Morals, ethics, legalities or hardcore chip harvesting. (1 Viewer)

[Stufflymcstuff]

Actually he brought up what is probably the best analogy yet. Samples at grocery stores. They are 1 per customer generally but the clerks will absolutely give you multiple samples if you ask and absolutely no one cares. Especially if you’re buying something while you’re in there.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

I'll ask the question everyone is thinking .... what are you getting?

Oh my good friend. It’s always the same for me. What do YOU need? Lol

Supply and demand. You gotta love it!!!

@Cord has been at the top of ballys list for dayZZz, he needs those mint $5 racks and I need his dunes. It’s a weird world, and who doesn’t love a good night out in Paris??? Funny thing is I’m not staying but got a free room at Circus Circus, deff gonna swing by with the kidos, OH and if that PLO opens at the Flamingo I will be a permanent fixture in seat 5.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I want to move to Vegas

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

I want to move to Vegas

As long as your not a watch collector on a chip site, you will prob like it a lot. Great place….. Lots of fun! ! !

 

[Perthmike]

As long as your not a watch collector on a chip site, you will prob like it a lot. Great place….. Lots of fun! ! !

There's plenty of boutiques in Vegas actually. Plenty of morons like yourself as well so it's quite easy to win money .

 

[The_dude]

The starburst casino has been silently building a case for years… we’re ALL going down

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

As long as your not a watch collector on a chip site, you will prob like it a lot. Great place….. Lots of fun! ! !

There's plenty of boutiques in Vegas actually. Plenty of morons like yourself as well so it's quite easy to win money .

i've spent many a summer there for the wsop. i'd be there now if it wasn't for the 'vid.

and not to stir the pot but ime one of the best indicators of how fast someone is pissing money away is how garish their watch is.
(not that there's anything wrong with that)

 

[softchewy]

 

[Sprouty]

and not to stir the pot

Nope, doesn't seem like the type of post that would stir the pot in the slightest.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

Those Rolex have gone nuts this last year though Tks to covid hocus pocus.

 

[Lemonzest]

Nope, doesn't seem like the type of post that would stir the pot in the slightest.

This honestly made me lol.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

It’s not even meant as an insult. If you’re baller enough to spend tens of thousands on watches you probably don’t care about losing a little bit at poker.

calling space monkey a moron and saying he’ll be the guy losing money at poker is just ??? … a guy hungry enough to harvest chips just will never be the guy sticking a rack of 25s in the center because “ahh fuck it, I wanna go get something to eat”. You’d have to have done a lot of things right in life to be in a position to give that few fucks. Respeck!

 

[Perthmike]

@SpaceMonkey420, arguing like children isn't really necessary or helpful to anyone, so I will cease goading you. Sometimes I get too caught up in a good verbal sparring session. I probably shouldn't be insulting internet strangers.

So I hereby call a truce and sincerely hope you enjoy your time at the tables in Vegas.

 

[Sprouty]

 

[Perthmike]

View attachment 757794

Let's not go that far lol

 

[Taghkanic]

So who determines how much profit casino is making, and off of what? Have you analyzed their quarterly reports? No you haven’t.

Don’t need to. We have many knowledgeable members (some who have worked in the industry, it appears) who have said the casinos typically pay $1-$2 per chip. Generally on the lower end of that range, it seems. I’ve spitballed an average of $1.50/ea. based on others’ posts here and on other threads, and that is probably high.

So any chip with a denom higher than $1 which is lost, taken as a souvenir, or harvested results in net +$ for the casino. The $1s which they lose are (a) a trivial expense, and (b) one which can be written off or otherwise treated with accounting magic to redound to the casino’s benefit.

The topic of this thread is regarding morals and ethics of harvesting. This is regarding harvesting at establishments that haven’t given express permission to do so, or don’t seem to mind. Any casino that doesn’t care if people harvest chips are not part of discussion. We all already know that’s ok, yet people try to use it as a defense.

Can you name any casino that *has* given “express permission”? No? So that’s off the table.

However, we do know from experience and reports that there is hardly any casino which seems to bother policing this practice. Which is evidence that in fact, they don’t care.

We are also aren’t talking about the random tourist who takes a chip or two home as a souvenir. We are talking about harvesting, which implies at minimum a barrel, hundreds, or even thousands of chips. The motivation for harvesting can differ between personal use and the intent to resale for a profit.

As one can see from the detailed paper posted by @ReallyGoodUsername, harvesting is apparently is such a rare practice that it does not even bear mention in close legal and accounting analysis. The casinos evidently expect far more chip disappearances from “souvenir” takers or people who just forget to cash out a few chips before flying home, and they plan for it. One can infer from that that the hundreds of thousands or millions of casino visitors taking home a handful of chips dwarfs whatever racks PCFers and others are harvesting.

How many regular harvesters are there in the whole United States? I would be surprised if it is even 100, or less than two per state.

The reason people try to rationalize is because they don’t want to be perceived as thieves. They rationalize away, giving lame excuses and minimizing their actions. I used to put thieves in jail for a living, and I’ve heard all the excuses before. This thread has been interesting to see who has said what, and how people think. It’s also made me think about the idea of harvesting. It had never occurred to me to try to harvest chips for home use before joining this forum. Then it seemed like a great idea. Then I found out how much the chips actually cost. I’ve changed my mind.

You sound conflicted. Maybe that is where the rage-y tone is coming from. Easy man.

 

[coolguy101]

Don’t need to. We have many knowledgeable members (some who have worked in the industry, it appears) who have said the casinos typically pay $1-$2 per chip. Generally on the lower end of that range, it seems. I’ve spitballed an average of $1.50/ea. based on others’ posts here and on other threads, and that is probably high.

So any chip with a denom higher than $1 which is lost, taken as a souvenir, or harvested results in net +$ for the casino. The $1s which they lose are (a) a trivial expense, and (b) one which can be written off or otherwise treated with accounting magic to redound to the casino’s benefit.



Can you name any casino that *has* given “express permission”? No? So that’s off the table.

However, we do know from experience and reports that there is hardly any casino which seems to bother policing this practice. Which is evidence that in fact, they don’t care.



As one can see from the detailed paper posted by @ReallyGoodUsername, harvesting is apparently is such a rare practice that it does not even bear mention in close legal and accounting analysis. The casinos evidently expect far more chip disappearances from “souvenir” takers or people who just forget to cash out a few chips before flying home, and they plan for it. One can infer from that that the hundreds of thousands or millions of casino visitors taking home a handful of chips dwarfs whatever racks PCFers and others are harvesting.

How many regular harvesters are there in the whole United States? I would be surprised if it is even 100, or less than two per state.



You sound conflicted. Maybe that is where the rage-y tone is coming from. Easy man.

Nice ad hominem, but that is to be expected.

when I say express permission, what do you say then to those members who said they want to the cage, announced their intent, and the casino employees helped them pick out nice chips to take home and keep? That is express permission. So that rebuttal is done.

Soas I said, you didn’t examine their quarterly report. You don’t know their shrink numbers. You rationalize that you know the costs, assume that they can write it off, and are ok with it. The reality is you don’t know, and just try to minimize the potential loss by talking about high denom chips. But we all know the most commonly harvestchips are the $1 chips, not the $5 and up chips. So that rebuttal doesn’t work either.

You say they don’t care because they don’t police it. But you really don’t know that. There are several reasons why they may not appear to police it if. They may or may not cate, but that brings me to the next point:

the legal question has already been answered by someone else: it’s not legal, just rarely enforced. So no amount of rationalization will change that fact.

Harvesting probably isn’t a big thing - yet. You are correct that there are probably only a handful of guys out there doing it regularly. However, that still isn’t relevant to the other two main questions: is it moral or ethical?

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Soas I said, you didn’t examine their quarterly report. You don’t know their shrink numbers. You rationalize that you know the costs, assume that they can write it off, and are ok with it. The reality is you don’t know, and just try to minimize the potential loss by talking about high denom chips. But we all know the most commonly harvestchips are the $1 chips, not the $5 and up chips. So that rebuttal doesn’t work either.

I do as I talked with someone with multi years experience in the accounting dept and the cash room for a major casino chain in the US (and as a former auditor for one of the big four). The chip loss figure and even avg annual chip related expenses are immaterial. If the whole figure was completely incorrect it would fall below their annual audits materiality level and not even looked into further. If that’s not good enough on that point then nothing is lol

 

[CrazyEddie]

the legal question has already been answered by someone else: it’s not legal, just rarely enforced. So no amount of rationalization will change that fact.

I don't think that's the correct answer to the legal question.

It is not illegal to remove chips from the casino. Casinos neither expect nor demand that patrons cash out before they walk out. Casinos and regulators accept that patrons may hold chips on them for indeterminate periods of time before eventually returning to the casino to further play them or to cash them, and, for that matter, accept that patrons may take them home as souvenirs and retain them forever.

It is conceivable that a casino could ask a patron not to remove their property (the chips) from the premises, and conceivable that if the patron refused to hand over (or redeem) the chips prior to leaving that the casino could have them arrested. That doesn't mean that taking out chips is illegal but not enforced; it means that the casino could choose to make it illegal, but never does.

What's illegal is using the chips as currency, as it runs afoul of federal legal tender laws. People in Las Vegas do this anyway because nobody cares, and the casinos only care because the feds make them "officially care" i.e. make them put up notices telling you it's illegal. But that's completely separate from removing them from the casino in the first place, which is completely legal.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

This is somewhat worrying but seems to be the only case I’ve ever heard of, obsolete or otherwise.

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/dealing-with-usps-investigation-service.78202/#post-1594469

 

[The_dude]

In 2019 MGM made (earnings, not revenue) 3.69 BILLION dollars (FYI revenue was 12.46 BILLION dollars). Las Vegas Sands earned 4.32 BILLION dollars on 13.73 BILLION dollars of revenue.

Does anyone think they actually give a shit about someone taking a few (or a few thousand) racks of $1s? This isn’t a drop in an ocean of relevance for any employee in the casino, from the janitor to the CEO, aside from making their 8+ hour shift more miserable.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I think they’d probably care about a few thousand. I doubt you’d be able to get an employee to sign off on that much in one shot. Maybe some would but I think you’d get rejected far more often than not.

it’s like taking the grocery store sample and instead of circling the tables to discretely take your 7th bagel bite, you go in asking for them to cook you up an entire pizza and pack it in a to-go container.

 

[The_dude]

I think they’d probably care about a few thousand. I doubt you’d be able to get an employee to sign off on that much in one shot. Maybe some would but I think you’d get rejected far more often than not.

it’s like taking the grocery store sample and instead of circling the tables to discretely take your 7th bagel bite, you go in asking for them to cook you up an entire pizza and pack it in a to-go container.

Well yeah, that’s what I’m saying it’s more of a PITA than anything, the financial impact is totally irrelevant

 

[The_dude]

I think they’d probably care about a few thousand. I doubt you’d be able to get an employee to sign off on that much in one shot. Maybe some would but I think you’d get rejected far more often than not.

it’s like taking the grocery store sample and instead of circling the tables to discretely take your 7th bagel bite, you go in asking for them to cook you up an entire pizza and pack it in a to-go container.

Also mmm bagel bites

 

[Mojo1312]

I got busted today harvesting a microwave at Target. I told the police the microwave tied in well with my kitchen appliances at home, my coffee maker, (harvested from Bed, Bath and Beyond), my food processor purchased online through Amazon, (couldn't find the right color in the local department stores to go with my other appliances, what can you do?), and my popcorn popper, (harvested from my parents house.) Worst of all, Mr. five-o and the store manager had no sense of humor about it.

I don't get it. What is society coming to? Government telling people what to do and authorities busting you for harvesting appliances.

 

[Taghkanic]

I do as I talked with someone with multi years experience in the accounting dept and the cash room for a major casino chain in the US (and as a former auditor for one of the big four). The chip loss figure and even avg annual chip related expenses are immaterial. If the whole figure was completely incorrect it would fall below their annual audits materiality level and not even looked into further. If that’s not good enough on that point then nothing is lol

What RGU said. And CrazyEddie. And many others in multiple PCF threads over the years.

And yes, @coolguy101, after providing a long substantive reply, I also questioned what seemed to me like an unnecessarily angry and punitive tone to your post—which extended into the next one (a series of finger-pointing “you don’t know”s). One might think chip harvesters were breaking and entering into grandma’s house and taking her Social Security check.

Anyway, back to the issue… Re. enforcement:

Police often look the other way at behaviors which are technically illegal, but are not worth their time (let alone that of the courts).

People don’t get pulled over for going 56 in a 55, even if the radar proves you were breaking the law by “speeding.”

To a casino with billions in earnings (again, h/t @The_dude), a rack of 1s isn’t even equivalent to going 56 in a 55 zone. It’s more like going 55.00000001.

Which is why despite the fact that probably 99% of all harvesters are PCF members, we have never heard here of a harvester getting cuffed for cherry-picking a nice rack of $1s.

(Note: I’ve never harvested. I did once forget to cash out a $100 chip, which I discovered in a pocket much later and too far away to go back. A nice $98.50 profit for the casino, that. Plus even if it had been intentional, I still didn’t steal their property; I still can go back and redeem it.)

 

[CrazyEddie]

harvesting a microwave at Target.

This analogy might make sense if

• You paid up front for the microwave in full before taking it out of the store
• The microwave remained the store's property even after you paid for it
• The store doesn't mind if you take the microwave out of the store even though it's still their property
• The store expects you to bring it back someday for a full refund
• The store makes money on most of the microwaves if you don't bring them back
• The store loses a small amount of money on the cheapest microwaves if you don't bring them back
• The store makes money hand over fist when you shop there, even if you don't take any microwaves home
• The store makes so much money when you shop there that they pay you to shop there

If all of that were true, then the cheap microwaves would be what's known as a "loss leader", a ubiquitous business practice.

But since most of that isn't true, the analogy is just dumb.

 

[Mojo1312]

It is the hi-jacking of the word "harvesting" that I am poking fun at. To see the word co-opted in this manner after growing up in a farming community where kids, including myself, worked on farms bringing in the harvest is the epitome of white privilege.

This analogy might make sense if

• You paid up front for the microwave in full before taking it out of the store
• The microwave remained the store's property even after you paid for it
• The store doesn't mind if you take the microwave out of the store even though it's still their property
• The store expects you to bring it back someday for a full refund
• The store makes money on most of the microwaves if you don't bring them back
• The store loses a small amount of money on the cheapest microwaves if you don't bring them back
• The store makes money hand over fist when you shop there, even if you don't take any microwaves home
• The store makes so much money when you shop there that they pay you to shop there

 

[Frogzilla]

In 2019 MGM made (earnings, not revenue) 3.69 BILLION dollars (FYI revenue was 12.46 BILLION dollars). Las Vegas Sands earned 4.32 BILLION dollars on 13.73 BILLION dollars of revenue.

Does anyone think they actually give a shit about someone taking a few (or a few thousand) racks of $1s? This isn’t a drop in an ocean of relevance for any employee in the casino, from the janitor to the CEO, aside from making their 8+ hour shift more miserable.

Identical argument could be made about swiping a 375 ml bottle of Jack from one of their bars. But, that would be morally and ethically and legally dubious.

Maybe “will it bankrupt the multinational casino” isn’t a great standard

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

Will it enrich a multinational casino? - is a better standard and by all accounts the answer seems to be “yes” unless you’re literally just in and out for 1s and nothing else. End of story. All other opinions are factually, objectively wrong and anyone who disagrees is a poopoo head.