Metagame of Running-It-Twice (1 Viewer)

[Leonard]

Obviously, running it twice (RIT) has no net change on EV in the long run if we ignore the significance of any dead cards (whatever that might be) and acts to reduce variance. However, I wonder if being known to RIT has a significant effect on opposing players and how they play. Does it make them more likely to call with a draw? Does refusing to RIT induce tilt?

This comes up because last night I played in a different game than usual. In this game the players frequently RIT (run it twice) as opposed to my usual game where we never RIT. The hand that got me a little irritated was not a true RIT. I had a weak flush and bet $40 on the turn (with $200+ behind) and the other player asked to run it twice. I was confused by the request because we were not all-in. Anyway, I ended up agreeing and on the second river a four flush hit and we split the pot when he showed the ace for the nut flush. In essence, the other player was asking me to check it down and RIT. I've got that aspect figured out - I'm not going to do it again.

So, I've been thinking about the hand, and RIT. I'm inclined to think that in a pure metagame sense, you are likely better to be known as never running it twice. I know the New England guys frequently RIT and thus have much more experience with it than I do. I'm interested in hearing different opinions.

 

[trever]

If everyone knows that you always run it twice, they're more likely to call your bet with a draw than if you never run it twice (because they'll have 2 chances to hit). Make a huge river bluff once in your life and it won't matter, because everyone will call you every time, always.

 

[bergs]

It's not that cut and dry. I think if you generally play tight, you probably get looked up less RIT, but then again if you play tight you probably just want to run it once and accept the variance because you're usually getting it in ahead or with dominating draws.

I play extremely LAGgy. I'm going to get looked up a lot if I RIT or once, so I run it twice to reduce my variance a little bit.

 

[bergs]

Also, I don't mind if players only run it once. I'd prefer that players were consistent and either ran it once or twice throughout a single session, but it's not tilting if you don't. I really only expect one other player that I regularly play with to always run it twice.

Also, a lot of guys don't run it twice in split pot games. Too much math.

 

[bergs]

If everyone knows that you always run it twice, they're more likely to call your bet with a draw than if you never run it twice (because they'll have 2 chances to hit). Make a huge river bluff once in your life and it won't matter, because everyone will call you every time, always.

Wait, how does someone call the river with a draw?

 

[Mr Tree]

Wait, how does someone call the river with a draw?

That's a leak that has plagued my game [emoji41]

 

[manamongkids]

I feel like a lot of players who don't play a lot of home game poker forget running it twice is generally acceptable.

I'm usually game dependent, I like to run twice in omaha variants and Run it once in holdem

 

[DrStrange]

As a player, I am willing to go along with running it twice. I want to do everything I can to keep losing players happy and if running it twice does that - fine.

As a host, I strongly discourage the practice because it slows down the game and opens a new avenue for friction and misunderstandings between players. That means as host and a player in a hand, I wouldn't even discuss running something twice because that opens the door to wider use.

DrStrange

 

[Payback]

As a player, I am willing to go along with running it twice. I want to do everything I can to keep losing players happy and if running it twice does that - fine.

As a host, I strongly discourage the practice because it slows down the game and opens a new avenue for friction and misunderstandings between players. That means as host and a player in a hand, I wouldn't even discuss running something twice because that opens the door to wider use.

DrStrange

As a host I actually prefer if players run it twice as it keeps more players in the game longer. I don't mind a little bit of the slow down for that benefit. A lot of my group runs it twice and some will run it three times in non split pot games so there is a bit of "blood".

 

[lherron]

Gamer side of me wants to run everything twice (or more) to reward the best hand more consistently. Degen side of me loves the action. Poker side of me realizes it is a tool at the poker table and can be used to shape image, put people on tilt, keep people from busting as quickly... So in a given night I may run it twice+ in every spot, or never at all.

As for your situation: he basically tabled his hand when he propositioned you. So your options are:

- say no, he may fold or call.
- say yes, he calls

Since you're making equity when he calls to draw against your made flush (unless for some reason you were betting less than ~1/3 of the pot), and because you now know he check folds a blank and wins on a 4th flush card, the hand is actually pretty much over anyway. You should do anything he wants to get a call, run it 5 times if he wants. This was definitely a plus EV deal for you. He just wanted to gamble.

And a last note, try not to take it personally (which is just good poker advice in general). Keep your options open with RIT. If it's a trickier spot like this, take your time and consider if it's actually worth it to you. Just shutting yourself out of RIT forever won't help you out.

 

[onerand]

Don't think it matters much unless you play in a big game with people who are on limited funds, running it once puts them under pressure. But if someone only runs it twice when drawing in big pots, and once when they think they are ahead, I refuse to RIT against them.

Agree that appropriate time to ask is when both players all in.

 

[brews]

Obviously, running it twice (RIT) has no net change on EV in the long run if we ignore the significance of any dead cards (whatever that might be) and acts to reduce variance. However, I wonder if being known to RIT has a significant effect on opposing players and how they play. Does it make them more likely to call with a draw? Does refusing to RIT induce tilt?

We allow running it multiple times at the home PLO game I go to and everyone is extremely aware of whom will run it more than once. I think it has less of an impact on the turn where both players have solid hands and one of the players only runs it once. The player on a draw will often still feel good enough about their draw to run it once because they still get to see 2 cards. On the river, players are much less likely to call with a draw if they know the other player only runs it once. Whether or not this is an advantage depends on your perspective and you're style. If you don't want the calls because you'd be flipping all the time then I guess it's good. If you want the action, then maybe it's not so good.

We have a super nit at the table that only runs it once. People have learned to never get it in with him on the river if there's a chance you're behind because the guy only runs it once and typically only plays the nuts or maybe second nuts. We have other players that are completely crazy, love to get it all in and only run it once. This never slows anyone down.

As an alternate to only running it once, you could give the option to run it once or three times knowing that you're ahead. Another variation we have is running 2+1. If the first to boards are a chop, then a third board is run giving one of the players 2/3 and the other 1/3 of the pot.

I haven't seen it too often where someone as a rule refuses to RIT has put someone else on tilt, but it can happen. Refusing to run it multiple times with certain players can definitely piss someone off though.

 

[BGinGA]

Prefer to run it once or thrice, almost never twice. That's like kissing your sister or chopping the tournament five ways.....

 

[illmil]

I too prefer 1 or 3 times. I don't watch Soccer for the same reason. I demand a clear-cut winner damnit!

 

[illmil]

Oh, to your original question, I do adjust my play if I know someone likes to run it more than once. It just seems natural to me that when you are put in a position where you are making a read to go all-in on a draw or to apply pressure against a hand you believe may fold, the extra bit of knowledge that your opponent will let you run it more than once makes me lean towards putting pressure on more with draws.

I've never heard of agreeing to RIT when both are not all-in... and I doubt I'd ever do that unless someone I like personally begs me to do so. hehe.

 

[Psypher1000]

I keep it simple and run it once, and because I only agree to run it once there's not really need to adjust my play.

 

[illmil]

Is it bad form to run it once or twice depending on the hands, how you feel, or how far ahead/behind you are that night? I don't like to run it more than once every time, but dependent upon multiple factors that night, I may change my tune.

 

[brews]

If either player is short stacked, even if it's not me, I always suggest we run it once. Short stack either doubles up or re-buys. Chopping when you're short is such drag. Otherwise I'm completely open to running it multiple times. I'm partial to running it 2+1, where one player either scoops or gets 2/3.

 

[lherron]

Is it bad form to run it once or twice depending on the hands, how you feel, or how far ahead/behind you are that night? I don't like to run it more than once every time, but dependent upon multiple factors that night, I may change my tune.

I think if there's anything we can learn from this thread it's that everyone feels a little differently about it, and no one should be upset at any else's choice to run it 1/2/3+ times regardless of the situation. Sometimes you're just in the mood to gamble, sometimes you just want to run it a few times... there a ton of reasons to do it both ways. I don't think there's any situation where there's clear etiquette one way or the other. (Though I agree it doesn't make a ton of sense to run it twice when one guy is a very shortstack... but if two players in that situation wanted to, I wouldn't be annoyed)

 

[guinness]

Is it bad form to run it once or twice depending on the hands, how you feel, or how far ahead/behind you are that night? I don't like to run it more than once every time, but dependent upon multiple factors that night, I may change my tune.

Absolutely bad etiquette (but perfectly legal) if you flip flop RIT in a single casino or home game session. Especially when the other player shows cards before deciding RIT and you flip/flop.

However, the only (general) exception in our games is when a player is super stuck late night whose been RIT all night but wants to run once to get a shot at reaching unstuckness. The sympathy offsets the perceived flip/flop.

Also, always decide RIT before showing cards. People who want to show cards first are amateur. In casino you won't find "show first" for RIT.