How poorly did I play this hand? NLHE Tournament. (1 Viewer)

[ChipEnvy]

I apologize in advance, I don't post strat threads much so if I leave some info out, let me know.

I busted on this hand and can't figure out if I would do it differently. I would love insight on the thought process behind a way I could have avoided the rail

Tournament is in the 4th round. 20 person field is down to 17. Avg stack is 8800. Blinds are 200/400 with a 50 ante. My stack is 8500 to start the hand. There are 8 people at this table. I feel like my image is pretty nitty, straight forward, not too creative.

I'm in the BB. UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, two folds, the CO, button and SB all call. I look down at KQo. So there is now 2800 in the pot. This is an unusual preflop sequence for this group of players. Normally there are 2 or 3 players to a flop and most times the pot is raised.

- What is the best play here?

I understand that the more people call the better the odds the pot is offering so the later limpers can call with weaker or more speculative hands. With that being the case and coupled with no one showing much strength to this point, I was a breath away to raising to 2100 to see if I could pick up the pot, but ended up checking my option. Early position limpers scared me out it.

Flop comes K63 rainbow. SB Checks.

What now?

 

[btbmason]

I think a check is fine pre, but if you decide to raise pre I would rather just jam it all in. I don't like a raise to 2100 being OOP and so many other people to act behind. I'd rather put it all in and try to add over 30% to your stack without a showdown.

I lead the flop as played, probably something like 1600.

 

[AlPresidente]

I'd ship pre-flop. As played, I'd bet around 1800.

 

[AlPresidente]

Fastposted. What btbmason said.

 

[Mr Tree]

You're already pretty short stacked inthis tournament with an m of around 8 or 21 big blinds, so you will end up all in pretty fast. Considering how shallow you are and that your holding is pretty good (but not great by any means) I think shoving pre is probably the right play with an expectation of variance. As is you have to lead out and most likely jam if you meet resistance. You aren't deep enough to try to feel out if someone else has a holding like AK.

 

[Mojo1312]

Solely based upon the blind level and your table image, I see nothing wrong with a raise.

 

[DrStrange]

Raise all-in preflop with an "M" of eight. Don't raise to a smaller amount, go all in. Hero's position is poor and postflop play will be tough when Hero doesn't flop top pair or better.

Hero is likely holding the best hand of the six hands in play. But there is a problem - Hero is likely to lose more chips when he loses than win chips when he wins. Though he likely wins a lot more often than lose, so it seems likely that the net expected value of the play is positive.

Hero has 3x the pot left behind. I do not see how Hero is going to avoid pot commitment without some amazing villain read once he puts in one more bet. Yet, I can't find any good reason to check/fold top pair good kicker. Bet something like two-thirds pot.

 

[JoseRijo]

Shoving pre-flop is best. Like Strange said, this is one of the best flops you can hope for, and with 20BBs to start the hand, you're committed.

 

[ChipEnvy]

Thanks guys. I had to think a little while but ended up shoving the flop.

My thought process was initially to bet 2500, but then paused to think what I would do if I got raised. I didn't think AA, KK or AK were in play due to the preflop action and being as short as I was I didn't think I could get away from the hand in any scenario and decided I just wanted to end it. In hindsight (and I didn't even realize it until just now) it's a scared play and I think was the biggest of the mistakes I made. I know that I am only going to get called by hands that beat me with an AI bet, but by betting a smaller (as recommended 1800ish) amount I could keep in some of the hands that I am ahead of maximizing the win (when I am ahead).

I was surprised when the button called with Aces.

 

[ChipEnvy]

Let me rephrase... I wasn't surprised that he called with Aces. I was surprised he had Aces.

 

[Trihonda]

The button flatting with AA is atrocious. Especially with EVERYONE in the pot.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I doubt I could have predicted aces would be out in this spot. That's a pretty dumb way for the button to play them.

As others have said, preflop shove is fine. On the flop, shoving isn't terrible, but overbetting the pot by so much means you'll almost never be good when called.

Given that all the money is going in the middle after that flop, a check-raise shove on the flop may have been better. That way, you'll sometimes catch a bet from someone who takes a stab and then folds. Or, you'll check, and there will be a sequence of actions that tells you that KQ is likely beaten.

 

[onerand]

You were doomed from the start, but this is a preflop raise. It's a great bluff squeeze spot too, but your hand figuresto be best of the bunch, except for fluke times like this. I don't like the flop overbet shove. Bet 2k or so and play.

 

[moojersey]

I think the decision comes down to "poker styles" as well. Some guys just hate shipping it all pre-flop. They want to play a flop, but tournament play is a high variance undertaking.

I've played a decent amount of daily $40 - $100 tournaments, but by no means an expert.

My style would be 100% jamming it all pre-flop in that spot. KQ is crushing the table's limp range and just slightly behind some strong Aces like A10 or AJ. You are a coin flip behind JJ and lower.

Yes you can get called by better or be dominated by someone who limped AQ or AK. I think most of the time you just take it down pre-flop without a showdown though.

 

[Dr Lecterr]

I would typically check pre-flop with those specifics. I am a fan of the check raise after the flop, unless you see some crazy action before it gets to you

 

[BGinGA]

I would typically check pre-flop with those specifics. I am a fan of the check raise after the flop, unless you see some crazy action before it gets to you

a check-raise shove on the flop may have been better. That way, you'll sometimes catch a bet from someone who takes a stab and then folds. Or, you'll check, and there will be a sequence of actions that tells you that KQ is likely beaten.

^^ Pretty much sums up my preferences.

I'd rather see a flop for free than either raise or shove pre-flop in this spot (with 20BB, you still have another entire orbit). That UTG limper really concerns me, and wouldn't be surprised to see him re-shove your pre-flop raise with AA, KK, or AK -- all of which are near-death for KQ. Also checking the flop for the same reasons -- I still have a playable stack if shit gets crazy, or can check-raise shove if it doesn't. No need to commit my stack just yet, when there are five other players still to act.

Aces flatting on the button is stupid, invite him to your home game. There's one +EV takeaway.

 

[BGinGA]

Post-note:

Min raising to 800 pre-flop probably gets you a ton of information for only 400 chips. Chances are any hidden monsters are going to come out gunning, hoping to catch a lesser hand.

 

[Dr Lecterr]

Yes. That's fantastic. A min raise is perfect

 

[flipupchipup]

This is not really a question of did you play your cards right, it's more so a question of do you want to shove given the situation. Don't get all of your chips in the middle even with top pair with so many people to play behind you and no idea of where anyone is in the hand. Personally, I would wait for a better situation where you have more information on the hand and better positioning.

 

[kk405]

Post-note:

Min raising to 800 pre-flop probably gets you a ton of information for only 400 chips. Chances are any hidden monsters are going to come out gunning, hoping to catch a lesser hand.

Respectfully disagree. Raising/betting should never be 'to get information'

And the only option here is to jam preflop, and it's not even close. You can't be result oriented and think someone might have limped with AK, AA or a monster hand.

 

[BGinGA]

Not result-oriented at all, lol - you don't know me, or wouldn't even suggest such a silly thing.

With 20BB out of position against a field of unknowns (and having another orbit to play and getting the button shortly), there are actually a lot of options pre-flop. Don't get me wrong here -- I'm no nit, and have a general tendency to jam short-stacked more than most players.... but not in this specific situation as outlined in.the OP.

Many 'tricky' tournament players often limp UTG or UTG+1 with exactly those three hands (especially relatively early in the tournament), hoping to see a raise (and possibly a caller) that they can jam on when it gets back around. Min-raising for 400 from the BB looks extremely strong to a lot of players (many will think it's AA looking to sweeten the pot, and fold), plus it has the bonus effect of flushing out any hidden monsters in UTG.

 

[12thMan]

Was this at Redbelly's game Tom? If it was I'm sad I was on the other table because I would love to know who limped the button with aces.

 

[12thMan]

I'm no nit, and have a general tendency to jam short-stacked more than most players

Confirmed jammy jam tendencies. Bg has absolutely no problem getting his chips in the pot, makes it difficult to put him on a range a lot of times the way he likes to play his stack.

 

[ChipEnvy]

Was this at Redbelly's game Tom? If it was I'm sad I was on the other table because I would love to know who limped the button with aces.

It was... Calvin got me.

 

[mummel]

I probably would have jammed preflop hoping to take down the pot right there. Nothing you could have done differently about those aces.

 

[Jimulacrum]

Respectfully disagree. Raising/betting should never be 'to get information'

Respectfully disagree. A major part of the purpose of raising is to get information, especially when the strength of the field is so hazy, as it is here.

I'm not sure I'm on board with a preflop min-raise here, but I can definitely see a good argument for it, and for making certain betting sequences to get your opponent to reveal his strength.

 

[maxim_666666]

I would bet 2000.
enough to all who are weak have fallen.
and not so much to fold if in response we have all-in.
even if you do not wait for aces ...
there may be many Three of a kind.