]

I feel like Oprah was there shouting "YOU GET A HEROIC DEATH! AND YOU GET A HEROIC DEATH!"

I feel like the majority of the audience expect these type of deaths these days.

 

[BonScot]

It’s a sad day when this guy is a better villain...

 

[Anthony Martino]

I feel like the majority of the audience expect these type of deaths these days.

This is where the showrunners diverged from the source material significantly

The history of GOT from the begginning involved senseless deaths. Now they cram 20 fricken heroic ones into this episode because the series is ending. It flys against the flavor of the show that made it so popular

 

[BonScot]

This is where the showrunners diverged from the source material significantly

The history of GOT from the begginning involved senseless deaths. Now they cram 20 fricken heroic ones into this episode because the series is ending. It flys against the flavor of the show that made it so popular

Yeah they lost their way last series and don’t look like finding their way back this one so far...

 

[Perthmike]

Yeah they lost their way last series and don’t look like finding their way back this one so far...

Nah episodes 1 & 2 were nearly perfect. I still enjoyed 3, despite its issues. Season 7 was way worse. It was mostly just plain stupid

 

[BonScot]

Nah episodes 1 & 2 were nearly perfect. I still enjoyed 3, despite its issues. Season 7 was way worse. It was mostly just plain stupid

Series 7 was a rush job. The first two episodes of series 8 were the opposite. As for the last episode I started playing about with the brightness and contrast controls to try and see what was happening

 

[saleen121212]

Nah episodes 1 & 2 were nearly perfect. I still enjoyed 3, despite its issues. Season 7 was way worse. It was mostly just plain stupid

Episode 1 & 2 were boring to me and pissed me off. With 6 episodes I was furious they wasted 33.3 percent of the season on setup/filler crap. There is way to much to wrap up to spend a whole episode watching characters drink and cry about how they all might die soon. I have a feeling episode 4 and 6 will be the same. 4 will wrap up the battle and prepare for fighting Cersei, 5 will be the battle with Cersei and 6 will wrap up the show, hopefully answering any of the 500,000 questions we still have.

 

[bentax1978]

Nah episodes 1 & 2 were nearly perfect. I still enjoyed 3, despite its issues. Season 7 was way worse. It was mostly just plain stupid

100% this.

Chip murderers stick together and clearly share the same opinions on GoT.

 

[Perthmike]

Episode 1 & 2 were boring to me and pissed me off. With 6 episodes I was furious they wasted 33.3 percent of the season on setup/filler crap. There is way to much to wrap up to spend a whole episode watching characters drink and cry about how they all might die soon. I have a feeling episode 4 and 6 will be the same. 4 will wrap up the battle and prepare for fighting Cersei, 5 will be the battle with Cersei and 6 will wrap up the show, hopefully answering any of the 500,000 questions we still have.

I guess I'm just a book nerd and I like the filler. I understand your point though and I think many would agree with you. I think the shows gotten so big now it's reached too many different demographics and it's impossible to please everyone.

 

[BonScot]

Episode 1 & 2 were boring to me and pissed me off. With 6 episodes I was furious they wasted 33.3 percent of the season on setup/filler crap. There is way to much to wrap up to spend a whole episode watching characters drink and cry about how they all might die soon. I have a feeling episode 4 and 6 will be the same. 4 will wrap up the battle and prepare for fighting Cersei, 5 will be the battle with Cersei and 6 will wrap up the show, hopefully answering any of the 500,000 questions we still have.

Agree with this 100%. It’s as if you read my mind...