Got my Majestics and Pharaohs from Apache (1 Viewer)

[RainmanTrail]

So I got my chips from Apache yesterday. I was all excited at first. I opened several sleeves of the Pharaohs, and started wiping off the chalk/dust and they are pretty awesome. Very happy with this set. There are a few with defective labels, but I'm planning to order some backup sleeves, and can replace those when they arrive.

However, I opened the first sleeve of my Majestics, and the labels are sticking up above the lip on 15 of the 25 chips! Also, I don't think this is easily reconcilable. The margin for error on the diameter of the label and the diameter of the depression is zero on these chips. It'd be pretty tough to fix them. The labels just seem like they are ever so slightly too big for the holes they belong in. They do fit perfectly for the ones that are in right, but 15 out of 25 protruding...? That's pretty bad. Anyone else experience this? I'm trying to decide what to do. I know I could relabel them, but I don't have the time necessary to do that. I was able to get a few of them to go back into the impressions with a fine tipped tool, but clearly this isn't the solution. Should I return them? Exchange them? How well do the custom labels work on these? I'm new to the custom label game. Also, 30c per chip seems pretty steep to relabel chips that I paid 35c for...

 

[stocky]

Pics? Hard to picture what you are explaining.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Apache got back to me within 10 minutes of emailing them and said I could exchange them for more Pharaohs if I'd like. So their customer support seems like it's pretty good. That's good news

I really like the Majestics otherwise though, so still not sure what to do here.

Will try to post some pics so you can see. It's really subtle though. Not sure how well I can get it to show up in pictures... Gonna open another sleeve too of a different color in case I just happened to open a bad sleeve.

 

[Apache]

I have sold over 100,000 of these chips and no one mentioned or have i seen any problems like you are mentioning. For this to happen to 15 of the 25 chips you opened i think you might be expecting a perfectly flat inlay like a paulson chip.

 

[Meddler2]

........

 

[Meddler2]

Is this producing any ill-effect to the performance of the chip? i.e. spinners or severe stack wobble?

 

[RainmanTrail]

Well, I do have OCD, so I'm sure that I'm pickier than most. The issue I'm talking about is subtle for sure. I think if they had just trimmed the labels by an extra 0.01 inches, it would have solved the problem. I opened a sleeve of the oranges, and they have it as well. The labels protrude above the top of the chip on a lot of these. The entire label should be below the top of the chip, inside its impression. The Pharaohs don't have this issue. But about half of the Majestics I'm opening have it. Trying to show some pics so you can see what I mean, but it's difficult to see it. It's much easier to feel it by hand. There's a lip that you can feel from the label sticking up. It's only a matter of time until these catch on something. It will probably result in labels popping off during play. I think they're otherwise great chips though.

Here are some pics. The orange is a little more exaggerated than most. I tried to get one that would show up in the pictures. The green one is a bit more typical. But you can feel it in about half the chips.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Here are the sets in sleeves still. They look good in the set.

 

[Meddler2]

I'm sure Josh will make it right.

 

[stocky]

Well they are applied by people making less in a year than you do in a month

 

[RainmanTrail]

Well they are applied by people making less in a year than you do in a month

But it's the same manufacturer as the Pharaohs, and they don't have this issue. I think it's a design flaw. It'd be really difficult to get these all perfect by hand. No way in hell could I do it.

 

[stocky]

But it's the same manufacturer as the Pharaohs, and they don't have this issue. I think it's a design flaw. It'd be really difficult to get these all perfect by hand. No way in hell could I do it.

Are you sure it's the same manufacturer? Iirc there are a few companies that make these types of chips.

 

[Thomacetti]

I have sold over 100,000 of these chips and no one mentioned or have i seen any problems like you are mentioning. For this to happen to 15 of the 25 chips you opened i think you might be expecting a perfectly flat inlay like a paulson chip.

Correct me if wrong but I do remember issues regarding non-consistent chip diameters within the set of denoms ?
Not label related but Rainman's pics do show an issue...

For chips advertised as best in the market after real clay, it's obvious buyers will have high expectations.

I also wonder how these beveled edge chips shuffle...

Well they are applied by people making less in a year than you do in a month

How is this relevant if buying from retailer ?

 

[BPTDirector]

It looks like the label is applied off center causing your problem. I have heard of many china clay chips of different brands and manufacturers over the years where buyers did the painstaking task of peeling of and reapplying the labels correctly and that solving the problem. The labels are the exact size of the recess, so any off centered labels will have this issue.

Good Luck - I've known Pharoahs CC chips to have had this problem reported in past shipments as well, but they must have fixed it over time.

Also, I highly doubt it's the same manufacturer, just because they came from the same retailer doesn't mean they were made at the same factory.

 

[MD Mike]

I have sold over 100,000 of these chips and no one mentioned or have i seen any problems like you are mentioning. For this to happen to 15 of the 25 chips you opened i think you might be expecting a perfectly flat inlay like a paulson chip.

I did see this issue on some of the Majestics however it was minor to me. I can tell you after labeling 200 Majestics that you have to be slow and careful to line it up JUST RIGHT to get it perfectly aligned.

The people in China who labeled them probably didn't care as much as you do and wanted to produce them quickly. But honestly, I do know what @RainmanTrail is talking about. Just wasn't that big a deal to me.

I believe that @Gear mentioned something about this too in another thread.

 

[Gear]

True, I did. It's my opinion that the factory labels are slightly larger than they should be, i.e. what BPTDirector said above -- they are exactly the same size as the recess, which means they have to be perfectly positioned. I also believe that not all of the recess areas are identical in size, which means the labels will fit really nicely in some and not so well in others. (I'm thinking about the slight variation in the diameter of the chips, which would pretty much have to produce a corresponding slight variation of the diameter of the recess areas.)

I've definitely noticed a slight bulging at the edges of some of the factory-applied labels, but I think it's acceptable in most cases (especially since there isn't much you can do to fix it.)

 

[RainmanTrail]

True, I did. It's my opinion that the factory labels are slightly larger than they should be, i.e. what BPTDirector said above -- they are exactly the same size as the recess, which means they have to be perfectly positioned. I also believe that not all of the recess areas are identical in size, which means the labels will fit really nicely in some and not so well in others. (I'm thinking about the slight variation in the diameter of the chips, which would pretty much have to produce a corresponding slight variation of the diameter of the recess areas.)

I've definitely noticed a slight bulging at the edges of some of the factory-applied labels, but I think it's acceptable in most cases (especially since there isn't much you can do to fix it.)

Ya, this is exactly what I was thinking as well. I think if they trimmed the labels just a hair smaller, then it wouldn't be an issue. Some of them are aligned on one side, and still pop up above the recess on the other. This is going to result in labels coming off during play/handling. The chips are otherwise great though.

 

[Ronoh]

I relabeled 850 of them and know exactly what he is talking about. Extraordinarily frustrating getting the job done, I can't imagine the factory putting that much effort in. 100% agree the labels should have been slightly smaller.

 

[BPTDirector]

I know OP will probably not agree but the price on these chips is well below what people pay for 'compression' clay chips and as such we are talking labels vs. Inlays and reduced overall quality.

If inlays are off center it doesn't affect stacking because they are pressed into the chip, not affixed onto the chip after it is made. The price of the chip as compared to CPC compression molded chips should point out to you that there may be these types of issues in them that you have to accept given low quality controls over in China.

Saying you expect perfection at .30 per chip means you were being a little unrealistic as to what the current price trends are in the clay chip arena.

For instance, I simply cannot stand the silver tint on CC labels, others have no problem but my tastes could not get used to it. Not can I take the smell of every CC chip I've ever purchased. So I pay upwards of $1.50 to $2.00 or more per chip to not have those issues.

The chips themselves always look great, but the smell and label quality have always turned me away.

Your Milage May Vary of course but don't expect supreme quality at 30 cents a chip.

 

[BGinGA]

It looks like the label is applied off center causing your problem. I have heard of many china clay chips of different brands and manufacturers over the years where buyers did the painstaking task of peeling of and reapplying the labels correctly and that solving the problem. The labels are the exact size of the recess, so any off centered labels will have this issue.

Good Luck - I've known Pharoahs CC chips to have had this problem reported in past shipments as well, but they must have fixed it over time.

^^ Exactly this. And no china clay chip or manufacturer is immune.

A couple of my Majestic chips have off-centered labels (just a sample set), but a fairly large number of my 1000+-Pharaoh's Club chips did.... as do about 15% of my Championship Poker Series (CPS) 1600-chip set. It's a rather simple procedure to use an X-acto knife point to lift and re-position the label if it becomes too bothersome or adversely affects stacking.

Always amazes me when people expect perfection from a chip that costs well under 10¢ each to produce.

 

[72o]

I agree that you shouldn't expect perfection but I would expect the chips to function properly. If this latest issue effects stacking and/or spinners, then it should be at least noted before purchasing because this issue may effect the playability/function of chips.

I mean at least dice chips function as advertised.

 

[Gear]

a chip that costs well under 10¢ each to produce.

That reminds me - I wanted to respond to this:

Also, 30c per chip seems pretty steep to relabel chips that I paid 35c for...

I completely understand this POV, and the costs do seem skewed when compared directly. However, it's not so much that labels are expensive, but rather that these chips are inexpensive.

It's also apples-and-oranges in terms of scale: There were hundreds of thousands of these chips made, but if you get custom labels, you'll probably want maybe hundreds OR thousands at most. So the economies of scale come into play in a big way here. The key word is custom

 

[BGinGA]

If this latest issue effects stacking and/or spinners

I think the point is that it's not a 'latest issue' -- this has been just one of many 'issues' that pretty much affect all china clay chips produced: due to low production costs, mass production, cheap labor, cheaper materials, and pretty much non-existent quality control. The low price of china clay chips is low due to all of those factors.

When you start changing any of those variables, all of a sudden you no longer have a bargain-basement chip. These chips are great for the price, but they cannot compete with more expensive chips when it comes to quality, nor should they be expected to.

 

[BGinGA]

Maybe somebody should create a sticky that outlines all of the 'issues' that come with purchasing china clay chips. Might help to correctly set buyer expectations when purchasing.

 

[Thomacetti]

I think the point is that it's not a 'latest issue' -- this has been just one of many 'issues' that pretty much affect all china clay chips produced: due to low production costs, mass production, cheap labor, cheaper materials, and pretty much non-existent quality control. The low price of china clay chips is low due to all of those factors.

When you start changing any of those variables, all of a sudden you no longer have a bargain-basement chip. These chips are great for the price, but they cannot compete with more expensive chips when it comes to quality, nor should they be expected to.

Yeah, for us chipes xberts...it's obvious.
These chips are advertised like this:

"With the help from our friends at Chiptalk & the Poker Chip Forum we designed what we feel is the best clay chip available next to Paulson chips. Several months went into choosing exciting colors, an elegant design, and a classy mold. The chips are solid clay and weigh around 10 grams. This is the staff choice as the best all around chip we sell! "

When a non-chipper buys a set and after a few games has trouble with the labels, stacking, ... should he have know that these are only 10-cent china produced chips, that come with (minor) defaults ? Based on the add, I would think not...

Update: sorry Dave, missed that last post

 

[Wils]

Saying, "well they're cheap what do you expect?" doesn't - or shouldnt wash. If they might require relabelling because the labels only just fit, this should be made pretty clear before you buy. And yeah they might be cheap to you, to others they may represent a significant investment.

Don't forget, not everyone who buys them will be coming from a "high quality chip" background, or indeed have any prior knowledge of the poker chip market, so I daresay some will think, "my money was 100% good, I expect these chips to be too.". Otherwise where do you draw the line? Who determines what is acceptable and what is not?

" hey! You sold me a brand new Ford, and the brakes don't work."
"Yeah but - thing is, you really shoulda bought a better car. Nothing I can do about it now
but put your money in the bank."

(That last bit isn't a reference to Apache, who I've had a few dealings with, without issue, just using an extreme example to illustrate the point).

 

[BGinGA]

At least they're not advertised as "real 11.5 gram casino weight" .... anybody that believes in chip truth in advertising (or any advertising, for that matter) is an idiot.

 

[BGinGA]

Don't forget, not everyone who buys them will be coming from a "high quality chip" background, or indeed have any prior knowledge of the poker chip market, so I daresay some will think, "my money was 100% good, I expect these chips to be too.". Otherwise where do you draw the line? Who determines what is acceptable and what is not?

I think your "Ford with failing brakes" example is highly flawed.

A more applicable example might be some one who purchases a low-end Hyundai model, but expecting the fit/finish of a Mercedes, the quality materials of a Bentley, or the performance of a Porsche. A little market research would have easily disclosed that the buyer expectations are unrealistically high. Do all buyers (of cars or chips) conduct research before buying? No, but it doesn't mean that they were 'ripped off' when buying a cheaper model and expecting quality/performance that typically costs much more.

 

[Thomacetti]

At least they're not advertised as "real 11.5 gram casino weight" .... anybody that believes in chip truth in advertising (or any advertising, for that matter) is an idiot.

I never saw Jim or ASM/CPC post any BS like that on their website.
And if it's common practice in the chip business, then forums like these are even more important to say what is what.

 

[BGinGA]

I never saw Jim or CPC post any BS like that on their website.
And if it's common practice in the chip business, then forums like these are even more important to say what is what.

Agreed. And the fact is, forums like these do (and have) addressed the quality issues affecting china clay chips, many times over.