Introducing poker to newbies / how to make a "let's try poker" night not awful (1 Viewer)

[Poker Zombie]

If they know how to shuffle chips, they're not the newbies they purport to be.

 

[Nex]

Some might have watched poker on TV before after all, and maybe think continuous chip shuffling was an integral part of the game

The majority, according to my colleague, are bloody beginners. She doesn't know about 2 people though.
But you're right. I think I can make better use of the space occupied by that barrel in my Pelican case.

 

[dew4au]

It sounds like you're on the right track now. @Poker Zombie has a wealth of experience in this realm, and my own experiences teaching newbies aligns with his observations. Your mind was in the right placing thinking about the ease of leaving a cash game, but for my new players limiting loss trumps come-and-go flexibility.

As for a disclaimer about your chips. It's definitely a good idea to make sure people know not to abuse them. In one of my early games, I had someone drop a chip onto my tile floor and then step on it and slide it back to himself. I don't make a huge stink about it though. They are chips that are meant to be played with, and they will outlast me. Flea bites are going to happen. Just don't abuse them and we're good.

 

[mrplacey]

This is a great thread relevant to my interests. Have been pondering the same as @Nex regarding putting a group of colleagues together for our first game. A couple have had poker on the back burner since the online boom, while others have never played cards for money.

Based on the comments, I definitely see that a turbo tournament is in our future. 2,5-3h seems perfect from an attention span point of view, while still keeping it interesting with a 10€ buy in. Printing out the hand chart is a great and simple idea, will definitely steal that one.

 

[Nex]

• 4 racks tournament - starting stacks for 10 players w/seating chips (and two CU chips in each row)
• 1 rack tournament - colorup chips, rebuys, emergency replacements
• 6 racks cash - for the demo
• 1 double setup Fournier 2pip 2color bridge size, nice Fleur de Lys back
• 2 decks Fournier 2pip 2color poker size
• 1 double setup Copag 2pip 4color poker size
• All decks with fitting cutting cards
• Dealer button
• Tournament blind timer (simple kitchen timer with large display, no special functionality)
• 10 printouts of poker hand ranking
• Waiter's purse with plenty of change
• Money bill validator (probably overkill but why not)
• Tiny notepad + pen
• Tube with assortment of chips (cheapo plastic with holographic foil sticker, Monaco Clubs, custom Sun-Fly ceramics)
• Card guard chip for myself
• Full printout of TDA rules in lid (not sure if most recent but probably will still do the job)

...am I missing anything?
(The table topper of course doesn't fit inside the Pelican )

Edit: Missing printout of blind structure.

 

[dew4au]

...am I missing anything?

What are you using for the bind timer? Do you have a tablet or laptop to show the clock and blinds?

 

[Nex]

What are you using for the bind timer? Do you have a tablet or laptop to show the clock and blinds?

Just a simple kitchen timer. Relatively big digital display, maybe 2.5" x 2.5". Has no functionality other than setting a certain time in minutes/seconds and counting down to zero from it. Beeps fairly loud when time is up.

My plan was to print not only a sheet with all relevant tournament info i.e. full blind structure and payouts, but also a foldable piece of paper for each blind level, printed on both sides, that I'd put on the table like this: _____/\_____ That way, easy to see from any angle. Only the timer would be an issue.

 

[dew4au]

My plan was to print not only a sheet with all relevant tournament info i.e. full blind structure and payouts, but also a foldable piece of paper for each blind level, printed on both sides, that I'd put on the table like this: _____/\_____ That way, easy to see from any angle.

Sounds good! (y) :thumbsup:

I hope things go well for you guys!

 

[Poker Zombie]

+1 to using a laptop or an iPad-like device for the blinds. Not necessary, but easier for seeing current blinds - though your solution sounds fine (and much cheaper if you don't already have a portable device).

 

[Nex]

I do have an iPad. But having already killed the display of one by accidentally dropping a spoon on it from a height of merely 6" or so - and this being my only tablet device - I'd certainly not put it at risk for that.

Maybe, if I end up doing tournaments more, I'd pick up a really cheap and small Android tablet dedicated for blind timer usage. But with my current strong preference for cash games I don't think it'd be worth the investment atm.

 

[Taghkanic]

Some players might be intimidated by the multi-hour time frame of a tournament where they essentially can't leave early without sacrificing their whole buyin.

In my experience, it’s the opposite: Newbies prefer a tournament format and are more intimidated by cash.

Tournaments among newbies virtually guarantee that they’re going to get to play for a couple hours—as few novice players get it all in early, even with ridiculously good hands. More importantly, it gives them some sense of security that their potential losses feel “capped” (unless you are allowing unlimited rebuys, which I would not recommend). To the extent that the true main goal is socializing, with the chance of winning some money thrown in, making sure it is not a 20-minute miserable experience is important.

A tournament with an add-on at the first break also tends to allow even the sloppiest players to last long enough to feel they got some entertainment out of the night. I don’t allow full rebuys in tournaments I host, but I do have an add-on which you can take early if you bust before the break, as a sort of mini-rebuy. This helps keep the weaker players (who otherwise might often be gone within an hour) from dropping out of the group, without encouraging BINGO play. That structure also reduces the perceived cost of playing—for whatever reason, a few players will balk at a $120 buy-in but readily buy in for $100 and then unhesitantly peel for the extra $20 add-on later. (Again, these tend to be the same players who are not very good at simple poker math, and make the game worth playing.)

 

[Taghkanic]

I’d just add: It sometimes strikes me that part of the purpose of chips is to help players forget that they are losing money. This is especially true of new players. They are much more willing to engage in gambling once their money has been converted to tokens. If they have to use actual money -- even if it is just change -- it has a different feeling. It’s another reason I prefer undenominated chips even for a cash game. (These also allow you to modify the stakes as needed.)

 

[Nex]

In my experience, it’s the opposite: Newbies prefer a tournament format and are more intimidated by cash.

Tournaments among newbies virtually guarantee that they’re going to get to play for a couple hours—as few novice players get it all in early, even with ridiculously good hands. More importantly, it gives them some sense of security that their potential losses feel “capped” (unless you are allowing unlimited rebuys, which I would not recommend). To the extent that the true main goal is socializing, with the chance of winning some money thrown in, making sure it is not a 20-minute miserable experience is important.

A tournament with an add-on at the first break also tends to allow even the sloppiest players to last long enough to feel they got some entertainment out of the night. I don’t allow full rebuys in tournaments I host, but I do have an add-on which you can take early if you bust before the break, as a sort of mini-rebuy. This helps keep the weaker players (who otherwise might often be gone within an hour) from dropping out of the group, without encouraging BINGO play. That structure also reduces the perceived cost of playing—for whatever reason, a few players will balk at a $120 buy-in but readily buy in for $100 and then unhesitantly peel for the extra $20 add-on later. (Again, these tend to be the same players who are not very good at simple poker math, and make the game worth playing.)

Thanks for the explanation. I will have a look at doing add-ons instead of full rebuys (especially as they will be free for this introductory first tournament) later down the road.

Offering unlimited rebuys was never something I'd want to do in a game with very weak players anyway - my personal ethics are flexible up to a certain degree, but this definitely would go past that point.

I can understand your players' reasoning for preferring $100 BI+$20 AO versus $120 BI though: At the time you decide whether or not to take the add-on, you have some more information about the game. Whereas a tournament buy-in is pretty much like a blind bet in cash game. You have no information about the game when you pay it. $100 is still a lot vs. a mere $20 for the add-on so it likely still doesn't make sense, but I'm talking about the basic idea behind it.

I’d just add: It sometimes strikes me that part of the purpose of chips is to help players forget that they are losing money. This is especially true of new players. They are much more willing to engage in gambling once their money has been converted to tokens. If they have to use actual money -- even if it is just change -- it has a different feeling. It’s another reason I prefer undenominated chips even for a cash game. (These also allow you to modify the stakes as needed.)

That's ages old gambling psychology wisdom I already knew about. Same thing they pull in today's computer games with a cash shop for random things - they won't directly tell you the price for each item in real-world currency, but only allow you to purchase pre-defined packages of in-game credits for a set amount of money, and tell you the price of the thing you want to buy in terms of those credits. The exchange rate is deliberately chosen to be a weird number so you cannot easily "convert" the credit cost to the actual cost.

I still wouldn't want to go denom-less on my chips though. For tournaments, you have other ways of achieving the same psychological effect. I'd avoid running a T500 tournament with a €5 buy-in or something like that. The farther apart the buy-in value and the chip amount is, the better. Dropping 15 bucks for a T50,000 tournament, I don't think anyone will attempt to "convert" what one tournament chip has cost them in real-world money.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I meant to post this earlier - a copy of our "cheat sheets" (hand rankings). The obverse side gets the blind structure.

 

[Nex]

If my chips are already denominated, would I really still want to put the color/denom listing on that cheat sheet?

Regarding the blind schedule, maybe I'll get the full listing as a poster (maybe A3 or so) to pin to the wall nearby. Most of the time people will only need to recall what blinds are active right now I guess, and an occasional twist of the head to check the poster for the road ahead won't be too much of a hassle I hope.

 

[Taghkanic]

I can understand your players' reasoning for preferring $100 BI+$20 AO versus $120 BI though: At the time you decide whether or not to take the add-on, you have some more information about the game.

For the most part, in my experience the only people who don’t take the add-ons in small stakes tourneys are bad players who have run ridiculously well and amassed a giant stack—thinking they don’t “need” the add-on (which typically at that stage might represent 5-10BB).

I’ll take the add-on even if I am a monstrous chip leader, unless somehow the price and blind structure is so weird that it stops making sense. If I’m way ahead, theoretically a decent portion of that add-on price will often come back to me when I cash, so it becomes a low-risk proposition. But letting other players narrow the chip gap even slightly while I stand pat would reduce my hopes of cashing more than, say, $20 bucks will in a $100 tourney.

But maybe that reasoning is off, and *I’m* the fish...

 

[Poker Zombie]

I’d just add: It sometimes strikes me that part of the purpose of chips is to help players forget that they are losing money. This is especially true of new players. They are much more willing to engage in gambling once their money has been converted to tokens. If they have to use actual money -- even if it is just change -- it has a different feeling. It’s another reason I prefer undenominated chips even for a cash game. (These also allow you to modify the stakes as needed.)

Funny story: In my earliest games, we used undenominated chips. Despite the obvious pain in having to verbally remind someone every game what each chip was worth (it was also on the giant blind timer and on the cheat sheet), players did their own connection to link a value to the chips.

The tournament was late, and while we started at 5/10 blinds, were now 500/1000. One player freaked out. "That's a mortgage payment!" Mrs Zombie and I laughed, but he did not. He was sweating. He would mutter how much it was every time he had to bet. We tried to reassure him it was just a $20 buy-in, but he never got comfortable. Despite being deep-stacked he tightened up tighter than any player I have ever seen, before or since. He was blinded out of the game.

He never played again.

Since then, I have never used the term "dollars" when describing a bet in a tournament. It felt fun to say "I raise you one-thousand dollars", but truth is, currency terms are just a bad idea for some people.

 

[Nex]

Yeah, my tournament chips have a dollar sign on them as well (not as bad playing with them here compared to in America I guess, but anyway) but that's merely due to the fact that their design is a close copy of real casino chips. I'd communicate that to the players too at the beginning.

And sure as hell I would never call a bet in "dollars" or any other currency in a tournament. I'd just say the number. Or maybe add "units".

 

[Poker Zombie]

If my chips are already denominated, would I really still want to put the color/denom listing on that cheat sheet?

It wouldn't be necessary, but I do it for 2 reasons:

• Not all players will have the largest denomination chip. So when it comes out during a color-up, they don't have any way of knowing what it is worth, without the printed card.
• It gives players an idea that there are more chips yet to come - what is on the table at the start isn't everything that will be used at the end (even though the value may be the same).

 

[Poker Zombie]

And sure as hell I would never call a bet in "dollars" or any other currency in a tournament. I'd just say the number. Or maybe add "units"

Like I said, we've learned from experience. That's just one of many mistakes made over the past 10+ years. Teaching new players flows like melted butter now, but I didn't have a great forum to draw information from (and I did get some bad advice from another forum to buy non-denominated chips).

That's why I am happy to pass on what I know - because others would probably make the same mistakes.

 

[Taghkanic]

I still kind of disagree on the denomination thing. Players generally get the hang of chip denominations much quicker than they do all the other mechanics of the game (assuming you don’t start with more than 4-5 colors).

Chip values is the easy part, and quickly becomes second nature... Getting newbies to remember to put out their blinds, shuffle when it is their turn, pay attention to the action, and understand the basic rules/etiquette of the game is way more challenging and annoying.

As far as posters... Can’t hurt. If I’m at an unfamiliar tournament, I’ll ask the host to take a smartphone pic of the blind structure sheet so I don’t have to wonder/ask. You could suggest that players do that rather than having to tack posters up all around the room.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I just put the blind structure on the back side of every hand ranking sheet. Now everyone has a copy.

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

@Mrs Poker Zombie teaches our "poker school", so she may be able to chime in with more wisdom on the pre-game crash course, but I do know that some time ago, she stopped allowing players to look at their cards during the crash course. Students immediately become preoccupied with "what they have". It's like giving a room full of students a toy, then expecting the teacher to be able to teach the class.

As for decks, I've always used 2-color decks. Everyone is familiar with a standard 2-color deck. I don't think there is any benefit to going to 4-color, unless visual acuity is a concern.

You may stun them initially with plastic cards, as they will be "slippery" (there will be comments), but everyone gets over it.

I see a lot of posts after this one. If you want what I cover in poker school, let me know and I'll take the time to post it.

The root is to ensure all players understand the mechanics, including properly cutting cards. You may laugh, but if they don't understand the goal of protecting the bottom card, you see a lot of poor deck cutting methods.

 

[Coyote]

@Mrs Poker Zombie
Please post your standard course when you have the time.
I think the admins should make it a sticky thread.

 

[Nex]

@Mrs Poker Zombie
Please post your standard course when you have the time.
I think the admins should make it a sticky thread.

This started out a bit chaotic to make for a good sticky thread, but nonetheless I'm absolutely for stickying an information dump thread on how to introduce newbies to poker. Not like "this is my way and this is the only way", but sort of a collection of various (and sometimes contradicting) advice with the explanation what reasons each particular piece of advice was given for - to enable a reader to mix and match what fits best for their case somewhat easily.

 

[Highli99]

I see a lot of posts after this one. If you want what I cover in poker school, let me know and I'll take the time to post it.

The root is to ensure all players understand the mechanics, including properly cutting cards. You may laugh, but if they don't understand the goal of protecting the bottom card, you see a lot of poor deck cutting methods.

I would love to see this!

 

[mrplacey]

I see a lot of posts after this one. If you want what I cover in poker school, let me know and I'll take the time to post it.

Hear hear!

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

FWIW, I used to host a monthly game w/ coworkers, only one of which knew what he was doing at a poker table. By the end, we were alternating between $20 rebuy tourney and $0.25/$0.50 cash game, but to start, everyone preferred the tournament. Everyone seemed to have a good time and got a good night's worth of poker with the following structure:

20 minute levels
$20 buy-in, rebuys until first break (4 levels)
Buy-in and rebuy = 600 chips
Each buy-in and rebuy came with $5 bounty
Optional add-on at first break for $10
Add-on = 300 chips
Blinds:
2-4
3-6
5-10
7-15 (nonstandard bb did confuse a few)
Break and color up 1s, rebuys end, add-on available.
10-20
15-30
20-40
30-60
Break and color up 5s
50-100
75-150
100-200
150-300
Break and color up 25s
200-400
300-600
500-1000

Usually didn't go past 150-300, if it did I probably would have skipped the break and not colored up 25s.

This structure was relatively deep and allowed bad beats to stick around for a decent amount of time.

I'd adjust to your desired buy-in. Mine was sized for a $50 max loss on the night (I didn't cap rebuys, but rarely did anyone buy more than 1). If your desired max loss is $10, go with $4/$4/$2. Also adjust to your chipset. Nobody ever seemed to mind the low numbers though.

 

[Mrs Poker Zombie]

@Mrs Poker Zombie
Please post your standard course when you have the time.
I think the admins should make it a sticky thread.

Sorry for the delay to post Poker School. Post-work is my relax time, not think and post time.

Here is what I do for Poker School. Obviously some steps can be skipped or skimmed depending on the the student. I try and put everyone through, just to ensure there are no assumptions.

1. Overview - We are playing No Limit Hold'Em, which is the best 5-card hand using the up-to-seven cards available between the board and the person's two cards. This could mean your best hand is the board, uses one of your cards, or uses two cards. Not every hand will go to a show down and we'll cover that as we proceed. Also, please do not look at your cards, we want to ensure everyone understand the flow and mechanics, not worry about what hand you might have.
2. Blinds - Before the hand starts, we need to post the blinds. If I'm the dealer, then the person to my left is the Small Blind and the person to their left is the Big Blind. Both of those players must put out chips, done before the deal. They do not get to wait for cards to decide. Since we are playing a tournament, the amount they must post will be set by the level. I show a sample structure (back of our cheat sheet card that printed wrong, therefore we cut it up for poker school - images below) which has the small and big blind. To ensure our tournament ends and everyone goes home , these will keep raising throughout the night. I show them a sample from the cheat sheet of chip colors and mention that same information will be on other monitors.
3. Bet Line - As part of posting bets, I show how far forward of the player and their cards to put their bets and clarify to never put them in the pot until all betting is complete. (Side note, do not make any change until the betting is complete).
4. Initial Deal - The Dealer will now deal two cards to each player, one at a time around the table, starting with the Small Blind, then a second time around the table. Yes, you do have to clarify this. There are games out there where the cards are dealt two at a time to players, just not this one. Remind them to not look at their cards.
5. Player Actions - Starting with the player after the Big Blind, each player in sequence decides to either Call the current bet (match it), Fold the hand (demonstrate where to toss the cards), or Raise the bet (initial raises are double the big blind up to all your chips, subsequent raises are by the amount of the last raise). Once that player acts, the next person has the same choices (I typically deal 5 hands and point to each spot as I talk). If you are unclear of an appropriate raise, indicate you want to raise and we'll make sure you know by how much you must raise.
6. Small Blind Choices - When we get around to the Small Blind, they already have chips in, but face the same decision, Call, Fold, or Raise. Please note, if you fold, you do not get to take back your chips, they go to the pot.
7. Big Blind Choices - The Big Blind has the same choices, but if all the players only called the big blind, they can Check to proceed and pay no more this round.
8. Further Betting - The betting could go around the table again. We keep going until all bets by players staying in the hand are the same. Move those chips to the center.
9. Flop - Assuming there are at least 2 still players in the hand, the dealer will burn one card (deal face down) and deal three face up.
10. Player Actions - The first player to the dealers left who still has cards makes a decision to Check (play for free) or Bet (always at least the amount of the Big Blind); there is no reason to fold, as it is currently free to play. Once they take their action, the player to their left who has cards can either Check (if no bet has been done ahead of them), Bet (again, if no betting ahead), Call (if bets have occurred), or Fold (if bets have occurred and they don't want to play the hand). Again, these choices could go around the table more than once.
11. Turn - Assuming there are at least 2 players in the hand, the dealer will burn one card (deal face down with the first burned card) and deal one face up.
12. Player Actions - repeat step 10. Yes, this may seem like overkill, but most people need to hear things several times before it starts to stay in memory and make sense.
13. River - Assuming there are at least 2 still players in the hand, the dealer will burn one card (deal face down with the other two burned cards) and deal one face up. There will be no more cards dealt.
14. Player Actions - repeat step 10. I'm usually getting head nods at this point.
15. Show Down and Hand Rankings - Assuming there are at least 2 players still in the hand, we will have a show down. I don't cover the order of showdown as that is an easier conversation at the table when it occurs. We still do not look at our cards, instead, we look at the other side of our cheat sheet that shows the hand rankings with color coding (image below). I walk from worst to best hand. Then I have a brief discussion about how you resolve it when two players have the "same" hand (i.e. they both have a flush) by comparing the cards high to low and that Aces are high in that case. I also ensure they understand a straight can be AKQJ10 or A2345, but not QKA23 (no wrap-around). The best hand gets the chips. If we do have a tie, they will be split.
16. Preparing for the Next Hand - In our house, we use two decks and shuffle behind. This works well, because the dealer is responsible for all discarded cards, therefore, at the end of the hand they have most of the cards already. The dealer will do a few things now.
    • Take the prepared deck from their right, put the cut card on the table, take some amount of cards from the deck and put them on top of the cut card (without exposing the new bottom card), and then put the rest of the deck on top (again, without exposing that bottom card). This is not Blackjack and you do not put the cut card somewhere in the middle to cut, you follow the process described.
    • That deck and the button are passed to the player on their left.
    • They will then ensure they have all the cards from the prior hand and start shuffling. When they feel they have done a good shuffle, they will lay the deck down between themselves and the player on their left with the cut card at a 90 degree angle on top (makes it easy to pick up the cut card).
17. Repeat - Now a new hand starts with the new dealer. All the steps are the same and if you have questions, let us know. Don't worry, I'll be at your table and will remind you of your actions as needed.

For true newbies, if they go through Poker School they get a Help Card (image below). This card is good for tonight only and can be used at any time. I typically remind them a few times during the night if they look like they could use the help (and they have a lot at risk).

This may look like a lot to cover, but at most this is 10 minutes. That is a worthy investment to put someone at ease when they are sitting down to play for their first time. Plus, a comfortable player will come back!

 

[DerberAlter]

by my own experience, I can tell, that even NL5 (0.05/0.05) is a lot of fun. we play this regulary and it gives all players in the room the possibilty to play the whole night, even if the loose stack by stack.