Introducing poker etiquette (2 Viewers)

[k9dr]

I have been playing in a game with a group of guys that are fun to play with, but are very loose with typical poker etiquette. They don't use a cut card, they splash the pot, they pre-deal the flop-turn-and river, and they openly talk about possibilities while the hand is in play. They do at least shuffle behind and cut the cards. Before you ask why I play there, the game has been profitable.

The host of this game is moving and I have been asked to host at my house. My question, how do I get them to follow the rules without sounding like a rules Nazi. I don't want to alienate anyone, but I would like to at least make a few adjustments. I feel that if I harp on the rules too much, the game might break.

For me, the most important issues are the cut card and pre-dealing. I can cringe and live with the others or at least wait till later to work on those issues.

Any suggestions ??

 

[Jeff]

You deal fom the center and do it right?

 

[Gameface]

I have been playing in a game with a group of guys that are fun to play with, but are very loose with typical poker etiquette. They don't use a cut card, they splash the pot, they pre-deal the flop-turn-and river, and they openly talk about possibilities while the hand is in play. They do at least shuffle behind and cut the cards. Before you ask why I play there, the game has been profitable.

The host of this game is moving and I have been asked to host at my house. My question, how do I get them to follow the rules without sounding like a rules Nazi. I don't want to alienate anyone, but I would like to at least make a few adjustments. I feel that if I harp on the rules too much, the game might break.

For me, the most important issues are the cut card and pre-dealing. I can cringe and live with the others or at least wait till later to work on those issues.

Any suggestions ??

I'm in a somewhat similar situation. Although I was an established host before the current host started his game and more than half the players in his game are from the game I used to host. He didn't use cut cards so I brought my own. I generally act as dedicated dealer, so I just start using the cut cards and now it's normal.

Again, since I'm the dedicated dealer I have some control over things like reminding players to keep it down with the table talk. When players splash the pot I seperate their bet from the pot and put it back in front on them.

I guess what I'm saying is that I just create the culture by living the culture. If you're comfortable acting as dedicated dealer then without being overbearing just start doing things the way you want them done and before long people will just do that because it's normal and/or they will see the benefits of it if they go to a game that doesn't follow those standards.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I'm in a similar situation because the other guy is shutting his game down for the summer and I'm picking mine back up. So I'll be integrating a few people into the full "Gameface Poker" experience.

The other guy hosts primarily so that he has a convenient game to play in. I take hosting much more seriously and try to create an experience for veteran players and new players that first makes them comfortable and second gets them excited about poker. Hosting takes priority over my play.

 

[BGinGA]

Just post and announce the really important rules -- required cut card, no pre-dealing, bets in front not splashed -- and simply explain (if asked) why they are important to both maintain the integrity of the game and eliminate possible problems from ever occurring.

Those few all make the game more enjoyable and require very minor participant changes -- and it's what is done in nearly all real money games (for good reasons), private or public.

Talking about hands in progress.... well, fixing that one will be harder.

 

[Kain8]

Make a big poster showing all your rules that you enforce at your game. If people show up once and never come back, well, the game was dying anyway, so at least you get one more crack at their wallets!

 

[ekricket]

Talking about hands in progress.... well, fixing that one will be harder.

When they start this kind of talk, start talking percentages, outs, and pot odds. They won't say a word after a while because you'll start spouting that "math stuff".

 

[k9dr]

You deal fom the center and do it right?

I like this idea, although I'm not sure I want to deal all night. I am considering hiring a dealer.

 

[moose]

I was at one place where the rules were very loose and the host recognized that it was costing him players and he decided to tighten things up by adding a new rule about every 4 games.

Personally I think it is easier to start fresh since you are now the host and the venue has changed. Start the game with a discussion about how you want the game to be run so that it is fair to everyone and for the security of the game that you will now be using rules that protect the integrity of the game. Lay them all out and stress that there won't be any penalties but that you won't permit people to constantly break the rules either. Let them ask questions if they have any and then begin the game.

 

[Gameface]

I was at one place where the rules were very loose and the host recognized that it was costing him players and he decided to tighten things up by adding a new rule about every 4 games.

Personally I think it is easier to start fresh since you are now the host and the venue has changed. Start the game with a discussion about how you want the game to be run so that it is fair to everyone and for the security of the game that you will now be using rules that protect the integrity of the game. Lay them all out and stress that there won't be any penalties but that you won't permit people to constantly break the rules either. Let them ask questions if they have any and then begin the game.

Yeah, it's not about handing out penalties. Reminders generally do the trick.

 

[BukNaked36]

If you have cut cards available and start using them, players will use them. If anyone questions it, just say it's so no one can accidentally see the bottom card.

Not splashing the pot is another one that just makes sense when explained that you need to keep bets straight.

Comments like "I'm just trying to keep the game running smooth" or "I'm just trying to keep the game moving" make sense to guys.

Pre-dealing is a tougher sell because it assumes card marks or discoloration. You're almost going to have to spot a creased card in front of them to justify it.

 

[MrCatPants]

The poster can help, but you're trying to adjust human behavior. It took some effort to get two of my guys used to the one chip rule. Started with kindly asking - "what action is that?" when they would throw out a single chip. That didn't do much, so I started just verbally announcing the call - it got fixed pretty quick for the most part.

You dealing, or the dealer dealing with your guidance on what you're looking for, may be a way to handle it. With the dealer though, you may want to prep your players that since you're using a dealer, he's going to hold the table to standard poker procedure/rules so they don't just complain about the "weirdo" you hired.

 

[BGinGA]

Pre-dealing is a tougher sell because it assumes card marks or discoloration. You're almost going to have to spot a creased card in front of them to justify it.

Bigger problem than marked cards (imo) is the likelihood of the board cards getting prematurely exposed, or mixed up when somebody throws their hand into them when folding. It's just a bad habit that's easy to break.

 

[JustinInMN]

I was at one place where the rules were very loose and the host recognized that it was costing him players and he decided to tighten things up by adding a new rule about every 4 games.

+1 For the gradual approach. Just introduce a couple points at a time so it's not overwhelming. It will require patience on your part and force you to prioritize what's important and what you may live with.

Also agree on making sure your emphasis is not threatening and you believe the changes are good for the game. Agree on never threatening penalties, but do remind confusion can lead to rulings different than the actors intentions.

Bigger problem than marked cards (imo) is the likelihood of the board cards getting prematurely exposed, or mixed up when somebody throws their hand into them when folding. It's just a bad habit that's easy to break.

This would be high on my list to fix. And @BGinGA has the right idea. Stub protection is one reason not to deal early. But the prevention of premature exposure is as important.

I always rap the table when I deal, many won't, but at least getting them to burn after the action is closed gives you a couple seconds to prevent a premature burn and turn.

If they do this, just say the "there's still action" and explain burning early should be interpreted as the close of action and players need to speak up to prevent the issue.

Good luck!

 

[upNdown]

I feel like you can do it pretty easily. You say you’re being asked to take over hosting. Just make it clear from the outset that the only way you’re comfortable hosting is by holding everybody to the same set of rules that you’re used to. I mean, unless this is a raked game, you’re 100% doing them the favor. If you make the new rules clear in your acceptance speech, I predict a smooth transition.

 

[timinater]

Now is exactly the time to make changes. It helps to come at it through the lens of promoting fairness and game integrity. Focus on how splashing the pot could cost you money if you misunderstand the bet, or the PITA it causes if you need a side pot etc.

As others have said pre-dealing is weird and just an accident waiting to happen, not to mention defeating the purpose of the burn card. Nobody is marking cards in your game (probably) but these are some of the things we do to show guests and new playersthat the game is being run fairly.

I could go on but probably my key advice would be to get another "senior" player on the same page as you, and the next time someone splashes the pot you'll have support.

I've had a lot of success with a gentle approach. When something comes up that is contrary to house rules or etiquette, bring it up and coach your players. Ex. Someone tosses in one chip clearly intending to raise, I'll ask them if they meant to raise, and then take that opportunity to explain that we use the one chip rule and how it works, why it helps when it comes to making change etc.

We're not playing life changing stakes, and nothing says enjoy our fun poker game like reading a new player the riot act before the game.

 

[Frogzilla]

The cut card takes care of itself by just having cut cards.

For the others, you should be fine if you do three things

-Be ready to back down if you get a lot of opposition to any change (even though you’re on the right side of the argument, let it go before it gets to argument)

-Point out etiquette mistakes gently, and mainly to the people who are winning more than you that evening

-Never use the phrases “its the proper way” or “its how done in casino” for etiquette

 

[TheBigTater]

You're hosting so you get to implement some house rules. Post em' and at the very first game tell everyone these are the house rules and you expect everyone to read them before play starts. Then there is no excuse when you refer to them later (in a friendly manner of course )

Providing cut cards should fix that problem.

No splashing the pot should be on every rules sheet ever! Enforce it whether they like it or not, seriously.

Accidentally muck into the pre-dealt flop/turn/river once or twice to demonstrate how it is a bad idea.
Seriously (not totally, I like the above demonstration to enforce the point, especially when some of the major offenders are involved in a big pot), just explain that cards shouldn't be dealt for the next betting round until all action for the previous round is done.

Getting people not in the hand to stop talking about the hand will take time, just gentle reminders over an extended period should get intelligent folks to change their behavior. This will be the hardest bad habit to break.

If slight rules changes make the game break up then it isn't meant to be. If you let the bad habits continue it would have to be a "really" meaty game for me to host with those conditions.

 

[TexRex]

I think having a set of written rules makes life a lot easier. You can notify of them of the rules, and send them a copy. We have pretty comprehensive rules, but spend little time in games on them. Once a year, I announce any new rules before the start of the first game of the new year. They don't hear from me after that unless we make a rule change in the middle of the year.

Like Frogzilla said, how it's presented makes a difference. I've found most players will follow the rules if they understand the reason for the rules, but I don't think I'm a rule Nazi. I'm more of a spirit of the rule guy than a letter of the rule guy. Frogzilla has played in my game -- he can say how it is from a new player's perspective. If it's a profitable game, their lack of following the rules probably isn't hurting you -- it may be helping.

Slowly introducing changes works when you are in someone else's game, but when it switches to your game, you decide what the rules are. You can always say "I know this isn't what you are used to, but we loosely follow WSOP/TDA/RROP rules. We'll have a transition time for you to get used to the rules." Then as issues come up, explain the rules gently but firmly. Honestly players shouldn't expect to have the same rules at different venues since there are probably as many variations as their are games. Even games playing by the same rules are likely to have some things either interpreted differently or more loosely at different games.

I got several players from another game and my rules were quite different, but that really didn't cause issues.

 

[Trihonda]

For the very first game, I would explain that you enjoy hosting and want to make sure that everyone has a great time. I would also explain that to ensure this, you have instituted long standing rules for your home game, and that these shouldn’t be a big deal (down play the impact). Then I would briefly explain a few of the rules that you think might be issues. Then play some cards.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I dealt with this issue a few years ago when I joined a weekly tourney group that had been playing for years. I stumbled around with it at first; the "let's do it this way because that's the way casinos do it" approach failed miserably.

Ultimately I got the group on track with the big stuff (using a button and cut card, burning, not splashing the pot, OPTAH). What seemed to work most consistently for me is explaining how a new rule would benefit the players:
- If you splash the pot, you might be throwing too much in and costing yourself chips.
- If you don't use a cut card, an opponent might see the bottom of the deck and have an advantage against you.
- If you say "who's got the flush" when a fourth club hits the board, your might help your opponent realize that he has you beat.
- If you predeal the board and have a good hand, what happens if somebody mucks into it? What if a card is accidentally marked and gives your opponent more info?

Stuff like that opened most of the more casual players' eyes to the reasons behind the rules, and that made it easier to get them to start following along.

EDIT: cut card, not burn card

 

[CHP TD]

all u need to do is explain Why they are there. if u cant explain why they are they are there u don't understand them.

Show them why ther are there splashng the pot and the cut card are so easy to demonstrate why.

most important you are bringing about a cultural change. - that will take time. if u try to do it all at once you will alienate the group. dont shoot the cash cow! people are ok with losing money to nice people. Be that guy.

deal with the most important rule then the second and so on. don't try to do it all at once and take it easy. No one likes a rule nazi if they have lived in a rule less way.

ask yourself "how important is it?" and i really want to stress this How important is it really?

so whats important to you having a game that is somewhat lax or sitting home alone?

 

[k9dr]

Great suggestions from everyone - thanks (y) :thumbsup: I have decided to at least post some house rules and gradually introduce them. I will explain them when/if the situation arises.

 

[longflop]

Just post and announce the really important rules

This! I post all of the blind levels and rebuy options so there is no debate. Plus that way it gives you something to point to. its hard to argue it, when its in writing on the wall.

Also, maybe introduce one rule per game, that way its a gradual progression to where you want to be.

Before you draw seats " Hey guys, pay attention, new rule this week."

 

[longflop]

Great suggestions from everyone - thanks (y) :thumbsup: I have decided to at least post some house rules and gradually introduce them. I will explain them when/if the situation arises.

View attachment 166728

All of that sounds reasonable, would people really have a problem with those?

 

[JustinInMN]

At the risk of being a writing NAZI I offer a couple changes.

I would add "after the hand" to point 6.

I also offer this revision on point 9 using only positive verbage.

"Only deal the flop, turn, and river at the conclusion of action." I would omit the explination. (There's probably a way to write this to apply to all forms.)

Otherwise this is a good list and covers the important things.

 

[moose]

Great suggestions from everyone - thanks (y) :thumbsup: I have decided to at least post some house rules and gradually introduce them. I will explain them when/if the situation arises.

View attachment 166728

Modify rule 5

5a. One player to a hand. No-one may assist with reading a hand unless it has been tabled for all to see.
5b. Cards speak. All players are encouraged to speak up if the pot if being awarded incorrectly once the cards have been tabled.

 

[Jambine]

Great suggestions from everyone - thanks (y) :thumbsup: I have decided to at least post some house rules and gradually introduce them. I will explain them when/if the situation arises.

View attachment 166728

This is an excellent start. You should have no problem getting this game moving well.
Keep in mind that most of your players were probably acting out of ignorance. When they understand the reason for these rules, I'm sure they will comply

 

[upNdown]

Show them why ther are there splashng the pot and the cut card are so easy to demonstrate why.

Yes!
I think a lot of people might not know exactly what splashing the pot means. I know when I began, I though that meant what Teddy KGB did when he said “I’ll splash the pot whenever the faack I want”

 

[Old State]

Definitely set the rules. If it is my close friends I usually break their balls a bit. For people I don’t know I usually tee it up like “I don’t have many House rules per se but try to stick to standard Poker etiquette.” Then mention splashing the pot (the worst), etc

When I’m at someone else’s game I just try to adhere to poker etiquette when it’s my deal and when I bet and hope it rubs off. When I’m the dealer I always pull in the bets and stack them. If someone splashes I collect and count out the bet if it’s a lot of chips.

I play in a league where people leave their bets out in front of them for the entire hand. Never saw that before. It’s very confusing. Not to mention all the change making before the betting is over.

 

[Blaster]

They don't use a cut card, they splash the pot, they pre-deal the flop-turn-and river, and they openly talk about possibilities while the hand is in play.

Any suggestions ??

From experience ...
When there are player(s) at the table that have never used cut cards, you will probably see:
Although it seems straightforward, ( cut the deck onto the cut card, then put the remainder on top, pick up & deal), & even though the cut card may be placed right next to the deck waiting for the cut, these players will invariably look at the cut card confused, then cut half the deck diagonally away from the cut card, onto a different part of the table, & then be totally confused as to how / where to put the cut card in relation to the 2 halves, often then actually "uncutting" the deck back to it's original state, & simply then putting the whole thing onto the cut card, uncut .. Constant announcements of "cut the deck ONTO the cut card", until they get used to it ...

Also, I'm going to guess that this group will need the rule of: ( pet peeve of mine):
"Do not "make Chip Change" until all betting in the round is complete. Do not grab other player's blinds/bets, or any chip(s) from the pot, while there are players are still acting. Relax, keep your bet in front of you, & wait for chip change until after all players have acted. "

My house rules:
https://justpaste.it/167q3