Cash Game Ideal 1,000-chip breakdown for underground 1/2 & 2/5 NLHE and PLO game (1 Viewer)

[dmoney]

The host of a local game I have played in is interested in upgrading his chips - he currently uses slugged Monte Carlos. He's comfortable spending ~$500 for ~1,000 chips, and wants to be able to spread a single table of 1/2 or 2/5 NLHE, or 1/2 PLO with $5 bring in - max buy ins are $300 and $1,000, respectively. The game is raked and players usually tip $1-$5 after winning a pot, so there is a fair amount of money that is being removed from play - this is the complicating factor that I'm struggling to figure out.

The current 1/2 game is heavy on $5s - the few $25s I've seen hit the table are with one player who wants a single $25 chip with any of his $300 buy-ins/rebuys. Guesstimating ~$4k-$5k in play for a 1/2 night. From what I can tell, I think the host and player pool would prefer lots of chips on the table, for example, I think a $300 buy-in might be preferred with 60x $5s and average ~10 $1s per player, and a $1k buy-in might be preferred with 80x $5s and a barrel of $25. Those can fit for initial buy-ins, but rebuys at that level start to lean more and more on higher denoms.

I'm suggesting one of the cards mold designs that would allow him to customize the chips - this is appealing to the host for both aesthetic and security reasons.

So what breakdowns are workable under these parameters? Please hold any comments re: "the game is raked, host should spend more!" I don't disagree at all - I will in fact be pushing in this direction - but I'm trying to work within these guidelines to start as this is the most likely path towards upgrading the chips, keeping a good game running well, and keeping the host happy. +++EV

 

[dmoney]

@Rhodeman77 @BGinGA @JustinInMN @Seeking Alpha Social Club - have any of you already solved this or similar?

 

[TheOffalo]

I was going to suggest 100/600/200/100 but then due to the rake he’d need more smaller denom chips. So maybe 200/500/200/100. But that's "only" a bank of $17,700, which would not even be two $1,000 max buy-ins per person at the 2/5 stakes, so I think he may need more chips.

1,200 chips, 200/500/300/200, would be a bank of $30,200 or three $1,000 max buy-ins per person. If 10 people buy-in for max, starting stacks of 20/46/2 for $300 buy-in gets all the $1s and most of the $5s on the table. Starting stacks of 20/46/30 for $1,000 buy-in gets all the $1s and $25s (and most $5s) on the table.

First rebuy uses up the remaining $5 x40 and either $25 x4 for the 1/2 or $100 x8 for the 2/5.

I think the desire for big stacks, like $5 x80 for the $1,000 buy-in, will conflict with the desire to keep the set small. 10 players means $5 chips x800, leaving no room to expand the bank much if capped at 1,000 chips.

 

[upNdown]

Please hold any comments re: "the game is raked, host should spend more!"

It’s not that, it’s just the fact that it is raked and that there’s tipping after every hand - seems like a lot more chips are required, unless they’re coloring up rakes and tips (which you probably don’t want the players to see.)
How long does a session last? Is it 4 hours or 12 hours? That could make a big difference. I guess a relevant question is, how many chips is he using now?

 

[dmoney]

It’s not that, it’s just the fact that it is raked and that there’s tipping after every hand - seems like a lot more chips are required, unless they’re coloring up rakes and tips (which you probably don’t want the players to see.)
How long does a session last? Is it 4 hours or 12 hours? That could make a big difference. I guess a relevant question is, how many chips is he using now?

Fair points and good questions.

How long does a session last? Is it 4 hours or 12 hours?

Game starts at 7p and based on comments from host I think it's notable but not totally unexpected to run until 2-3ish.

how many chips is he using now?

I think a single 1,000-chip birdcage. No idea on the breakdown besides the knowledge that it's almost exclusively $5s on the table for 1/2 $300 max.

 

[bernielomax]

@doublebooyah85

 

[LeLe]

Tipping is involved so 200 $1 is more preferred over 100 $1

400 $5 is already much for 1000 chip set

I will go $1/$5/$25/$100/$500 200/400/300/80/20 that about $30k bank; enough for a normal $2/$5 game, if the host need more bank, he could replace some more $25 with $500

 

[sheikh617]

Cards Molds best for customization and game security in the sense that making replicas would take a fair amount of effort. China Clays for off the shelf availability.

$1 - 200
$5 - 500
$25 - 200
$100 - 60
$500 - 40
Total = 1000
Bank = $33700

I have no clue how big this game runs but I feel this breakdown checks off the desire for large stacks and can easily cover a 1/2 game. For 2/5 and the PLO I have no clue how big this game plays but to me it seems like this is a deep enough bank. I think you need the higher number of $1s for tipping. Ideally I think this person is better off having 1200 chips but you can easily make 1000 work with the right number of high denoms.

 

[casinochipper22]

The game is raked and players usually tip $1-$5 after winning a pot, so there is a fair amount of money that is being removed from play - this is the complicating factor that I'm struggling to figure out.

I deal/play in a raked games, and our solution to this is just to color up the dealer tips and rake every hour or so, and then bring back those small chips into play. So small chips go from table, to toke box and drop box. Then colored up out of the boxes, then into the dealer tray. then dealer puts the small chips back in play by making change and coloring down. If you have easy access to both boxes, its pretty smooth and the players shouldn't even notice.

 

[doublebooyah85]

1 x 200
5 x 500
25 x 200
100 x 80
500 x 20

Usually dealers color up when they can as well. Gets those small denoms back in play.

I’d shoot for 1200 chips since there is a rake. Add another rack of $5s or two. You don’t want the rake to be noticeable w $5s missing from the table especially if they are accustomed to lots of $5. 500 isn’t many.

 

[dmoney]

So small chips go from table, to toke box and drop box. Then colored up out of the boxes, then into the dealer tray.

This table has just the dealer tray - no drop or tip box. Not sure how he organizes the tray between chips for change, rake, and tips.

 

[BGinGA]

$1 - 200
$5 - 500
$25 - 200
$100 - 60
$500 - 40
Total = 1000
Bank = $33700

this breakdown checks off the desire for large stacks and can easily cover a 1/2 game. For 2/5 and the PLO I have no clue how big this game plays but to me it seems like this is a deep enough bank.

Ideally I think this person is better off having 1200 chips

^^ This is my suggestion also. Two more racks of $5s if you expand it to 1200 chips.

 

[casinochipper22]

This table has just the dealer tray - no drop or tip box. Not sure how he organizes the tray between chips for change, rake, and tips.

then it should be that much easier. small chips can go in and out of the rack if the dealer can keep track and color up with bigger chips. technically no chips are even leaving the table. Start the table bank with like $1,000 before the game. ten $100 chips. Then color up as he brings in $100 into the tray, and small chips can go back out to the table.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This table has just the dealer tray - no drop or tip box. Not sure how he organizes the tray between chips for change, rake, and tips.

Gosh I hate this. If the host trusts them, great, but at an underground game with significant money coming and going this would be a nightmare scenario for me. I can keep tips and bank separate, easy, but to keep bank + rake + tips while running the game, gotta be creative.

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

The host of a local game I have played in is interested in upgrading his chips - he currently uses slugged Monte Carlos. He's comfortable spending ~$500 for ~1,000 chips, and wants to be able to spread a single table of 1/2 or 2/5 NLHE, or 1/2 PLO with $5 bring in - max buy ins are $300 and $1,000, respectively. The game is raked and players usually tip $1-$5 after winning a pot, so there is a fair amount of money that is being removed from play - this is the complicating factor that I'm struggling to figure out.

The current 1/2 game is heavy on $5s - the few $25s I've seen hit the table are with one player who wants a single $25 chip with any of his $300 buy-ins/rebuys. Guesstimating ~$4k-$5k in play for a 1/2 night. From what I can tell, I think the host and player pool would prefer lots of chips on the table, for example, I think a $300 buy-in might be preferred with 60x $5s and average ~10 $1s per player, and a $1k buy-in might be preferred with 80x $5s and a barrel of $25. Those can fit for initial buy-ins, but rebuys at that level start to lean more and more on higher denoms.

I'm suggesting one of the cards mold designs that would allow him to customize the chips - this is appealing to the host for both aesthetic and security reasons.

So what breakdowns are workable under these parameters? Please hold any comments re: "the game is raked, host should spend more!" I don't disagree at all - I will in fact be pushing in this direction - but I'm trying to work within these guidelines to start as this is the most likely path towards upgrading the chips, keeping a good game running well, and keeping the host happy. +++EV

I think @sheikh617 is pretty spot on. The only difference in my 2/5 setup is I have 600 $5s. I also only have 100 $1s, but you probably need 200 with tipping, and 200 when playing $1/$2. I play at a house where we tip the dedicated dealer and the guy who runs it is way too light on $1s. It'a a pain in the ass to constantly make change.

Cards Molds best for customization and game security in the sense that making replicas would take a fair amount of effort. China Clays for off the shelf availability.

$1 - 200
$5 - 500
$25 - 200
$100 - 60
$500 - 40
Total = 1000
Bank = $33700

I have no clue how big this game runs but I feel this breakdown checks off the desire for large stacks and can easily cover a 1/2 game. For 2/5 and the PLO I have no clue how big this game plays but to me it seems like this is a deep enough bank. I think you need the higher number of $1s for tipping. Ideally I think this person is better off having 1200 chips but you can easily make 1000 work with the right number of high denoms.

 

[doublebooyah85]

Retracted. Didn’t see host goes up to 2-5.

 

[TheOffalo]

Adding $500s would definitely make things easier to support the 2/5 game with ~1,000 chips. Maybe even have the $500s be 43mm.

If placing a private cards mold order (as opposed to a GB), I don't think you're restricted to 25-chip increments, but I think any denom would still need a minimum order of 25 (don't quote me on this).

So you could do a 1,025 chip set with 200/500/200/100 or 200/400/300/100 in 39mm chips and add 25x $500 43mm chips, for a total bank of $30,200 or $32,200, respectively. (Or do 50x $500 43mm chips to future-proof it a little and support 5/5 or even 5/10 games with over $42K in bank.)

 

[Mojo1312]

I have played in both types of games that you describe @dmoney. @doublebooyah85 and @sheikh617 nailed it. I favor Doublebooyah's breakdown. The host needs to decide if he wants two extra racks of fives based on his roster of players.

Underground games tend to squeeze players in. What is the table max for PLO?

 

[dmoney]

What is the table max for PLO?

Host has only run 1/2 $300 max NLH to my knowledge. But several players in the pool play in other games, including 2/5 $1k+ so there’s some appetite for it.

Host has never spread PLO but sounds like he wants to try 1/2 $5 bring in $1k cap.

 

[Legend5555]

Gosh I hate this. If the host trusts them, great, but at an underground game with significant money coming and going this would be a nightmare scenario for me. I can keep tips and bank separate, easy, but to keep bank + rake + tips while running the game, gotta be creative.

This is standard in my area as well. Luckily, all the dealers i've seen in the games I play are on the up and up. I'm sure part of the reason is that it's easier to just be able to color up the tips and rake and have the host remove it periodically than constantly lose a bunch of $5s from the table over and over. Plus, not having to have a table with a drop slot built.

 

[Legend5555]

Host has only run 1/2 $300 max NLH to my knowledge. But several players in the pool play in other games, including 2/5 $1k+ so there’s some appetite for it.

Host has never spread PLO but sounds like he wants to try 1/2 $5 bring in $1k cap.

Depending on the players, a $1k cap $5 bring-in PLO game could get very big. I've seen the dealer's choice PLO/PLO8 4 or 5 card $5-$15 on the button game around here get over 40k on the table before. Granted, they don't have a cap. But still, it could happen knowing PLO players.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

This is standard in my area as well. Luckily, all the dealers i've seen in the games I play are on the up and up. I'm sure part of the reason is that it's easier to just be able to color up the tips and rake and have the host remove it periodically than constantly lose a bunch of $5s from the table over and over. Plus, not having to have a table with a drop slot built.

Well I should HOPE you think the dealers are on the up and up lol! Fair, maybe I'm just spoiled. Trust everyone but always cut the deck, and rake goes ina box.

 

[VMR911]

I always find myself coming back to @Quad Johnson 's guide for cash game breakdown / requirements —>

Thread 'The Beginners Guide To Mapping Out A Cash Game Chip Set - 5c/10c to $5/$10'

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...ut-a-cash-game-chip-set-5c-10c-to-5-10.30897/

 

[Legend5555]

Well I should HOPE you think the dealers are on the up and up lol! Fair, maybe I'm just spoiled. Trust everyone but always cut the deck, and rake goes ina box.

I just meant, i've watched all of them carefully. Nothing funny that i've seen. When we start running our game, they won't be able to steal rake though, cause we won't have one!

 

[dmoney]

I always find myself coming back to @Quad Johnson 's guide for cash game breakdown / requirements —>

Thread 'The Beginners Guide To Mapping Out A Cash Game Chip Set - 5c/10c to $5/$10'

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...ut-a-cash-game-chip-set-5c-10c-to-5-10.30897/

I love this thread too! Fwiw this starting stack (5/14/13/1/1) feels more like a tournament than cash, and I think host and players would much prefer more chips in starting stacks with higher denoms for rebuys.

In the end though, the breakdowns are similar to what @sheikh617 and @BGinGA suggested.

Max Buy In Starting Stacks

5x $1 ($5)
14x $5 ($70)
13x $25 ($325)
1x $100 ($100)
1x $500 ($500)

 

[Rhodeman77]

My 1000 chip breakdown for this game would be:

$1– 160
$5– 500
$25-200
$100–100
$500–40

The dealer/floor should be coloring up tips/rake before putting into the drop. My dealer uses a rack to keep his tips. When I see the $5’s barrel get full I buy them from him with $25’s from my stack and the $5’s are back in play.

 

[Machine]

I've only ever played in ranked games until I found my way here.

Typically a raked game, they don't want to goto the box, because they don't want to draw attention to it, or they sell chips out of the box to limit the trackability of the rake.

Tips should be somewhere in the ball park of 20 to 30% of the rake, coloring up tips is ideal and typically I have the house man take the tips @ 200 so the tip spot is clean.

If you don't have a drop, then you can get away with not having as many $5s, but having more on the table will lessen the feel of the rake on the game.

Please hold any comments re: "the game is raked, host should spend more!"

Not flaming, but its a raked game the host should spend more. Not because he is taking a rake he should spend more, but from a security perspective, he should WANT to spend more. The typical CC / Tina clays will not hold up to a year of weekly or biweekly play imho.

We tell every new member that signs up and talks about a XXX chip break down, to start from the beginning where we start with the bank and calculate the needs of the game (like most have done above) and then with the break down find a realistic budget. 500 USD is a joke, and I would try to educate him.

If you're taking a rake, say 1 on 20 max of 5 (its likely higher but), at 28 hands an hour, you're pulling about 140 an hour, over 6 hours is going to be 840 per game. That one table and I'm being conservative on the rake.

its money he will have to spend again within a year if he goes with the card molds. I'm in the boat, trying to help friends running a raked game that doesn't value better than dice chips, I'm spending about 300 bucks on higher end denoms for them; hope they see the value and want better all round, but its on them.

 

[allforcharity]

200x $1
400x $5
300 x $25
80x $100
20x $500
Add $5s as necessary/willing to spend

 

[dmoney]

Consensus seems to be approximately:

$1 - 200
$5 - 500
$25 - 200
$100 - 60
$500 - 40
Total = 1000
Bank = $33700

If it gets bumped to 1,100 or 1,200 chips, I’d probably add a rack each of $5s and $25s.

 

[philhut]

If the game is raked for $1/2 then he will need a lot more $1 chips to make the perception of the rake low to the players. Ideally he should never have to access the rake bucket until the end of the night, or when opening the bucket and changing it out its not good to have players seeing chips recycled/rotated back in as it gives off putting perceptions at times. I suggest at least 400x$1 chips and 800x$5 chips per 1/2 table along with 200x$25 and/or 100x$100 at least with a few others to spare to account for the players taking chips home/crushed under seats/etc. For 2/5 you need an extra rack of $25 and $100 and 1 barrel of $500 to the previous counts to be easily functional. Not all chips are in play in a public game, some chips are in the players hands when they leave the table and do "whatever" until they exchange them at the cage thus you need extra chips to account for this also. Also the higher value chips are good to help players chip(high value chips) out at the table before walking to the cage (tip opportunity).

If stuck on 1000 chips you will see players upset at the shuffling of chips back into the game realizing what the take is.
I'll never forget how awkward it felt opening the table chip slot to recirculate $1's at the very first stag and doe I ever rented myself and my pharaoh's out to. I only have 250x$1's at the time and remember having to open the tips bucket mid event. Afterwards the game basically died once people saw how much $1 was in the tips/rack bucket after ~4hrs of cards. The even was 6 hrs or so and nobody played cards in the last 2 hrs. Afterwards I gave people only 5 or sometimes 10x$1 chips in their starting stacks or none at all with the ones in my tray. At that stag and doe I gave starting players 20x$1's and ?x$5's. So i'd say the minimum you will want is 250x$1's but its surprising how fast they go. Same goes for $5's in a 2/5 game depending what the rake "details" are. To me it is worth masking the dirty details with extra chips and harvesting your massive horde later in the night when only those in the know can see

Assuming this raked game is meant to last for more than 2 nights along with upgrades to custom chips an expansion in count would do well. At minimum you can pitch that the 1000 chip birdcage carrier can actually store up to 1200 chips in most cases. This at least gives you some wiggle room.

I'm going to hold from giving a count because its tough to cover both 1/2 and 2/5 out of one set for a raked game with just 1000 chips....this is why you are having a tough time finding a solution @dmoney