Long-time regular loses his marbles (2 Viewers)

[upNdown]

Am I the only one in here that thinks it's the host that is out of line and not the player?

That occurred to me. Like I said previously, it seems possible that this guys rant didn’t come from nowhere, like maybe it had been building up. Of course the host is entitled to set whatever rules he wants but that only works as long as the players are okay with it. And so far it seems like at least one of them is not.
Chances are things are fine. But it might be worth it for the host to sniff around the other players and make sure they’re all comfortable with the rules.

 

[CraigT78]

2 card poker is not "real poker"

 

[RainmanTrail]

That occurred to me. Like I said previously, it seems possible that this guys rant didn’t come from nowhere, like maybe it had been building up. Of course the host is entitled to set whatever rules he wants but that only works as long as the players are okay with it. And so far it seems like at least one of them is not.
Chances are things are fine. But it might be worth it for the host to sniff around the other players and make sure they’re all comfortable with the rules.

I probably shouldn't have said the host was "out of line". It's likely more just differences of belief in how the game ought to be played. A lot of younger players who only know poker from online and a handful of live environments that are usually tournaments or one of the numerous terrible card rooms that spread low limit cash games and implement tournament style rules to run them often don't know any differently. But poker wasn't played this way before. The games used to all be player dealt. Card rooms started putting dealers in to make the games run faster and to offer a mediator, but it was always the players' games, never the house's game. That's how it should be. If you play higher limits, nobody acts like that. Intentions matter more than technicalities and any proposition you can dream up is fair game.

I'd wager good money that the villain in this story is over the age of 45 and is used to playing real poker and that he's been biting his tongue for a while now with regard to the host constantly calling out technicalities that shouldn't matter and that have no material effect on the game, and it just finally boiled over for him that night.

 

[Budha]

This isn't a tournament. It's a cash game. Asking another player to run it twice or check it down, or whatever oddball request you have at any point in a hand when heads up, is and should be fair game.

It’s not often that I agree with @RainmanTrail (lol), however I do kinda see a valid point of view here. One that is worthy of some discussion IMHO.

Do we sometimes take ourselves a bit too seriously in these kinds of threads…?

Add On: is the absolute enforcement of every rule necessary in a friendly home game. Will the game devolve into chaos and flames absent iron fisted enforcement, or is there a distinction between robbing a bank and jay walking?

 

[MrCatPants]

Intentions matter more than technicalities and any proposition you can dream up is fair game.

The whole point of many rules is because intentions are interperatable and devlolve into very weird situations that are difficult to mediate.

e.g. Someone puts forward a stack of chips and lets them go without a verbal. Other person snaps and says call. First person says "i wasnt done betting yet" and starts cutting chips out of the stack they put forward to reduce their "bet" or grabs a second stack and slides it forward.

Fine line between technicalities and angles, imo.

 

[Taghkanic]

I'd wager good money that the villain in this story is over the age of 45 and is used to playing real poker and that he's been biting his tongue for a while now

I just looked up the word “real” in the dictionary and learned that it means “not giving a fuck about anything except what makes you and only you feel good at that specific moment”

 

[upNdown]

I just looked up the word “real” in the dictionary and learned that it means “not giving a fuck about anything except what makes you and only you feel good at that specific moment”

Wait, so two-card could be REAL poker? Are you sure?

 

[CraigT78]

Wait, so two-card could be REAL poker? Are you sure?

It's not.

 

[RainmanTrail]

The whole point of many rules is because intentions are interperatable and devlolve into very weird situations that are difficult to mediate.

e.g. Someone puts forward a stack of chips and lets them go without a verbal. Other person snaps and says call. First person says "i wasnt done betting yet" and starts cutting chips out of the stack they put forward to reduce their "bet" or grabs a second stack and slides it forward.

Fine line between technicalities and angles, imo.

Right, but there's a world of difference between someone grabbing a barrel of chips, pushing it towards the pot, releasing the chips and bringing their hand back without saying a word, and someone grabbing a barrel of chips, keeping the chips in their hand while cutting out 8 chips and bringing back the other 12 chips having never released them. The first example is a wager of all 20 chips in every game in the country and always has been. The second is an action that is still allowed in the majority of cash games across the country and was previously allowed in ALL poker games prior to 15-20 years ago. In the second example, everyone knows his intentions were to wager 8 chips and the only reason anyone calls otherwise is to trap him into wagering more than he wanted to. To me, THAT'S the angle shoot, trying to trap someone into putting more chips into the pot than they clearly intended. Not the other way around.

In every scenario you outlined in your OP, the "out of line" plays by the villain are completely standard poker actions that would be allowed in most poker rooms even to this day, outside of the WSOP or other large tournament circuits. And certainly in the majority of home games.

 

[BGinGA]

It's not.

Technically,. Hold'em is 7 card poker, not 2 card. Just sayin'....

 

[CraigT78]

Technically,. Hold'em is 7 card poker, not 2 card. Just sayin'....

If you tell me I get 7 cards, I'll play.

 

[Hornet]

If you tell me I get 7 cards, I'll play.

You get 7 cards.

 

[CraigT78]

You get 7 cards.

Pot.

 

[MrCatPants]

Right, but there's a world of difference between someone grabbing a barrel of chips, pushing it towards the pot, releasing the chips and bringing their hand back without saying a word, and someone grabbing a barrel of chips, keeping the chips in their hand while cutting out 8 chips and bringing back the other 12 chips having never released them. The first example is a wager of all 20 chips in every game in the country and always has been. The second is an action that is still allowed in the majority of cash games across the country and was previously allowed in ALL poker games prior to 15-20 years ago. In the second example, everyone knows his intentions were to wager 8 chips and the only reason anyone calls otherwise is to trap him into wagering more than he wanted to. To me, THAT'S the angle shoot, trying to trap someone into putting more chips into the pot than they clearly intended. Not the other way around.

Those actions you describe are not what it is in the OP; in the OP the scenarios are different. In the first, he pushes a stack of chips in, releases them and then after a moment begins to cut out a bet. In the second he "drips" chips slowly into the pot one at a time - not a single cut.

We also had a scenario i didnt post about where it was two separate actions. Pushed a bet forward and released without a verbal, and then went back for more chips.

 

[RainmanTrail]

Those actions you describe are not what it is in the OP; in the OP the scenarios are different. In the first, he pushes a stack of chips in, releases them and then after a moment begins to cut out a bet. In the second he "drips" chips slowly into the pot one at a time - not a single cut.

We also had a scenario i didnt post about where it was two separate actions. Pushed a bet forward and released without a verbal, and then went back for more chips.

I'd be wrong then.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

For a reg, it's fair to approach him with concern followed up with "That doesn't fly in my game and you know it. Next time it happens you'll be taking a break from the game." I'm going to be a LOT more lenient if he apologizes to you and the group before being prompted to do so.

As for "real" poker? My house, my rules. Vote with your feet if you don't like it.

 

[Machine]

Help me out, on this string bet stuff, vote here

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/is-this-a-string-bet.120104/

 

[merkong]

Send him Robert's Rules of Poker and make him apologize to everyone privately, then the group can decide if they want him back.

Some of his gripe won’t be covered in Robert’s. He’s an adult, if he apologizes, he apologizes. It’s not a group decision. My game, my decision. If this isn’t the first time; later dude…

 

[matthewb]

Some of his gripe won’t be covered in Robert’s. He’s an adult if he apologizes, he apologizes. It’s not a group decision. My game, my decision. If this isn’t the first time; later dude…

Read the third sentence in your post. That was my response.

As for Robert's Rules, show him that string-bets are standard (since that's how you want to run your game). Also, having the mindset of "MY GAME, MY RULES *blah blah blah*" ... is ugly. Your game is non-existent without players.

 

[varoadstter]

I was going to reply with a bunch of examples from games I play in but changed my mind. Aside from the gossip value, it didn't really add to this discussion. There are a few things that I personally consider notable and a few questions:

• He's a reg
• This is not normal behavior for this player
• He was informed several times about rules and wanted to just do whatever he wanted
• He got angry when he didn't get his way and left

A few have asked about alcohol being a factor. This would be useful information, definitely.

Personally, I give a LOT of latitude to regs as they are the heart and soul of a regular game but even so, rules are there for a reason. I would certainly follow up with the guy the day after. If he is ghosting you then I'd say take him off the invite list until you've had a chance to at least talk about it.

Once you do talk, try to find out what was going on with them. None of us are immune from getting weird from time to time and it may just be that the dude was having his worst day, he lost a hand/hands that just tilted him and wasn't handling it well, he had some sort of issue with another player that was irritating him. Any of a number of reasons why a usually well-behaved guy gets weird out of the blue. Once you get some sort of response there, you are basically left with figuring out how you feel about things. It could be anything from, "this guy is bad for the game and won't accept being told repeatedly that he was in the wrong - don't invite back", to "dude just went off the rails but feels bad about it - maybe he reaches out to offended parties and apologizes", or even "no one else in the game gives a damn about this, he's good for the game - invite back".

This is very different from a new player acting like a dumbass. Those guys just don't get a second try. They are just not coming back.

Last thing, try your level best to not take it personally. I'm not saying if he was making everyone there uncomfortable including you to just let it slide. Rather, I mean, check yourself as you reach out to try not to let any personal frustration from the moment influence how you deal with them.

Good luck. Every regularly running game will have these things happen from time to time. As the host, the ultimate authority is you. If you don't want them there, then don't invite them. Hopefully, things cool down and any ruffled feathers can be smoothed down and get back to normal.

Shuffle up and deal.

 

[merkong]

Read the third sentence in your post. That was my response.

As for Robert's Rules, show him that string-bets are standard (since that's how you want to run your game). Also, having the mindset of "MY GAME, MY RULES *blah blah blah*" ... is ugly. Your game is non-existent without players.

You said it was a group decision. Here it isn’t. Bad behavior isn’t necessarily a rule… We follow all the basic gameplay and etiquette rules. If someone is disrespectful or disruptive they probably won’t last long. My list is 50 deep and I’ve filled a 10 person table 109 weeks in a row. My previous game tripled that feat. Knowing what’s right for a game is the hosts duty. I think I’ll be alright.

 

[matthewb]

You said it was a group decision. Here it isn’t. Bad behavior isn’t necessarily a rule… We follow all the basic gameplay and etiquette rules. If someone is disrespectful or disruptive they probably won’t last long. My list is 50 deep and I’ve filled a 10 person table 109 weeks in a row. My previous game tripled that feat. Knowing what’s right for a game is the hosts duty. I think I’ll be alright.

Get a life

 

[merkong]

Get a life

You’re new around here aren’t you?

 

[matthewb]

You’re new around here aren’t you?

You said I'm new? I've posted 82 times, with this being my 83rd. Making it a rate of 6.384615384615385 posts per day. Today is my thirteenth day on the forum. I think I know a thing or two about PCF. It's the users' duty to keep up engagement. I think it's coming along great.

 

[merkong]

You said I'm new? I've posted 82 times, with this being my 83rd. Making it a rate of 6.384615384615385 posts per day. Today is my thirteenth day on the forum. I think I know a thing or two about PCF. It's the users' duty to keep up engagement. I think it's coming along great.

I didn’t get a chance to welcome you (welcome to PCF) and yes posting is king.

All I was implying by asking (tongue in cheek of course) is that overall, it’s a friendly community and while there is a wide range of opinions on several matters, the vast majority of the exchanges are friendly. I’m not sure telling members to “get a life” falls into that category. I’ll check Robert’s Rules.

I’m just trying to be helpful. This isn’t your run of the mill social media. A ton of members interact on a regular basis and many send hundreds or thousands of dollars to others sight unseen. Reputation is everything here. Just saying.

Again, welcome to PCF. We make of it what we make of it.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Also, having the mindset of "MY GAME, MY RULES *blah blah blah*" ... is ugly. Your game is non-existent without players.

True, but if the players do whatever they want whenever they want and rule by consensus, the game falls apart.

There has to be a single voice that sets the rules and makes decisions. When I host, that is my voice. That doesn't mean that I ignore my players - on the contrary, I almost always ask for opinions and more info before I change my rules or make an important decision during a game.

But they know that in the end, the choice is mine, and once a decision is made, it's final.

 

[matthewb]

I didn’t get a chance to welcome you (welcome to PCF) and yes posting is king.

All I was implying by asking (tongue in cheek of course) is that overall, it’s a friendly community and while there is a wide range of opinions on several matters, the vast majority of the exchanges are friendly. I’m not sure telling members to “get a life” falls into that category. I’ll check Robert’s Rules.

I’m just trying to be helpful. This isn’t your run of the mill social media. A ton of members interact on a regular basis and many send hundreds or thousands of dollars to others sight unseen. Reputation is everything here. Just saying.

Again, welcome to PCF. We make of it what we make of it.

Lol you cherry-picked the first comment that said something about giving other people any slight control over their own experience. How's that for reputation?

Also, I'm not rich or dumb enough with money, to be spending thousands of dollars for a nice set of Paulson chips. That comes after I own a house. I can for sure offer people services though, but I'm not out for that either as it seems there are lots of skilled people on here.

But back to you, thanks for the warm welcome! I'll for sure remember your name moving forward. Good luck with your games, man. I think you'll get it figured out.

 

[matthewb]

True, but if the players do whatever they want whenever they want and rule by consensus, the game falls apart.

There has to be a single voice that sets the rules and makes decisions. When I host, that is my voice. That doesn't mean that I ignore my players - on the contrary, I almost always ask for opinions and more info before I change my rules or make an important decision during a game.

But they know that in the end, the choice is mine, and once a decision is made, it's final.

You can do many things to be a good host. I'm not saying step back, but it obviously shouldn't have resulted in someone storming out and yelling like what

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I've posted 82 times, with this being my 83rd. Making it a rate of 6.384615384615385 posts per day. Today is my thirteenth day on the forum. I think I know a thing or two about PCF.

You know how this sounds, right?

In all seriousness, welcome to PCF. There are a lot of people around here who know a lot about running successful home games, and have been doing it for years and years. I'm sure you've got a lot to learn from them, and a lot to contribute as well.

 

[merkong]

True, but if the players do whatever they want whenever they want and rule by consensus, the game falls apart.

There has to be a single voice that sets the rules and makes decisions. When I host, that is my voice. That doesn't mean that I ignore my players - on the contrary, I almost always ask for opinions and more info before I change my rules or make an important decision during a game.

But they know that in the end, the choice is mine, and once a decision is made, it's final.

Well said and spot on. Early in this run I was forced to make a huge decision on a player who was with the game for its first 25 or 30 sessions. I consulted my inner brain trust because it was a sensitive issue and I needed to make sure I was seeing everything for what it was. I was seeing things clearly and stood with my immediate thoughts and that player is probably looking for another table somewhere.

The Captain of a ship has a crew to support them but they’re ultimately responsible for the ship and that crew.

No authoritarian regime here. Just trying to maintain a sense of sanity, diplomacy, and keep them coming.