Home Game Tourney Question (1 Viewer)

[Steve Birrer]

So last night I was hosting my "monthly" home tournament. Single table with 9 players. Several regulars couldn't make it so had three new guys at the game. $20 buyin NLHE with rebuys for the first four levels. Levels are 30 minutes.

So we are well into the night but still all 9 players live. Blinds are $150/$300. Hero is in the cutoff. Several folds and two limpers (including one of the new guys). Action comes to hero and he sees JJ. Pot is currently $1050. Hero raises to $1000. Both blinds fold and the first limper folds. Villian calls.

Flop comes A 9 7 rainbow. Pot is $2750. Villain leads out with $2000. Hero has $3500 left in his stack.

So what's the correct play here? Fold, call, shove? I didn't see calling as an option as it leaves hero with only $1500 stack left with two rivers to go. Even if it checks down from there and he loses he only has 5BB left.

So hero thought about it quite and while and....what should he have done?

 

[BGinGA]

As played, fold. Villain has at worst top pair, and could easily have two pair or a set. You still have an 11bb stack.

Pre-flop, bet bigger. My personal opinion based on your stack size (and not knowing the size of others) against two limpers in late position with three players yet to act is:

All-in > limp > fold > small raise

Your actual raise amount is an easy call for most stacks -- just 700 into a 2050 pot, almost 3:1 odds -- and very few aces will fold there with 300 already invested.

Raising at least to 2000 would put his call amount at 1700 into a 3050 pot (well less than 2:1), but that leaves you with only T2500 back, (just over 1/2-pot on the flop) -- so better to either get it all in now, or just limp and set mine for cheap. I think shoving is better.

 

[DoubleEagle]

You had only 15 BB when hand started. With JJ and two limpers in ahead of you, I shove.

 

[Steve Birrer]

I thought about shoving pre flop but generally knowing how this game goes it was certain to get no calls (unless somebody really slow played a monster). But that may have been a better move. But that wasn't my question. I am really more interested in what guys would have done when the post flop bet came at me.

 

[justsomedude]

I thought about shoving pre flop but generally knowing how this game goes it was certain to get no calls (unless somebody really slow played a monster).

Given there’s already a tasty pot, and you have players behind, I’m not sure you really want any callers. Take it down preflop and call it a win.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I thought about shoving pre flop but generally knowing how this game goes it was certain to get no calls (unless somebody really slow played a monster). But that may have been a better move. But that wasn't my question. I am really more interested in what guys would have done when the post flop bet came at me.

JJ doesn’t play well multi-handed. You want to take it down pre-flop or at worst be heads up.

 

[Steve Birrer]

JJ doesn’t play well multi-handed. You want to take it down pre-flop or at worst be heads up.

Ok I get the line of thought. Shove preflop and take a little win. I sized my bet figuring I would at best get one caller. Which is what I got. But let me try again.

Only the first response answered my question. Yes I get had I shove pre then this situation wouldn't have occurred. But I didn't shove so how do you handle post flop?

 

[DoubleEagle]

Ok I get the line of thought. Shove preflop and take a little win. I sized my bet figuring I would at best get one caller. Which is what I got. But let me try again.

Only the first response answered my question. Yes I get had I shove pre then this situation wouldn't have occurred. But I didn't shove so how do you handle post flop?

Fold.

 

[ekricket]

Fold.

I’d fold, and be glad I had position and didn’t have to lead out into that.

 

[Chris Manzoni]

15 bb and 2 limpers behind = automatic shove every time.

 

[Trihonda]

Fold. Easy. Newbie donk betting when an ace pops. He’s got an ace or better.

 

[Steve Birrer]

So I called my son and discussed it with him (he's actually good at the game) and he agreed that shoving pre flop was a better play but that once I didn't do that a fold is the correct play post flop.

As I said I thought long and hard after villains bet and I did fold. I wanted to shove. Something just told me he had nothing but I folded. Well I should have trusted myself. He showed me 45 of hearts. He need runner runner to straight, flush, two pair, or trips. So y'all are right that shoving pre was the way to go. But this also shows how hard it is to try and dissect hands on the internet with such limited information and intel. Not one of you figured he could actually be bluffing here. Oh well more intel for the next time!

 

[Taghkanic]

Blinds are $150/$300. Hero is in the cutoff. Several folds and two limpers (including one of the new guys). Action comes to hero and he sees JJ. Pot is currently $1050. Hero raises to $1000. Both blinds fold and the first limper folds. Villian calls.

Flop comes A 9 7 rainbow. Pot is $2750. Villain leads out with $2000. Hero has $3500 left in his stack.

JJ is a very strong hand, as much as people love to hate it. Preflop you have both the strength of jacks and fold equity going for you. But since at least one overcard is going to come on the flop a large percentage of the time, you are likely to face a tough decision postflop with a short stack, no matter how villain plays it.

Assuming hero started the hand with ($4500), or 15 big blinds, as others have stated, that seems like a correct size for a shove over two limpers with JJ, especially with the blinds yet to act.

You want to fold the blinds out and get no more than one caller. If you do fold everyone out pre, adding 3+ blinds to your stack is not a bad outcome at all in this spot. You’d pick up more fold equity for future shoves, and also more room to maneuver if you want to play some future hand post flop.

And if you do get called, you still have a decent chance at beating a reasonable calling range. While you might get knocked out, the value of doubling up+ is huge. Long term, that’s probably profitable even taking into account the times you get knocked out.

Anyway... Since you did raise ~3.5x preflop, and the newbie villain flat called, him holding Ax or better seems extremely likely once he donks into you after an A hits the board. I would assume he has not just an ace, but a strong one (AK/AQ/AJ or one of the two pair possibilities.)

Realistically, what’s the worst hand villain does that with? I wouldn’t expect to see many bluffs here, except maaaaybe T8 or 56 (both of which probably would prefer to pot control with a check/call in hopes seeing a cheap turn). Since the flop is rainbow, there are no flush draw combos to consider, except backdoors. And you partially block all the TJ combos, and it would be a weird move to make with only a gutshot.

If the hope is that villain is semi-bluffing, what could he have that you can beat, besides verrrry optimistically 9Ts, or a smaller pocket pair? It seems unlikely that in his first session at your game he had already picked up an exploitative read that he could bluff you off Ax or a big pair. So why would the newbie do this, except for value?

I’m not sure how big the Villain’s stack was; knowing that might change the calculation. But based on the info available, I’d say (a) shove pre (b) fold when he donks there.

 

[Taghkanic]

(Even though he showed you 45, which is a pretty bad bluffing candidate IMHO, I would still play it the same as above in most cases. The range of what an unknown villain should have had in that spot is still too strong to call postflop... But now that you have some experience with this villain, you can adjust accordingly.)

 

[Steve Birrer]

I do think it was a mistake on his part to show his cards. Yes he got to puff his chest up for a minute. But now everybody knows he will bluff. Just mucking his cards and raking in the chips would have left the question in our minds. Now certainly next time maybe he isn't bluffing. But we now know 100% that he will bluff in similar situations. Sooner or later, and hopefully its the former, I will catch him.

 

[CHP TD]

I thought about shoving pre flop but generally knowing how this game goes it was certain to get no calls (unless somebody really slow played a monster). But that may have been a better move. But that wasn't my question. I am really more interested in what guys would have done when the post flop bet came at me.

Im confused why would no calls be bad? you got 1 call and that didn't go well. you may be overvaluing jacks and how they play post flop. Take the blinds and be thankful your opponents folded.

as the old saying goes There are 4 ways to play jj and they are all wrong.

 

[Trihonda]

I’d add that it was a good fold, despite the results. You can’t worry about results, just good decisions. Once in a while you make a good decision, and the results are bad. Oh well..

 

[Taghkanic]

I do think it was a mistake on his part to show his cards. Yes he got to puff his chest up for a minute. But now everybody knows he will bluff.

Villain also picked a risky spot to bluff. Yeah, it worked... this time. But the likelihood of you having an ace seems high, so he easily could have gotten caught with his pants down.

He also might even have gotten called by an underpair like your jacks, just because you were so pot committed already. He had virtually no showdown value to back it up the bluff.

I suppose maybe he made a really sharp read. But that’s a lot of metagame for a newbie in a home game just getting to know the field.

 

[PlaidDragon]

Without having read the responses after the OP I'd say:

Blinds are $150/$300.
Hero is in the cutoff.
two limpers

Action comes to hero and he sees JJ.
Pot is currently $1050.
Hero raises to $1000.
Both blinds fold and the first limper folds.
Villian calls.

Villain is last to act and getting paid 2 to 1 on his investment. If he had a pair of face cards or AA, he re-raises. Given he didn't, I'd put his range on: ace/rag, lesser pair, decent suited connectors. He's not willing to go all-out given he's weak pre-flop.

Flop comes A 9 7 rainbow.
Pot is $2750.
Villain leads out with $2000.
Hero has $3500 left in his stack.

So what's the correct play here?
Fold, call, shove?

Ugh. This is a tough situation to gauge given the bet can be interpreted two ways:

1) "I've hit my hand and I want to be paid off."
2) "I'm weak therefor I want to scare people off with a big bet."

To help figure this out we need to know more about the Villain. Is he someone you know, or one of the new guys? How has his play been up to that point? Seemingly, his bet of 2000 has told us something. He has to know your stack and perhaps wanted to make it really hard for you to continue (provided you didn't have a crusher).

So hero thought about it quite and while and....what should he have done?

Calling is not an option. The choices are to push for your tournament life or fold and be nearly crippled. If he IS weak your J's may hold.

My choice would be to shove and hope he doesn't show me A/Rag when he calls.

 

[ilovegravy]

Calling is not an option. The choices are to push for your tournament life or fold and be nearly crippled

I completely agree. A call accomplishes nothing except committing hero to the pot with only two outs to improve his hand.

This decision is very villain-dependent. If we think villain is capable of making this move without an ace, we have to shove here.

 

[detroitdad]

So last night I was hosting my "monthly" home tournament. Single table with 9 players. Several regulars couldn't make it so had three new guys at the game. $20 buyin NLHE with rebuys for the first four levels. Levels are 30 minutes.

So we are well into the night but still all 9 players live. Blinds are $150/$300. Hero is in the cutoff. Several folds and two limpers (including one of the new guys). Action comes to hero and he sees JJ. Pot is currently $1050. Hero raises to $1000. Both blinds fold and the first limper folds. Villian calls.

Flop comes A 9 7 rainbow. Pot is $2750. Villain leads out with $2000. Hero has $3500 left in his stack.

So what's the correct play here? Fold, call, shove? I didn't see calling as an option as it leaves hero with only $1500 stack left with two rivers to go. Even if it checks down from there and he loses he only has 5BB left.

So hero thought about it quite and while and....what should he have done?

Shove or fold, and I'm not folding.

 

[Gobbs]

Not one of you figured he could actually be bluffing here.

Was he bluffing or was he just playing the player? Maybe he read your weak pre-flop raise as exactly what it was, a middle pair that would have to fold to a flopped ace and a strong bet.

Admittedly, I did not read it as a bluff, but I'm rarely in those situations post-flop. So, my reading skills in that situation are a bit weak.

 

[Taghkanic]

A lot of us entertained the idea that it was a bluff and concluded it probably wasn’t because it seemed like such a risky bluffing spot. But then, we weren’t there, hadn’t played any hands with him, don’t know the hero’s table image, and could not evaluate any live tells.