Home game chips: Why denominate at all? (3 Viewers)

[Saoliver]

My CPC set does not have denominations and it hasn't been an issue in STTs. In MTTs there are more people who get confused. I use standard colors which helps a little.

The main reason I decided against denominations when I did my set was to have cash/tournament flexibility. I now understand the security risk that can create and only use the non-denominational set for tournaments. If you have separate sets already that is less of an issue.

All future sets I get will have denominations.

I am in the same boat.

 

[JustinInMN]

Two sister casinos near me, Rhythm City in Bettendorf, IA, and Riverside in Riverside, IA, both have non-denominated tourney chips, in non standard colors, no less. IIRC, green 25, blue 100, pink 500, and maybe orange 1000? PITA!

I have also played in tournaments at Riverside, and I think you are right about the colors. They at least put the values on the tournament clock if I remember right.

 

[Beakertwang]

I am in the same boat.

I have also played in tournaments at Riverside, and I think you are right about the colors. They at least put the values on the tournament clock if I remember right.

It’s weird they don’t have denoms, since they are labeled chips. There’s got to be some reason, but I can’t think of one.

 

[SeanGecko]

“Do you like denominations on your chips?”
I’ve put on over 6,000 labels in my time over 3 sets.

We got all sorts of people coming from different home games and casinos. We got a dude who is a damn good little tourney player at the casino and he had got confused when the blue chip went from a dollar on the spirit mold/super diamond set to 25c on my 8v set.

Got to agree too. “It’s on the chip.” Is one of my favorite things.

Having denomination makes it more flexible for my semi custom sets.

Denominations forever

 

[Psypher1000]

But why do you like them?

From an objective standpoint, I play with some folks who have a hard time remembering what color is what denomination unless the demons are printed on there. The rest is just subjective/opinion.

 

[SeanGecko]

From an objective standpoint, I play with some folks who have a hard time remembering what color is what denomination unless the demons are printed on there. The rest is just subjective/opinion.

Yeah what they said.

 

[saskbull]

This only applies to dice chips.

...except greens, those are $10

 

[pltrgyst]

Most home poker games seek to replicate the casino environment, and denominated chips are always part of that environment.

 

[Beakertwang]

...except greens, those are $10

Umm...greens are nickels until 10:30 or so, when we raise the stakes from 5¢/10¢ to 25¢/50¢. Then they become $10's.

 

[Gobbs]

I guess my first answer is, why do you wear a suit to a wedding?

Sure, you can wear a nice pair of khakis and nice shirt and that gets the job done just like chips with no denominations. Nobody will look at you too funny, but you aren’t screaming that it’s something special, either.

Sure, you could wear jeans and a t-shirt if that’s all you have to wear, but just like dice chips, people will frown. Maybe it’s better than not showing up/playing, maybe it’s not.

However, a suit, just like nice chips with denominations, says it’s special. It gives the feel of caring and being important. It’s not something you just threw together.

My second answer is similar to what @Beakertwang said. If your players only play in one game, it’s not that bad, but if they play in other games, the other chips they play with may have different colors. That could lead to mistakes; not necessarily confusion, but just thoughtless mistakes. Denominations and strong labels would help to prevent that.

 

[Old State]

...and one should always wear a suit to a wedding....

 

[allforcharity]

...and one should always wear a suit to a wedding....

And not just your birthday suit, unless you have a particularly interesting themed wedding....

 

[DJ_Fett]

I prefer denom, but would be fine with non-denom.

I’ll end this debate though - if your defense of non-denom is the versatility, then you are essentially saying you don’t need more chip sets, correct? And if that’s the case you may wear out your welcome here....

 

[JustinInMN]

Found the betazed.

And not just your birthday suit, unless you have a particularly interesting themed wedding....

 

[Taghkanic]

I guess my first answer is, why do you wear a suit to a wedding?

And my reply to that is: I refuse to go to weddings. Been boycotting for the past 10 years. The reason? The previous four (lavish) weddings I attended all ended in divorce within 18 months, one of them within 6 months. And I didn’t get a refund on the fancy blender/picture frame/linen set/whatevers that I gave each couple. Not doing it anymore.

So, bad analogy, for me at least.

Similarly, I just don’t feel the need at all for chip denominations in a private game—and I avoid playing in a private game with anyone who needs to be reminded constantly of them, at least after the first couple orbits. Especially in my own house.

This seem a bit like a child being taught to put on their own shoes, then needing permanent labels on the toes for Left and Right for the rest of their life. Or keeping training wheels on your bike into adulthood.

But actually I’d like to play with such people... because I can’t imagine that if they are looking at a five-card board and facing a big bet from me, that they will remember what order the cards came out in, or how I behaved in a similar situation just a few hands ago, or calculating how big my bet is in relation to the pot and to their remaining stack, or any of the countless other (far more complex) things one needs to remember at a poker table besides chip colors. Instead, they’ll be thinking “Is this a $25 chip or a $5 chip? HMMMM.”

As for casinos: Since absolutely anyone can sit down to play, and there are legalities they have to address, it is understood why they have denoms. An invitation-only game for people who have been playing for years together? Not so much.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. I suspect that there is a certain amount of self-fulfilling prophecy in people’s experiences.

If the chips aren’t denominated, players are forced to memorize their values—and they do. Sink or swim.

If they are denominated, no one actually has to learn them (since the values are, after all, “on the chip”). So, some of them never bother.

 

[Taghkanic]

Two sister casinos near me, Rhythm City in Bettendorf, IA, and Riverside in Riverside, IA, both have non-denominated tourney chips, in non standard colors, no less. IIRC, green 25, blue 100, pink 500, and maybe orange 1000? PITA!

PITA... But really, how many hands into the tourney do you get before you know exactly what each chip is worth, without having to think about it at all? You're no dummy, so I bet the answer is, like, two at most.

 

[Beakertwang]

PITA... But really, how many hands into the tourney do you get before you know exactly what each chip is worth, without having to think about it at all? You're no dummy, so I bet the answer is, like, two at most.

Sure, but I still like my chips denominated, both at casinos and home games.

 

[Lemonzest]

my friends are dumber than yours

After 3 or 4 drinks no one would know what is what.

 

[SeanGecko]

And my reply to that is: I refuse to go to weddings. Been boycotting for the past 10 years. The reason? The previous four (lavish) weddings I attended all ended in divorce within 18 months, one of them within 6 months. And I didn’t get a refund on the fancy blender/picture frame/linen set/whatevers that I gave each couple. Not doing it anymore.

So, bad analogy, for me at least.

Similarly, I just don’t feel the need at all for chip denominations in a private game—and I avoid playing in a private game with anyone who needs to be reminded constantly of them, at least after the first couple orbits. Especially in my own house.

This seem a bit like a child being taught to put on their own shoes, then needing permanent labels on the toes for Left and Right for the rest of their life. Or keeping training wheels on your bike into adulthood.

But actually I’d like to play with such people... because I can’t imagine that if they are looking at a five-card board and facing a big bet from me, that they will remember what order the cards came out in, or how I behaved in a similar situation just a few hands ago, or calculating how big my bet is in relation to the pot and to their remaining stack, or any of the countless other (far more complex) things one needs to remember at a poker table besides chip colors. Instead, they’ll be thinking “Is this a $25 chip or a $5 chip? HMMMM.”

As for casinos: Since absolutely anyone can sit down to play, and there are legalities they have to address, it is understood why they have denoms. An invitation-only game for people who have been playing for years together? Not so much.

Yeesh

 

[Gobbs]

And my reply to that is: I refuse to go to weddings.

...but what did you wear to those last weddings before you boycotted them?

Similarly, I just don’t feel the need at all for chip denominations in a private game—and I avoid playing in a private game with anyone who needs to be reminded constantly of them, at least after the first couple orbits. Especially in my own house.

This seem a bit like a child being taught to put on their own shoes, then needing permanent labels on the toes for Left and Right for the rest of their life. Or keeping training wheels on your bike into adulthood.

But actually I’d like to play with such people... because I can’t imagine that if they are looking at a five-card board and facing a big bet from me, that they will remember what order the cards came out in, or how I behaved in a similar situation just a few hands ago, or calculating how big my bet is in relation to the pot and to their remaining stack, or any of the countless other (far more complex) things one needs to remember at a poker table besides chip colors. Instead, they’ll be thinking “Is this a $25 chip or a $5 chip? HMMMM.”

On the plus side, you answered your own question as to why denominations are necessary. They are there for you; so you can play with people like that without getting frustrated.

I do have to say, it’s not like putting labels on your shoes. For people who play in multiple games, it could be more like putting your shoes on right all your life and then suddenly needing to remember to put them on the other feet. Sure, it’s a simple thing, but if you are concentrating on something important, like bet-sizing, reading people, etc., you may revert to the old way in the heat of the moment.

I guess, to me, the right question isn’t, “Are they necessary?” The better question is, “What do they hurt?”

 

[Ken]

We started playing with non-denominated chips bought at the Gambler's General Store. They were cheap, plastic "mermaid" chips. After a few years I made a custom set with no denominations. Then, many years later I made a new custom set and put the denominations on ONE side so I could have a second design on the non-denominated side. The FIRST game with the new chips one regular player who was playing in our group before the first set was made told me he couldn't tell the green (25) from the black (100) as he was color blind even though green and black has been 25 and 100 in both of the previous two sets. I pointed out the denominations on one side AND the different edge spots. Another player admitted that they also couldn't tell the difference easily but they had already noticed the edge spot difference and was using that.

The colors were not that different from the old set but the old green had a generally lighter appearance from the new green.

My next custom set <dreammode> will likely have the same design on both sides with larger denomination numbers. </dreammode> Our general playing group isn't getting younger so we can use all the help we can get.

The non-denominated chips did help us earlier as tourney limits and starting stacks have significantly changed. We used to start tourneys with 1/2 blinds but now all poker rooms start at 25/50 or 50/100. So we could just call the previous blue $1 chips some other high denomination and start with bigger stacks and bigger blinds.

 

[Taghkanic]

For people who play in multiple games, it could be more like putting your shoes on right all your life and then suddenly needing to remember to put them on the other feet.

I play in multiple games on a semi-regular basis, in addition to my own home game. These include three social hall tournaments, and two other private games. Plus casinos, and random other underground games which crop up.

Almost all of these use undenominated dice or “suits” chips. None of them have the identical color schemes.

And almost all of these feature players less sophisticated/experienced than my home game.

Yet they are surviving with undenominated chips.

I still think that internalizing the value of chips by color is by far the most basic thing a new poker player needs to memorize, after the ranks of hands. If you are having to read the chips for values every hand, you are in big trouble.

I guess, to me, the right question isn’t, “Are they necessary?” The better question is, “What do they hurt?”

They clutter up the label/inlay design, and they make chips less flexible (whether augmenting your set or switching up stakes).

Consider, for example, the number of THCs I’ve passed on that I would otherwise buy, but they have a specific denomination on them which clashes with my existing set.

Or the example of a new colorblind player joining my game, and me needing to change up one of the chip colors right then and there.

 

[Taghkanic]

I’d add: There are situations where having the chip denomination printed on it is no help—for example, if a player in the 2 seat pushes in a raise of multiple chips in one stack, with a different denomination on top than others in the stack, and you’re in the 8 seat, and can’t read even the top chip...

In that situation, are you really going to look through your own chips to remember what each color denominates, and then compute how big the villain’s raise is? You can... If you really want to waste your time and focus on raw chip counting rather than other calculations and observations.

I try to learn the colors in each new game I am in on the first orbit, so that assessing stacks and pots becomes automatic. If my lips are moving and I’m counting on my fingers just to figure out how big a raise is in relation to the pot or my stack, I’ve already lost.

 

[1A25R]

Some of the players participating at my tournaments also plays at other home games where the reds worth 500 but at another place 1000. At some places the 100 are black, at another place are blue.
So I decided to go for chips with denominations, easy for everyone, specially for elders.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yet they are surviving with undenominated chips.

Nobody is saying games can't survive with undenominated chips. Heck, as @Beakertwang and I have observed, there are live casinos in Iowa that are doing this. (For tournaments anyway, I don't think casinos could possibly do this for issuing "checks" for cash game play.) I would venture to say almost everyone that's played has played in games with undenominated chips at some point, and it was fine.

I still think that internalizing the value of chips by color is by far the most basic thing a new poker player needs to memorize, after the ranks of hands.

That's fairly obvious. This is why I tend to advocate for standard colors and will be designing my set accordingly. But either players have to ask when they start or can read for themselves. Those of us that prefer denominations prefer the latter. I'm not saying either is wrong, I'm just observing there are reasons the majority, myself included, appear to prefer it that way.

They clutter up the label/inlay design, and they make chips less flexible (whether augmenting your set or switching up stakes).

I think if this is your opinion you should keep doing what you are doing. But you asked those of us that prefer doing it another way why that is, and I think our reasons are valid as well. Just because you don't think your group would prefer denominated chips, doesn't preclude the rest of us from hosting on receiving positive feedback on our denominated chips. I mean right now, I basically have glorified dice chips with custom labels for cash, my players like it better than when I had undenominated suited sets.

But to sum up, from a hosting standpoint, I think denominated sets are safer and less prone to confusion. You don't have to agree, but you aren't hosting my games. As a player, I'll sit in either kind of game.

 

[JustinInMN]

It’s weird they don’t have denoms, since they are labeled chips. There’s got to be some reason, but I can’t think of one.

Now that I think about it, if they are all the same label, maybe they saved money on design? Maybe they just re-purposed some roulette chips?

http://themogh.org/cg_quickview.php?id=iarirc&sort=0&series=0.0

 

[Taghkanic]

Only one of the (non-casino) games I play in regularly has denominated chips. And this is the game where one encounters confusion the most.

Why? Because in the early levels, they use both black and dark purple chips, which are easily confused.

Once a month, they run a bounty game, which also mixes in a dark blue bounty chip… Which makes things even worse.

Then, in late rounds, their largest color-up chip is yet another shade of (royal) blue. By then, the blacks and purples are off the table, while the dark blue bounty is often still in play. And that makes for another round of confusion.

All these chips (blue, dark blue, dark purple, royal blue) are denominated. Their values are printed on their face. That doesn’t help. They are often confused, because they have the similar edge markings and similar values (the darkness of the color). It means that even observant players with good eyesight often have to ask something like “Is that a 200 call or a 600 bet?” because you just can’t see the difference across the table in social hall lighting.

This to me just proves that most people go by color, not markings, to identify chip values.

------

As for players who still need help... That’s more easily accomplished by providing at buy-in cheat sheets to anyone who wants one. I have them, but never use them except if there is a new player in my game who wants it. A business card sized guide is a good size, because they can keep it by them without it cluttering up things. These can also include the blinds on the opposite side.

I have never, ever had a player ask for one of these after their first session.

And as for a “majority” feeling one way or the other—that’s your opinion. Per above, about 80% of the non-casino games I play in use undenominated (cheap) chips.

 

[Taghkanic]

P.S. This post is prompted by my early efforts at developing a labeling system for a potential cash set... I have toyed with denominations in the graphics, but ultimately think the designs will be much cleaner and appealing if I don’t have to squeeze superfluous numbers onto them.

The plan is for chips with:

1) Progressive edgespots;

2) Different shaped labels on each major chip type;

3) Relatively standard East Coast base colors, so the values are intuitive to experienced players;

4) Color choices which are distinct from each other in hue, value and saturation, to further minimize confusion*;

5) Nature symols unique to each value which further minimize any potential confusion, even from a distance (e.g., it’s hard to confuse an antlered buck with an oak leaf).

6) A business card with chip denoms on one side, buy-ins and other basic guidelines on the other, for when the game launches with new chips, and for future newbies.

That is a LOT of visual cues to go by. If after all that, someone in my game also finds the need for the cash value of each chip to be printed on each... Well, that person is probably just not a fit for our group.



* For example, for a set mainly used for 1/2 or 2/5 games, I might pick a bright white 1; a pale, cool, dull blue 2; a hot red-orange 5 of medium value; a darker, saturated green 25; and a black 100... All with distinct edgespots which don’t pick up colors from the other chips.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

I actually now have two colorblind players in my game... But they play easily with my non-denom chips, because I worked with them on colors they can both distinguish. (There are multiple varieties of coloblindness.)

Also, there are other ways besides denominations that chips can be distinguished by the colorblind: Progressive edgespots, shaped inlays/labels, label design variations, etc.

True. I guess I'm biased in that I have naturally bought denominated chips to avoid the "how much is this chip worth" questions, and I don't see any advantage to buying a set without them, other than to have one non-denom in a set for flexibility (5c or $20, depending on the size of the game, for example).

A few of my players have mentioned colour issues in the past, and I believe one of them is monochromatic. If so, I suspect my solid set

Looks like this to him

(Converson done at http://www.color-blindness.com/coblis-color-blindness-simulator/)

While I love the solids, not all of the players have been out since I bought them. If they play, I'll check with those players first, and if they can't distinguish the colours in stacks, my ceramic set will be used. Both the denoms and edge spots give them multiple ways to distinguish the denoms.

While it's true that I could use a non-denom version of similar ceramics if I had them, the addition of the denom on both the face and edge provides an additional visual cue. It really comes down to your particular crew.