Got my Majestics and Pharaohs from Apache (1 Viewer)

[CdnBeerLover]

I think the point is that it's not a 'latest issue' -- this has been just one of many 'issues' that pretty much affect all china clay chips produced: due to low production costs, mass production, cheap labor, cheaper materials, and pretty much non-existent quality control. The low price of china clay chips is low due to all of those factors.

When you start changing any of those variables, all of a sudden you no longer have a bargain-basement chip. These chips are great for the price, but they cannot compete with more expensive chips when it comes to quality, nor should they be expected to.

Maybe, but high-end chips aren't exactly flawless, are they? How many references to egg-shaped inlays from BCC are there? Or spinners for the suits mold from Paulson? The "baking" threads to flatten spinners weren't for china clays. Paulson's have a higher price because they are Paulsons. As far as I can tell, you are simply paying for the name.

Based on what I've read over the past 3-4 years since I first started looking at chips, I don't believe that the higher prices paid for the high end chips necessarily equate to better quality control, at least not for all manufacturers. CPC has a great track record, and from all appearances have excellent quality control. Not every high end chip manufacturer can (or could) say that.

 

[BPTDirector]

I think more attention should be paid to the label vs inlay issue especially for new folks to the chipping world.

 

[12thMan]

If the labels being too big or off center doesn't affect playability or stacking then I would wholeheartedly agree with you @BGinGA , even if it means having to pop a few back on that my come lose during play, your comparison makes sense. However, if the labels are indeed sticking up above the rim of the chips and creating spinners or wobbly stacks then I feel like the comparison between Hyundai and Mercedes is moot, because even if you buy a Hyundai you are going to take your car back to the dealer for warranty work if a door doesn't close properly or the lights don't work.

Oh, and since I know what a huge fan of them you are BG I just want to point out none of the labels stick up over the edge of the most bestest china clays I have, the Mighty Milanos!!!!

 

[BGinGA]

high-end chips aren't exactly flawless, are they? How many references to egg-shaped inlays from BCC are there? Or spinners for the suits mold from Paulson?

And BCC was rightfully crucified for their lack of quality workmanship and quality control, given the relatively high cost of the chips. The warping of hot-stamped chips on the card pips mold was also identified as a flaw, although unfortunately one that could not be avoided.

Paulson's have a higher price because they are Paulsons. As far as I can tell, you are simply paying for the name.

If you truly believe this, I can't help you. But many many more will disagree with you than will agree.

 

[BGinGA]

However, if the labels are indeed sticking up above the rim of the chips and creating spinners or wobbly stacks then I feel like the comparison between Hyundai and Mercedes is moot, because even if you buy a Hyundai you are going to take your car back to the dealer for warranty work if a door doesn't close properly or the lights don't work.

Okay, at the risk of opening a completely different can of worms......

If a car door doesn't close properly or the lights don't work, those are non-functioning items. If the door trim is slightly off-line, or the trim piece around the headlight isn't exactly centered, then those are cosmetic issues (relating to quality design/workmanship and possibly quality control), and do not affect the function of the item.

There are some folks (I will abstain, however) that emphatically feel that 'spinners' and 'wobbly stacks' do not affect the function of poker chips -- they work just fine as game currency, regardless of whether or not they spin or stack.

 

[Wils]

I think your "Ford with failing brakes" example is highly flawed.

A more applicable example might be some one who purchases a low-end Hyundai model, but expecting the fit/finish of a Mercedes, the quality materials of a Bentley, or the performance of a Porsche.

I don't think expecting correctly fitted labels equates to an unrealistic expectation of "top end" luxury.

To me at least (and this is regardless of how much something costs) it's an entirely realistic expectation of "fit for purpose" - nothing more, nothing less.

 

[BGinGA]

I don't think expecting correctly fitted labels equates to an unrealistic expectation of "top end" luxury.

To me at least (and this is regardless of how much something costs) it's an entirely realistic expectation of "fit for purpose" - nothing more, nothing less.

Seriously? So you go to the dollar store and buy a $1 screwdriver, and the tip of the cheaply made steel chips after a few uses, or maybe the handle comes loose. Hey, it works, but it is a far cry from a quality tool --- you get what you pay for, I fail to see how that is so hard to understand. You want quality, you go to a tool store and buy an upscale machined/hardened $4 screwdriver, if it breaks they will replace if for life (although it's unlikely to break, because it's built better in the first place, hence the higher price).

No different with chips. Inexpensive chips have inherent flaws and drawbacks, that's why they are inexpensive. Same as with any product that has a wide variety of offerings price- and quality-wise.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

If you truly believe this, I can't help you. But many many more will disagree with you than will agree.

Compared to china clays, I agree with you. They are better. Compared to CPC chips, though, they aren't, at least based on the samples I have for both.

 

[12thMan]

Okay, at the risk of opening a completely different can of worms......

If a car door doesn't close properly or the lights don't work, those are non-functioning items. If the door trim is slightly off-line, or the trim piece around the headlight isn't exactly centered, then those are cosmetic issues (relating to quality design/workmanship and possibly quality control), and do not affect the function of the item.

There are some folks (I will abstain, however) that emphatically feel that 'spinners' and 'wobbly stacks' do not affect the function of poker chips -- they work just fine as game currency, regardless of whether or not they spin or stack.

And I guess that's the rub: Does a spinner or wobbly stack constitute not doing it's job. If you fall on the side of "spinners are unacceptable" then I think the correct analogy would be a piece of lose trim that somehow prevents the door from closing without a rattle or something like that. Yes, it's a cosmetic issue at heart but it's affecting "workability" of a function. However, if spinners and unstable stacks are secondary to a poker chips true job, which is to be a unit of betting in a game, then I think it is just a piece of lose trim and you get what you get.


Yeah, we could veer to all sorts of different places with this analogy, but it's all probably a waste of time because Rainman is going to get hooked on Paulsons soon enough and never look back at China Clays.

 

[Wils]

Seriously? So you go to the dollar store and buy a $1 screwdriver, and the tip of the cheaply made steel chips after a few uses, or maybe the handle comes loose.

Yes. Seriously. And that attitude seems to work a lot better than "hey ho this is crap but I didn't pay top dollar so... Hey ho."

Besides, your argument seems to suggest that any chips cheaper than Paulsons are cheap.

I do understand where you're coming from, truly, and I agree to an extent, but I think the dollar store analogy is off - these arent dollar store chips we're talking about, and they're not advertised as such.

Anyway gotta take the cat to the vet. Have a great new year everyone if I don't make it back in time.

 

[BPTDirector]

I for one do not think Paulsons are the end all to beat all, but you can not deny they are the standard by which all other chips made today are judged.

Iconic sets not Paulson -

MAPES
GCOP

And there are many others.

 

[BGinGA]

your argument seems to suggest that any chips cheaper than Paulsons are cheap.

Funny, considering that I never mentioned Paulson chips in this thread at all. Not once. So exactly how I suggested such a thing ^^ is beyond me.

But to BPT's point, it was just assumed that Paulson was the quality standard by which all others are judged. You made that assumption, not me.

 

[BPTDirector]

Agreeing with BG - I only stated compression clay and inlays vs injectopression CC label chips but even when people talk Iconic sets like MAPES, most will say something like 'even better than Paulson'... Or 'feels like Paulson'...

Since it was stated OP would eventually land on Paulsons I wanted to enter other Quality chips into the discussion.

FWIW my smallest set is a Paulson starburst set, the only Paulson set I have. I have three other sets, ASM, Chipco, and BCC and love them all.

 

[Wils]

Took the cat to the vet. She made a mistake, gave the wrong kind of injection and ended up killing our pet.

Still, she wasn't the most expensive one available so I can't complain, can I? (Had to say that, it made me chuckle... Stupid cat).

PS the cat has been given the ok really.

PPS I know you haven't mentioned the P word, but others have and they're widely held as the chip equivalent to the Mercedes and Bentleys you referred to earlier. I think we just have different expectations, nothing wrong with that. Nothing to see here.

 

[Meddler2]

The cost of the chip is irrelevant especially since there's no disclaimer on the GB thread or on apache's site that suggests the Majestics or any other of the China clays offered are subject to ANY degree of defect.
The asm/cpc H-mold occasionally suffers from the same issue in that there is no recess area and if the sticker/inlay/label does not fit nor is the care taken to ensure that it does, or if insufficient glue was used, the result is a chip that is defective causing air pockets, or labels falling off, and spinners. Those chips cost almost 4x that of cc and it falls on the manufacturer or retailer to make it right however frustrating that might be....imo obviously.

 

[stocky]

The cost of the chip is irrelevant especially since there's no disclaimer on the GB thread or on apache's site that suggests the Majestics or any other of the China clays offered are subject to ANY degree of defect.

Aren't we all a bit smarter than that though? To think these will be anywhere near perfect is a misconception that I haven't seen stated at anytime by Apache. We know they are cheap, it has been stated 1000 times about the different issues associated with CCs.

Obvious answer. Buy dice chips, they are the only chips that will come close to the expectations in this thread.

 

[Ronoh]

I doubt I will ever understand why BG gets such a touchy "deal with it" attitude about these things. It's a chipping website... CCs do fall under that category, right? If you added up all the chips of all the members here I would have to guess the number of CCs owned is right up there with any other company.

Of the 850 chips I labeled, I struggled heavily with at least half. Of the ones I struggled with I got exactly zero of them to "pop"... I would guess 85% of the troublesome chips ended up good enough by violently squeezing in the opposite direction and 15% were given up on (label on the rim as OP says).

Is this something that happens with CCs? Probably, I can only assume it is. But I can't see it happening to this extent on a regular basis or anyone who has labeled a decent sized set of CCs would never relabel anything... ever again.

Worst case scenario, maybe this will be looked in to and steps taken to make a better product in the future. Is there anything wrong with that? I find the DEAL WITH IT attitude fairly ignorant.

 

[stocky]

Worst case scenario, maybe this will be looked in to and steps taken to make a better product in the future. Is there anything wrong with that? I find the DEAL WITH IT attitude fairly ignorant.

I cant find anyone saying "deal with it"

What I can see is an argument that no one buying CC chips should expect perfection. Joe worked as closely as possible with the manufacturer of the CPS chips and there were still issues. Are we going to expect Josh or Joe to travel to China and watch over their shoulders?

 

[Ronoh]

I cant find anyone saying "deal with it"

What I can see is an argument that no one buying CC chips should expect perfection. Joe worked as closely as possible with the manufacturer of the CPS chips and there were still issues. Are we going to expect Josh or Joe to travel to China and watch over their shoulders?

Every one of his CC posts reads as "What did you expect? Deal with it" heheheheh

Yeah, I've seen the word "perfection" used in all the CC threads as well, really don't think anyone is expecting perfection. It's pretty silly to think things like different thicknesses, different diameters and labels that just don't fit are not going to end up being mentioned... and bringing them up is not a demand for perfection.

 

[stocky]

Every one of his CC posts reads as "What did you expect? Deal with it" heheheheh

Yeah, I've seen the word "perfection" used in all the CC threads as well, really don't think anyone is expecting perfection. It's pretty silly to think things like different thicknesses, different diameters and labels that just don't fit are not going to end up being mentioned... and bringing them up is not a demand for perfection.

I guess I read it differently to you. To me it reads as "know what you're buying into" the first thing mentioned to any new member is buy samples.

Also IMO there is no issue with members pointing out any defects. But thinking the issues are not exceptable for the price is a bit delusional.

 

[Meddler2]

The label should only be within the recessed area. Plain and simple. Sure a few here and there that aren't is no big deal but 60% is too high and borderline becoming the new norm.

Those that are expressing the notion it's no big deal etc. ask yourself this question: Would you have bought these chips if it was a certainty that 20-40% would contain imperfect label placement affectting performance?

Would it be possible for resaler to contract with say Gearx to reproduce the Majestic label but slightly smaller in diameter OR if it's just a few chips, simply replace them. Maybe someone should start a thread to see how widespread this issue is. Is it just 1-2 orders or does every order contain enough to be an issue?

 

[RainmanTrail]

That reminds me - I wanted to respond to this:



I completely understand this POV, and the costs do seem skewed when compared directly. However, it's not so much that labels are expensive, but rather that these chips are inexpensive.

It's also apples-and-oranges in terms of scale: There were hundreds of thousands of these chips made, but if you get custom labels, you'll probably want maybe hundreds OR thousands at most. So the economies of scale come into play in a big way here. The key word is custom

Ya, I totally understand. I didn't mean that the price was unfair. But it does make the cost of a set of custom CPCs seem a bit less expensive, and the value of a set of Pharaoh's that much more attractive.

 

[Meddler2]

Aren't we all a bit smarter than that though? To think these will be anywhere near perfect is a misconception that I haven't seen stated at anytime by Apache. We know they are cheap, it has been stated 1000 times about the different issues associated with CCs.

Obvious answer. Buy dice chips, they are the only chips that will come close to the expectations in this thread.

I don't think that is an assumption a retailer should make.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Is it just 1-2 orders or does every order contain enough to be an issue?

I believe it's all of them. This is what he emailed me this morning after I inquired:

First thing I did this morning was to go and looks at these chips. All of them are just like you are saying. It is off by such a small amount that I have never noticed it and no one else has either.

The chips stack well and there are no spinners. Something like this might bother some people but it is something most people will never notice or care about. If it is a very big problem for you than you can return them. I still think they are the best overall chip we sell.

So it appears as though it's a consistent issue. Perhaps for some, this isn't a concern. A few members here had mentioned they had trouble with the labels as well, but they spent some time one-by-one getting them to work. How the chips turned out after, I'm not sure. However, I work full time and am also in grad school, so I don't really have the time to deal with over 1000 labels one at a time. I will say, however, that this is something people certainly *will* notice in due time. There's just no way in hell these labels don't pop off during play if the sticker is above the recess. The first time the label catches on another chip, it's coming off. Then what? Label sticks to the felt, you pick it up, it's now dirty, you reapply it, and suddenly that chip forever has a label that enjoys popping off. This is my primary concern. I also don't think others have mentioned this because it's Christmas time, and I'd imagine the overwhelming majority of the 100k chips he's sold went to people as Christmas gifts. So these sets probably haven't been examined yet, and even if they had, how many people that receive a set of chips as a gift are going to complain?

That said, and to be fair, I'm pretty OCD so it may be completely fine for others. The chips still stack, and otherwise seem quite nice to me. If I had the time to relabel them all by hand, I might be satisfied with them. But as they currently sit, I'm disappointed.

At least he is allowing me to return them though. So thank you Josh. I guess I'll be sending them back.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I don't expect perfection. I am fine with slight variations in chip weight, diameters, thicknesses, chips of different denominations being different from those of other denominations, edge spot failures, and the occasional fucked up label. These issues wouldn't bother me when I'm paying bargain prices. However, basic competency should be expected at any price. At what point does the "you should have known better" crowd begin to admit that label size matters? Surely if the labels were 3" in diameter, they would say "that's unacceptable". I imagine they would also say it's unacceptable if the labels were a full 39mm. I also imagine they would say it's unacceptable if none of the labels fit in the recess (though BGinGA may still say "you get what you pay for"). I'm ok if, like my Pharaohs, about one chip per sleeve has a defective label (and yes, they are the same manufacturer per Josh from Apache). However, when over half of the labels don't fit the recess, that falls into my "unacceptable" bucket. Chip labels fitting their recess is a basic competency, it is not asking for perfection or anything close to it. This issue could have been avoided simply by making slightly smaller labels. The feedback will probably make its way back to the manufacturer, and they'll address it in future runs, and then these chips will be fantastic for the price! However, as they currently stand, the true price of these chips is about 66 cents after you pay Gear Labels to fix the problem. But you'd get a nice set of custom china clays at that price, so it's still an option. There were several exchanges back and forth between the manufacturer and Apache. How they missed it during this QCing process is beyond me, but Josh said he didn't realize it until I pointed it out to him and he went back and checked them this morning. For me, this was a pretty big QC miss. I noticed it right away. For others, they apparently don't care about it.

Again, I don't expect perfection, but I do expect that the overwhelming majority of my labels fit inside the recesses. That's basic competency, not perfection.

 

[BPTDirector]

I totally understand your frustration. And I never once said it was no big deal, I did say however that while .30 a chip seems stiff for some people, that it is not in comparison with chips that are actually considered casino quality. I do think if you expected casino quality that you may have over estimated what kind of chip .30 can buy in today's current market.

Marketing is marketing and vendors are always trying to cast their product in the best light possible, however thinking these chips were of the same quality as those Josh has on his site for much more each may have been wishful thinking.

Josh is indeed a very stand up customer service guy. Sorry for your problems and realize that China Clay chips are not quite casino quality however are miles above dice or any other plastic slugged chip.

And yes labels that don't fit the recess is an error in manufacturing Josh wishes wouldn't have happened

Enjoy your Pharoahs -

BPT

 

[BGinGA]

^^ Pretty much every word BPT said above applies to me, too.

Fwiw, I think you got lucky with your Pharaoh's Club chips. Mine were pretty much the exact same as all other china clays I've purchased, including the Majestics.

However, having personally dealt with them directly on very similar chip orders, I am of the firm opinion that your expectation of changing how the Chinese conduct business or their concern regarding quality vs profits is vastly optimistic and more than a bit naive.

Maybe I do have a slightly different perspective than you (and others). I've dealt with them before, am aware of what they will promise, know what they will actually deliver, and can tell you exactly what your feedback will get you.

 

[RainmanTrail]

I totally understand your frustration. And I never once said it was no big deal, I did say however that while .30 a chip seems stiff for some people, that it is not in comparison with chips that are actually considered casino quality. I do think if you expected casino quality that you may have over estimated what kind of chip .30 can buy in today's current market.

Marketing is marketing and vendors are always trying to cast their product in the best light possible, however thinking these chips were of the same quality as those Josh has on his site for much more each may have been wishful thinking.

Josh is indeed a very stand up customer service guy. Sorry for your problems and realize that China Clay chips are not quite casino quality however are miles above dice or any other plastic slugged chip.

And yes labels that don't fit the recess is an error in manufacturing Josh wishes wouldn't have happened

Enjoy your Pharoahs -

BPT

Ya, and just to be clear, I'm not frustrated at all. I don't feel like I was cheated or anything like that. I knew they'd be a gamble to some extent. I've played with the Pharaohs before and knew what they were like. I like the Pharaohs. And when their site said the Majestics were better than the Pharaohs, I thought I'd be happy with both sets. But any time you buy from China, there's a risk involved, and I was willing to take that risk. But these ones just didn't work out for me, so I'll just exchange them for more Pharaohs.

I think I'll probably just give in and buy a nice set of customs from CPC. My problem though, is that I'm extremely picky about my label's graphics. I'm gonna need to put in some time to get the graphics how I want them. That or ask one of my graphic design buddies for a favor I like graphics to be simple, clean, and elegant. My favorite chip is the Bicycle's baby blue and white $1 chips with the cursive 'BC' on the label. Simple, clean, and elegant.

I just wish I could order some Bud Jones chips. I prefer those over Paulsons. I don't think I've ever seen TRKs in person, but those seem like they'd be pretty stellar chips too.

 

[manamongkids]

There are some verrrrry talented designers in this community who you can commission to help with your design

 

[RainmanTrail]

However, having personally dealt with them directly on very similar chip orders, I am of the firm opinion that your expectation of changing how the Chinese conduct business or their concern regarding quality vs profits is vastly optimistic and more than a bit naive.

Maybe I do have a slightly different perspective than you (and others). I've dealt with them before, am aware of what they will promise, know what they will actually deliver, and can tell you exactly what your feedback will get you.

Ya, you might very well be right here. I don't know the chip market well enough to stand behind my predictions. I just know economics and general market strategies. That's a big part of what I do for a living as a data scientist. I build predictive econometric pricing models all the time. But as any mathematician would tell you, we can all learn a lot from experts in the field.