Looking for Partners on Texas Poker Club (10 Viewers)

[Taghkanic]

Grinders tend to carry chips in satchels so they don't have to waste time waiting in lines or tip constantly

There's also the issue of players selling chips at the table to a player that recently busted.

Maybe the selling player is ending their session and someone offers to buy chips off them

Now your win vs loss numbers are getting skewed

The dealers and room would have to have rules and procedures to prevent all that.

Grinders who carry chips out to avoid the cage are not seated next time until they cash in their previous winnings. No buying chips from other players on or off the table. Players racking up for more than one buyin get tokens/vouchers only redeemable at the cage. etc. Penalties for violations.

Any system is going to have flaws/downsides which players try to game, and the room has to manage (e.g. all thr problems mentioned with timed payments).

 

[BGinGA]

Frankly, all of this yakety-yak is sorta killing that feel-good vibe.

Bergs might be right; a reasonable and mostly-unnoticed per-hand rake may be necessary to create the atmosphere wanted, which is not currently legal in Texas.

 

[Rakrul]

I have never played poker at a place with the per hour charge instead of raking the pots. And I don’t really frequent any poker room/casino so not sure how relevant/correct this is but fwiw:

Let’s say I play $1/2 (the highest stakes where I would be able to comfortably bring and risk a few buy-ins). How many hands does one get in playing live with a dealer? 25? If so, 4 hours to get 100 hands, and no matter how I fare in the game I’d have to pay the house $40. That means my winrate needs to be on average 10 big bets per 100 hands just to break even. At least playing online, that’d be pretty hard to maintain, not to mention getting a decent win on top.

Maybe I’m comparing apples and oranges but I wouldn’t stand in line for that game. Probably has to be $2/5+ to make it worth while.

I know it can be difficult to beat the rake at low limits as well, depending on rake structure. Your rec player target group probably doesn’t evaluate a game on the terms above but the math (that you might be losing even if you’re winning) is way easier to follow than that of the rake one.

It's much easier to have a winrate over 10bb/100 live because the player pool is so much worse than online. "I didn't come all this way to fold!" and you get so few hands so there's no such thing as professional low limit player. The lower the stakes, the worse the player pool is and the higher the rake is. That's pretty much in all casinos. King's Resort in Czech Republic has 5%, 10BB cap. 7.5bb is also common in Europe. Paris has 2% uncapped(!).

 

[Anthony Martino]

Frankly, all of this yakety-yak is sorta killing that feel-good vibe.

Bergs might be right; a reasonable and mostly-unnoticed per-hand rake may be necessary to create the atmosphere wanted, which is not currently legal in Texas.

My perspective is that The Lodge has made postpay their norm.

To compete in the market you need to meet or exceed your competitions service.

Post-pay is the least disruptive to games and requires less staff to handle.

Players can pay the next time they return to the club, allowing them time to calm down after a beat.

I appreciate all the effort everyone is devoting to help, but it feels like we're over complicating procedures.

Not to mention, members of PCF are more aware of their winrates, recreational players don't process it the way all of you do.

Would I prefer to be able to rake pots? Sure, it's less noticed and more profitable.

But given the framework we have now, I think post-pay is going to be the best path forward.

You can still offer special rates for certain games/limits, or during certain days/hours to make them more attractive.

I'd rather make less per table, but have more games running, then the opposite.

When people check Poker Atlas they need to see games running.

Poker House has tried implementing high hands, bbj, flush frenzy, etc and they still struggle with 1-2 games per day.

They got a gift since The Lodge was closed July 4th and then on the 5th they shut down for the guy who passed. They had 5-10 tables going those days, cash and tourney

Then Saturday, The Lodge was open and Poker House was back to 1-2 games.

I don't want to offer all these gimicks. I want to offer better value in tougher financial times, better service and a friendlier vibe.

Will we still get misregs? Of course. But local advertising and outreach, and games structured to not give additional edges to the grinders, will go a long way towards combating this

 

[Eriks]

It's much easier to have a winrate over 10bb/100 live because the player pool is so much worse than online. "I didn't come all this way to fold!" and you get so few hands so there's no such thing as professional low limit player. The lower the stakes, the worse the player pool is and the higher the rake is. That's pretty much in all casinos. King's Resort in Czech Republic has 5%, 10BB cap. 7.5bb is also common in Europe. Paris has 2% uncapped(!).

Yeah, I know it’s not really comparable but still a decent chunk to give up at those stakes. Regular rake is ridiculous as well, it’s why I almost never play. I do think it would suck immensely to pay up for time on top of a losing session. Especially if you’re rec player.

The casino in Stockholm rakes 10% with a SEK 100 cap at NL 10/10 and 5% still with a SEK 100 cap at NL 25/25 ($1/1 and $2.5/2.5). They do on the other hand allow 300bb buy-ins so that’s something at least.

 

[Taghkanic]

I would hate playing on the equivalent of a parking meter.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I would hate playing on the equivalent of a parking meter.

Well it's the option in TX unless you risk home games or clubs illegally raking

And raking is taking a lot more $$$ off the tables than the timed model

I know in Tampa they were taking up to $6 rake plus $2 jackpot drop per hand.

And home games I've heard some crazy uncapped rake amounts

 

[Rakrul]

You guys seem to ignore that Texans doesn't have a choice here (apart from home games), so they're used to it. While I can see that new players, which is being targeted here, might not like it - they have to be understanding of the law. Ideally they'll vote so it's removed.

 

[Taghkanic]

Well it's the option in TX unless you risk home games or clubs illegally raking

And raking is taking a lot more $$$ off the tables than the timed model

I know in Tampa they were taking up to $6 rake plus $2 jackpot drop per hand.

And home games I've heard some crazy uncapped rake amounts

I’m not trying to argue that other forms of rake are necessarily fair.

Just that the feeling of being on the clock isn’t very conducive to people relaxing and staying for long sessions. It would be burning a slow hole in the back of my mind the whole time… even if the cost were equivalent.

Plus the room has to keep a ton of data on your play time and make you pony it up as you go. Would feel crappy to me.

I’d continue to brainstorm options. Regs might settle in easier if they bought chunks of time as a membership for the week or month (20 hours for $195)? With some perks built in to encourage play, maybe.

But I still almost prefer the idea of just paying a percentage at the cage. Buy in for $300, pay $15 commission, and forget the clock. Cash out for $1K, pay 5% on your winnings (.05 x 700 = $38). Losing session? No more fees. The person who took your money pays that in effect.

Just thinking out loud… There must be better ways.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I’m not trying to argue that other forms of rake are necessarily fair.

Just that the feeling of being on the clock isn’t very conducive to people relaxing and staying for long sessions. It would be burning a slow hole in the back of my mind the whole time… even if the cost were equivalent.

Plus the room has to keep a ton of data on your play time and make you pony it up as you go. Would feel crappy to me.

I’d continue to brainstorm options. Regs might settle in easier if they bought chunks of time as a membership for the week or month (20 hours for $195)? With some perks built in to encourage play, maybe.

But I still almost prefer the idea of just paying a percentage at the cage. Buy in for $300, pay $15 commission, and forget the clock. Cash out for $1K, pay 5% on your winnings (.05 x 700 = $38). Losing session? No more fees. The person who took your money pays that in effect.

Just thinking out loud… There must be better ways.

The percentage option is difficult to track and prone to people finding ways to abuse the system and avoid paying their share.

 

[BarrieJ3]

Plenty of comments overall, but seems like a lot of under/over engineered solutions.

Why can’t there just be a players card like at casinos. Sit down, hand it over, it gets swiped. When you’re done, it gets swiped again and returned. All cards must maintain a minimum of “xyz” hours and/or auto balance top up.

Boom.

 

[FestiveKnight]

The percentage option is difficult to track and prone to people finding ways to abuse the system and avoid paying their share.

Just try to limit players selling to each other and you solve that? And if a CRM tracks how many chips each person buys then you know when they try to cash out chips they bought off a player rather than the cage and you take a higher cut out of it.

I’m not sure this solution helps your plan but it doesn’t seem that difficult

 

[Anthony Martino]

Plenty of comments overall, but seems like a lot of under/over engineered solutions.

Why can’t there just be a players card like at casinos. Sit down, hand it over, it gets swiped. When you’re done, it gets swiped again and returned. All cards must maintain a minimum of “xyz” hours and/or auto balance top up.

Boom.

If you're goung to make people load time on a players card, it's the same as having someone pay time at the front and have their status appear on the atlas tablets at the table (green good on time, yellow and orange running low, red out of time)

You're just adding additional steps and equipment to the process by having player cards being swiped

Just try to limit players selling to each other and you solve that? And if a CRM tracks how many chips each person buys then you know when they try to cash out chips they bought off a player rather than the cage and you take a higher cut out of it.

I’m not sure this solution helps your plan but it doesn’t seem that difficult

How do you propose in a 30+ table room to have players constantly monitored to stop them from selling chips?

They can do it outside the room as well and avoid paying any time.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I’m not trying to argue that other forms of rake are necessarily fair.

Just that the feeling of being on the clock isn’t very conducive to people relaxing and staying for long sessions. It would be burning a slow hole in the back of my mind the whole time… even if the cost were equivalent.

Plus the room has to keep a ton of data on your play time and make you pony it up as you go. Would feel crappy to me.

I’d continue to brainstorm options. Regs might settle in easier if they bought chunks of time as a membership for the week or month (20 hours for $195)? With some perks built in to encourage play, maybe.

But I still almost prefer the idea of just paying a percentage at the cage. Buy in for $300, pay $15 commission, and forget the clock. Cash out for $1K, pay 5% on your winnings (.05 x 700 = $38). Losing session? No more fees. The person who took your money pays that in effect.

Just thinking out loud… There must be better ways.

What about regular time rake? Where every new dealer down, the dealer takes x amount from each player? They do this at Maryland Live for the non holdem games

 

[Anthony Martino]

What about regular time rake? Where every new dealer down, the dealer takes x amount from each player? They do this at Maryland Live for the non holdem games

Now you're adding more on to the dealers plate to track players who went to the ATM to reload

Or someone joins the table after time was collected (or busts right after paying time and wants their time refunded, etc)

You can have dealets collect when they notice someone low in time on the tablet

But ppayers propensity to just pay an hour at a time, the delay for the dealer to collect it, then a brush to bring it to the front desk, the front desk to process it, and then that updated payment appearing on the tablet makes it labor intensive and inefficient where you are bugging someone soon after to pay another hour.

 

[Geremie]

Plenty of comments overall, but seems like a lot of under/over engineered solutions.

Why can’t there just be a players card like at casinos. Sit down, hand it over, it gets swiped. When you’re done, it gets swiped again and returned. All cards must maintain a minimum of “xyz” hours and/or auto balance top up.

Boom.

And the more hours you buy the cheaper it is per hour

1-5 hours - $12/hour
5-15 - $11/ hour
15-30 - $10/hour
30-60 - $9.50/hour

Got to create that hook and incentive

 

[Frogzilla]

Since time rake might be illegal, I think it’s to your advantage to do it exactly like everyone else in your area is doing it

 

[upNdown]

FWIW, I could totally see myself paying $10 per hour to play .25/.50. It’s not about profits, it’s about having fun playing good poker at stakes that aren’t uncomfortable.

 

[Anthony Martino]

And the more hours you buy the cheaper it is per hour

1-5 hours - $12/hour
5-15 - $11/ hour
15-30 - $10/hour
30-60 - $9.50/hour

Got to create that hook and incentive

So some rooms do offer bulk purchases of time where you get a discount on it. I think overall that's more likely to be something that grinders are going to take advantage of, rather than your recreational player pool.

Overall my approach would be to come into market already offering value compared with the competition as far as hourly seat rental fees as well as tournament fees. I want to be seen as the "good guys" who aren't trying to rake people over the coals and squeeze every last ounce of profit out of them.

I get why rooms offer low buyin tournaments with large guarantees and 24 day 1 flights, but I absolutely hate that model and I think structuring tournaments so that when you cash you actually show a profit, rather than being 3-5 bullets deep and you're still losing money is the way I'd want to go.

I'd want more freezeouts, single re-entry and my return of the drawing dead concept with three lives for one fee. You're leveling the playing field, giving the recreational players a chance, and you're going to get that tournament over with a lot more quickly than if you're running unlimited re-entry for 4 hours and multi-day multi-bag events.

Not to mention, most dealers aren't big fans of these lengthy tournaments, as they are taking a pretty hefty paycut dealing them compared with cash games. My approach to pay 15-20% of the field rather than 10-12% means you're going to spread money more evenly in your poker economy, with players more likely to now take their cashes and recirculate it back into a cash game or another event.

Doug Polk and company make money hand-over-fist in most of their tournaments (although they've taken some baths on guarantees as well). But I really feel there are a lot of players out there who are tired of the endless unlimited re-entry events, they're just the silent majority who don't speak up, no one is advocating for them and they're dealing with room operators who want to collect as many fees as possible and grinders who want to give themselves additional edges in being able to fire more bullets than the average player.

Since time rake might be illegal, I think it’s to your advantage to do it exactly like everyone else in your area is doing it

There are some attorneys in the area who are versed in gaming laws here in TX that I'd utilize to ensure whatever we do is within the scope of the current laws.

There are rooms out there opting to step over those lines and put themselves at risk (mostly in Houston from what I've heard), and I don't think it's worth it for a business that can make multiple millions of dollars each year to put their owners, stakeholders, staff and patrons in harms way.

 

[BGinGA]

Dunno, sounds like you've got it all figured out, and don't need any help from anybody.... except financially.

Thannks, but I'll pass.

 

[CraigT78]

Dunno, sounds like you've got it all figured out, and don't need any help from anybody.... except financially.

Thannks, but I'll pass.

If you're offering....I could use some help to refinish my poker room!

 

[BarrieJ3]

Yeah the discussions and strategy are all fun, but $ is a bit more difficult.

Despite people saying that $ is out there, it is - but I don’t see it in neither angel investment nor VC - which obviously this wouldn’t even qualify for something like VC. I’d guess looking at mostly unaccredited type investors.

And even then, probably not even that and only angel investment. There’s no real significant differentiator, no product, etc. And instead investing in a person/team, who despite may know exactly what is needed, doesn’t have any mgmt/ownership experience and successful exit or startup before this.

Honestly before looking for investment (if that’s what this is), I’d be looking for a partner who has connections, potentially capital, and more importantly something behind their name/history. Even then this is going to be super difficult.

A local club with small total addressable market where a focal point is user/public education (one of the hardest things to do for any product/provider) = big uphill battle.

I do wish best of luck, and for all the naysayers out there I’d say it’s been cool to watch your career and at the very least you’re enjoying providing through poker instead of a typical 9-5. So while I only see the red flags from a business perspective, I do hope you prove us all wrong!

Edit to say then there’s the stupid grey zone for legality and the strategy, while seemingly sound, of burning capital fast upfront. I’ve seen the number of $1 mill thrown around and just don’t see how that’s possible unless it’s backed by something like loan/debt options alongside it. Granted, I have ZERO insight into what it takes to run a room, but isn’t a gm or room manager going to make somewhere in a 70-6 figure+ range? I mean heck, just the legal fees to properly take on investment and incorporation will put you in the 5 figures range. I just can’t quite see how 1 Mill keeps the room in good standing and room to breathe.

 

[bergs]

Gonna be tough to get investment dollars when poker isn’t even 100% legal in Texas. This’d be interesting somewhere else but not there. Just too many factors that can’t be effectively mitigated.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Honestly before looking for investment (if that’s what this is), I’d be looking for a partner who has connections, potentially capital, and more importantly something behind their name/history. Even then this is going to be super difficult.

I do have some potential partners with experience in the industry that I'm in talks with (one runs a dealer training school, one runs a company that supplies tables, chairs, chips, etc. and another has worked for some pretty large casinos in the poker space and has experience in the traveling tournament market as well)

I recognize that I alone don't have the skillset to do this alone and need partners that can fill in with experience I lack.

Gonna be tough to get investment dollars when poker isn’t even 100% legal in Texas. This’d be interesting somewhere else but not there. Just too many factors that can’t be effectively mitigated.

Poker Clubs have been here since 2015 so closing in on a decade at this point. The Lodge just bought Rounders in San Antonio and is expanding it to a much larger facility, TCH Austin is going to be moving into a space that will 4x their existing table space and add a restaurant/bar as well.

Are there risks? Of course, there are with any business. But I can't imagine big players like The Lodge and TCH are expanding without considering the risks and potential for business in these markets.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Dunno, sounds like you've got it all figured out, and don't need any help from anybody

The only thing I've been disagreeing with is everyone's attempts to make time collection far more labor-intensive and cumbersome than it needs to be.

Trying to track someones buy-ins at the cage, at the table, from other players, etc. in a 30-table room and then charge them based on what they cash out at the cage is rife with problems that I've pointed out.

The least disruptive model is the one The Lodge uses with post-pay and obviously they've found great success with this approach. Players don't like employees constantly tapping them on the shoulder to collect time and dealers hate having to prompt players to pony up when they run low.

So I'd choose the path of least resistance that has proven itself in this market to work, where there's one transaction at the front desk during a session rather than multiple smaller transactions that could result in time being misapplied to the wrong players account (having worked at Poker House there were instances where a dealer would show up and drop off payment for five players and they'd be like "one hour for seats 3, 4 and 8, then $5 for seat 7, and $7 for seat 5".

Meanwhile the front desk is dealing with checking players in, getting them seats in games, calling players for open seats or transfers. So sometimes that time money that gets dumped off quickly by a dealer is going to sit there unprocessed while the front desk is handling other tasks.

Now the member at the table is being bothered for time that they JUST paid because the dealers have switched downs and the new dealer doesn't know time was collected and it hasn't updated on the tablet at the table yet.

Too many moving parts, I'm a big fan of K.I.S.S. Streamline processes and make them less likely to result in mistakes being made or additional stress to your paying customers or your staff.

 

[BGinGA]

It's hard -- if not impossible -- to build a better mousetrap when one has totally convinced themselves that their design is already best.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[Anthony Martino]

It's hard -- if not impossible -- to build a better mousetrap when one has totally convinced themselves that their design is already best.

That's all I'm saying.

That's fair. But I believe I've pointed out the issues with time collection that everyone was recommending and it's not even my mouse trap, it's The Lodges, and they're the largest, most successful club in the entire state.

While I don't agree with every aspect of Dougs business, the fact is that this has become the most popular model in the Austin market and The Lodge regularly crushes other rooms as far as traffic is concerned.

There are other reasons why this is besides just the time collection, but it's certainly something that does have an impact. There was a LOT of grumbling from players and staff when I worked at Poker House regarding the time collection they utilized.

 

[Taghkanic]

The Lodge regularly crushes other rooms as far as traffic is concerned.

Is this because of their amazing fee structure… or because Doug Polk is a super-famous player with a big podcast audience, headlining a venue whose games are on teevee?

(Ex.: I know a whale who of course went to play at The Lodge when he was there on business. He went because he had seen the stream games. Otherwise he’d never have known about it or wanted to check it out.)

 

[Rakrul]

I think once you achieve critical mass, you're good. People knows there's always action there and from there you get your clients to do your advertising for you. If people knows there's a lot of fish and recs at room x, others will come as well. It's kind of like getting girls into a bar. Once you have them there, the guys will follow even though pink cowboy hats are mandatory.

Doug probably attracts more whales than others, but it's a limited market with few benefits as they basically bring in the same rake/hourly as the low stakes tables does. It gives them a boost to their poker room ego I guess.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Is this because of their amazing fee structure… or because Doug Polk is a super-famous player with a big podcast audience, headlining a venue whose games are on teevee?

(Ex.: I know a whale who of course went to play at The Lodge when he was there on business. He went because he had seen the stream games. Otherwise he’d never have known about it or wanted to check it out.)

Pretty sure it's because Doug, Brad and Andrew leveraged their popularity on Youtube to host meetup games and gain their critical mass that way.

And they have killed it in the livestream market, which is difficult to do.

But I still believe the structure of their cash and tournaments have negatively effected their player pool, which has shifted to be grinder heavy because their audiences tend to be more serious players and they aren't reaching or protecting local recs

At the end of the day, if you have more games running, you'll attract more games