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KK on a super high level table! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Gunnar
- Start date
I don't love seeing the donk. Given the action, I'm not inclined to raise the flop donk. By doing so I think a lot of the time you polarize their range to pure bluffs and monsters. If he's trying to get max value from a set or even two pair, is this the line to take against what looks like a BTN steal, and a board you are very likely to c-bet into? He could be donking right now to steal the pot, juice it on a draw, and yes, with a flopped monster. The small raise relative to the straddle keeps 77+ in his range.
I prefer to call IP and keep my range wide open, too.
If you put him on a weaker hand - what are you hoping to accomplish by raising? You've got the overpair, position, a guy out of position building a big pot, and a dry-ish board. Do you want to end it now? Raising kind of turns your KK into a bluff against 99, TT, QQ, QT,KT hands you beat that they could be donking with, and gets exactly zero folds from the big hands he's donking for value with that beat you. 77, 88, JJ, T9*, AA*
As played, I'm folding to the jam. Sometimes you just gotta tip your cap to the insane bluff, if so.
*a less likely hand, but a consideration.
Another thought.... I realize the population in Iceland is small and table selection may not be a luxury you can take advantage of, but that looks like a tough game (especially so deep) with really only one mark.
I prefer to call IP and keep my range wide open, too.
If you put him on a weaker hand - what are you hoping to accomplish by raising? You've got the overpair, position, a guy out of position building a big pot, and a dry-ish board. Do you want to end it now? Raising kind of turns your KK into a bluff against 99, TT, QQ, QT,KT hands you beat that they could be donking with, and gets exactly zero folds from the big hands he's donking for value with that beat you. 77, 88, JJ, T9*, AA*
As played, I'm folding to the jam. Sometimes you just gotta tip your cap to the insane bluff, if so.
*a less likely hand, but a consideration.
Another thought.... I realize the population in Iceland is small and table selection may not be a luxury you can take advantage of, but that looks like a tough game (especially so deep) with really only one mark.
So lets take it together.
I know this is a stronger table than I would normally seek out to sit on but lately I have been doing good playing on this level and have learned a lot in my game. This night was ofcourse extra strong table and a really fun game and a lot of thinking hands and hard choices all over.
This thread has shown me a lot of info of how I could have played this hand differently. I love all this info from you guys.
When facing this all-in bet I thought to myself that he wanted a fold. If he had a set or AA then it makes more sense to call and check turn to let me bet and hide the card strength. I tanked for a moment and called.
He showed me
so a pair of 8s
He asked me if I wanted to run it three times and I said no.
Turn
River
Ofcourse
I know this is a stronger table than I would normally seek out to sit on but lately I have been doing good playing on this level and have learned a lot in my game. This night was ofcourse extra strong table and a really fun game and a lot of thinking hands and hard choices all over.
This thread has shown me a lot of info of how I could have played this hand differently. I love all this info from you guys.
When facing this all-in bet I thought to myself that he wanted a fold. If he had a set or AA then it makes more sense to call and check turn to let me bet and hide the card strength. I tanked for a moment and called.
He showed me
so a pair of 8s
He asked me if I wanted to run it three times and I said no.
Turn
River
Ofcourse
Jimulacrum
Full House
Wow, pretty surprising outcome there.
I'm having a hard time resolving the description "Skilled LAG" with a guy who posts a 10x UTG straddle, defends it with 48s, and then gets 800BB of his 900BB stack in the pot with a certainly beaten middle pair. Sure, there's a lot of room to "play poker" with very deep stacks, but this guy put 160,000 in the pot for no real reason in a very silly spot (not to mention that he un-deepened the deep stacks with his straddle). It's something you'd expect from an unhinged drunk on tilt, not a skilled player.
Condolences on the awful river, BTW.
I'm having a hard time resolving the description "Skilled LAG" with a guy who posts a 10x UTG straddle, defends it with 48s, and then gets 800BB of his 900BB stack in the pot with a certainly beaten middle pair. Sure, there's a lot of room to "play poker" with very deep stacks, but this guy put 160,000 in the pot for no real reason in a very silly spot (not to mention that he un-deepened the deep stacks with his straddle). It's something you'd expect from an unhinged drunk on tilt, not a skilled player.
Condolences on the awful river, BTW.
He likes to fatten the pot that is why he straddles. I guess he thought he had a read on me and could bully me out
Jimulacrum
Full House
I'm not a vehement anti-straddler or anything. I have a weekly home game where I post a (standard, 2x) UTG straddle on just about every orbit. It may or may not be profitable long-term, but based on my experience with that game, it's a small difference either way. I have other games where I straddle just to stimulate action and because it's part of the game culture, with full awareness that it's a small leak.
But a 10x UTG straddle? No way someone who does that with any regularity is long-term profitable.
Chris La Mantia
Pair
I have pretty limited experience with unlimited straddle games like this, but from what I have seen, this isn’t surprising. These giant straddle hands often turn into a pissing match with slim holdings on both sides.
I like tournaments.
Chris La Mantia
Pair
Any time someone says "straddle" I'm on the edge of leaving the game.
DrStrange
4 of a Kind
When I see big straddles, my internal cash register does the happy dance. Letting me play a short stack strategy with what would often be considered deep stacks is basically printing money. It might seem like high variance, but really hero is almost assured of getting his stack in good. 84s vs KK isn’t a fair fight - - - just my kind of hand.
Leave the game? That is silly talk if you have any business sitting in this type of game at all.
Leave the game? That is silly talk if you have any business sitting in this type of game at all.
I was hosting a .25/.50 game without any formal straddle restrictions. One of my buddies, who loves action, said "straddle" and rolled four $5's off his sizable stack. There were some exclamations and he said "whoops, I meant to bet $4. whatever, I'm fine with it either way." We talked it out, and the table agreed that he was straddling for $4, with me being the only one in favor of it being a $20 straddle. I wasn't being a jerk, I was 90% sure he'd intended a $20 straddle, and 100% sure he truly didn't care if we held him to it. What surprised me was that I was the only guy at that table who liked the idea of taking a look at my cards first, then deciding if I wanted to get involved in an 80bb straddle hand.
colter ripton
Full House
Yeah........... I love playing in games with big straddles and alot of action. They are the kind of games that I actively seek out.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
:At my house, I would have ruled it was a $20 straddle, not taken a vote, but I understand why you did it that way.
Did anyone wake up with a hand?
Steve Birrer
Two Pair
I too would have made it a $20 straddle. People need to learn to play correctly. My home game is pretty casual from the banter and chit chat perspective. But I insist that play be done correctly.
Jimulacrum
Full House
It's not often that I see single massive straddles.
More often, I'll see a series of 2x straddles wrap around the table. IIRC, with $0.25/$0.50 blinds, I've seen it get as big as $1/$2/$4/$8/$16/$32/$64 once or twice. (Yes, with the blinds re-straddling.) Usually it doesn't get any bigger than $2 or $4, maybe $8, but when the planets line up just right, we can goad everyone into it.
It's pretty hilarious because it turns a nosebleed-stack game into a mega-shortstack game. It's basically shove-or-fold for everyone. Makes playing KK really easy, thankfully, and I managed to find myself in that exact spot once. Shove-fold-fold-fold-fold-fold-fold. Cha-ching, 256 BB.
More often, I'll see a series of 2x straddles wrap around the table. IIRC, with $0.25/$0.50 blinds, I've seen it get as big as $1/$2/$4/$8/$16/$32/$64 once or twice. (Yes, with the blinds re-straddling.) Usually it doesn't get any bigger than $2 or $4, maybe $8, but when the planets line up just right, we can goad everyone into it.
It's pretty hilarious because it turns a nosebleed-stack game into a mega-shortstack game. It's basically shove-or-fold for everyone. Makes playing KK really easy, thankfully, and I managed to find myself in that exact spot once. Shove-fold-fold-fold-fold-fold-fold. Cha-ching, 256 BB.
I don’t recall, so probably not.
At my house, I would have ruled it was a $20 straddle, not taken a vote, but I understand why you did it that way.
Did anyone wake up with a hand?
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Tough river @Gunnar.
From the flop I really had two lines of thought.
1) Call, If you call you probably are calling all 3 streets on a clean runout (anything that's not a straight or an ace). Which makes this a tough line, but I think you are giving away too much if you fold kk to a donk bet
2) Raise for value/protection.
If you do this I think you need to shove. You don't want to offer the dry Tx or 9x hands a price. The problem with the shove is it sucks if Villian will fold AJ, then you are only getting called when beat. (But I might not assume a guy that's bloating pots like this is looking to make a lay down.)
So I think I would've taken line 1 myself. But after seeing the result (stacking off on an 8 here), the shove line seems much better against this opponent.
On an aside why not lower the variance and run it 3 times like he asked?
From the flop I really had two lines of thought.
1) Call, If you call you probably are calling all 3 streets on a clean runout (anything that's not a straight or an ace). Which makes this a tough line, but I think you are giving away too much if you fold kk to a donk bet
2) Raise for value/protection.
If you do this I think you need to shove. You don't want to offer the dry Tx or 9x hands a price. The problem with the shove is it sucks if Villian will fold AJ, then you are only getting called when beat. (But I might not assume a guy that's bloating pots like this is looking to make a lay down.)
So I think I would've taken line 1 myself. But after seeing the result (stacking off on an 8 here), the shove line seems much better against this opponent.
On an aside why not lower the variance and run it 3 times like he asked?
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I would have run it 3 times, hell, 5 times if you could have!!! The more times you you run it the better when you are so far ahead. The more equity you can realize the better.
Jimulacrum
Full House
Agreed. I love running it more than once when ahead and semi-vulnerable.
Running it multiple times doesn’t change the EV, just the variance. If you can take the swings, always run it once with people who count on running it multiple times after acting like a bully if you want to curb the behavior. Or run it multiple times to keep them putting in too much money too lightly.
Also, can you explain something? I did the math. This is a .90/1.80 game in US value, and you’re sitting on roughly $1500. Is this “super high level” there? That’s the smallest game in a public room in the US. Did I do the conversion wrong?
Jimulacrum
Full House
It may be around $1/$2, but with $1,500-ish stacks, that's bigger than some $2/$5 games (and may well require more skill to navigate, with stacks so deep).
I 100% agree this is super deep and possibly terrifying, I was just trying to get a sense of the games there. No judgement intended. His answer was exactly what I was looking for.
Anthony Martino
Royal Flush
good grief that's nuts. I had a crazy Asian yesterday on my right, super station, he would call EVERYTHING.
Playing a 20k guaranteed and he almost busted me early, EP raises, he calls, I fold 33 and the flop comes A34 and he called a raise with 25 offsuit which I totally would've stacked off to. instead a guy with A8 hits an 8 on the turn and stacks off to him.
Then the guy makes two pair by calling pre with KT and Q5 off, plays 84 and flops two pair and rivers the boat, calls two all-ins with KQ suited because it's his favorite hand and he's up against AK and AK suited and rivers the Q to bust them both. Another three way all-in with AK vs AK vs AQ and he almost called with Q5 off again but folded, the AQ flops a Queen but a 5 on the river means he would've busted all three of them had he played.
Plays 93 against a preflop raiser who holds AK, flop is AT3 and he chases to the river and spikes the miracle 3 to bust another guy. He just couldn't miss.
And the one time in a million he actually raises (which should set off alarm bells to anyone paying attention) this old lady spazes with pocket 9's on a Ten-high flop and stacks off to his Queens.
I eventually made my stand UTG with A9 offsuit when it was his BB and I shoved 10 bb's and he said "I'll be the donkey who doubles you up" and called with 45 suited and the flop was K45 and that was it for me.
When the average stack was 75K this dude was sitting on over half a million, I've never seen anyone run so hot in my life with a VP$iP of 1,000%
Playing a 20k guaranteed and he almost busted me early, EP raises, he calls, I fold 33 and the flop comes A34 and he called a raise with 25 offsuit which I totally would've stacked off to. instead a guy with A8 hits an 8 on the turn and stacks off to him.
Then the guy makes two pair by calling pre with KT and Q5 off, plays 84 and flops two pair and rivers the boat, calls two all-ins with KQ suited because it's his favorite hand and he's up against AK and AK suited and rivers the Q to bust them both. Another three way all-in with AK vs AK vs AQ and he almost called with Q5 off again but folded, the AQ flops a Queen but a 5 on the river means he would've busted all three of them had he played.
Plays 93 against a preflop raiser who holds AK, flop is AT3 and he chases to the river and spikes the miracle 3 to bust another guy. He just couldn't miss.
And the one time in a million he actually raises (which should set off alarm bells to anyone paying attention) this old lady spazes with pocket 9's on a Ten-high flop and stacks off to his Queens.
I eventually made my stand UTG with A9 offsuit when it was his BB and I shoved 10 bb's and he said "I'll be the donkey who doubles you up" and called with 45 suited and the flop was K45 and that was it for me.
When the average stack was 75K this dude was sitting on over half a million, I've never seen anyone run so hot in my life with a VP$iP of 1,000%
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