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Murder vs No Murder & Why (2 Viewers)

Himewad said:
If you’re not a collector, you’re going to have no problem with murdering chips. And if you are a collector, fewer chips in circulation is a good thing for your collections, right?
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Unless the collectors and non-collectors see chips as more than simply a tool to play poker or an asset to invest in.
 
My biggest gripe isn't with the murder, it's with what happens next. When people relabel genuine paulson chips to look like chips from real casinos (either existing or from the past,) they're creating what I consider to be a counterfeit product. And, my personal distaste for copies aside, what happens when that guy kicks the bucket and his widow puts them on eBay? Now you've got fakes, out in the world, that people may assume are genuine.
Go nuts making your own semi-customs with your own label design. But copying a casino's unique inlay, either exactly or even substantially, is just not cool, as far as I'm concerned.
 
I tend to agree with the general sentiment. Murder is OK, just have a little class about it and don’t murder low qty/rare chips that you know others are seeking to complete legitimate sets. Murder all the Jack’s you want - lol.

I’ve seen some really awesome “murder” sets that are material improvements over the original chips. So being totally against murder is kind of limiting IMO.

Relabeling is all good, and should be considered when the original chips are ones that should be preserved.
 
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Friends don’t let friends murder
No ragrets
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upNdown said:
My biggest gripe isn't with the murder, it's with what happens next. When people relabel genuine paulson chips to look like chips from real casinos (either existing or from the past,) they're creating what I consider to be a counterfeit product. And, my personal distaste for copies aside, what happens when that guy kicks the bucket and his widow puts them on eBay? Now you've got fakes, out in the world, that people may assume are genuine.
Go nuts making your own semi-customs with your own label design. But copying a casino's unique inlay, either exactly or even substantially, is just not cool, as far as I'm concerned.
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It’s only counterfeit if they try and pass it off as such.

You also assume buyers would not be able to spot this. Niche collectibles/hobbies tend to have highly informed/knowledgeable buyers.

I see this in vintage tube audio ALL the time. Lots of amps with the wrong transformers. They are not counterfeit amps, they are repaired amps. Sometimes the replacement transformers are waaay better, many times not. (Quite a few are total hack jobs)

The end auction price tells the story. Those who know, don’t bid or bid accordingly and it usually goes for well under the value of a full original and for about what it should for what it is.
 
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AfterTheFact said:
One of my biggest regrets is selling my karl’s chips to someone who murdered them.
My second biggest regret is seeing them relabeled and thinking damn those look great.
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Sorry man. I am anti murder and LOVE hot stamps more than anything…. But l love them too much to see them unfelted. If they had any time of number on them it would’ve been a different Story. And I knew that I loved them more than any of my sets. Enough to know that they would legitimately be keepers. I also sat on them for 2 years before doing it to be sure. I couldn’t be happier with them. Thank you.
 
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AfterTheFact said:
One of my biggest regrets is selling my karl’s chips to someone who murdered them.
My second biggest regret is seeing them relabeled and thinking damn those look great.
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I'm glad we have memories together.....

......I just wish our memories didn't start with the word "regrets"....
 
I think murder and milling has opened up this hobby and made it realistic for some people to make custom sets in an age where sets are at a premium.

And in the end, it's just clay discs..... Whatever anyone does to them to make them more useful to someone in life, and gives them a chance to serve there purpose, is a win. Thousands of chips sit in racks and boxes and collect dust. I think it's a win when those chips hit felt.

This is art 101 here. PCF is the gallery. Everyone here is a designer or artist in there own way.....thru putting chips together in sets or designing a label.... Or just buying a set they adore and celebrating it thru pics.... Everyone here shows their art and design. The joy they have with it. We all celebrate. Because we all love this artform.

There are chips I won't mill or murder (a few....), but I'll never shame anyone else for going thru their journey and attempting to make something they will love. I hope they do, and I hope whatever they make is loved for years to come.
 
upNdown said:
My biggest gripe isn't with the murder, it's with what happens next. When people relabel genuine paulson chips to look like chips from real casinos (either existing or from the past,) they're creating what I consider to be a counterfeit product. And, my personal distaste for copies aside, what happens when that guy kicks the bucket and his widow puts them on eBay? Now you've got fakes, out in the world, that people may assume are genuine.
Go nuts making your own semi-customs with your own label design. But copying a casino's unique inlay, either exactly or even substantially, is just not cool, as far as I'm concerned.
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To me this is valid. I don't like the idea of trying to pass something off when it is not as it seems. On the other hand, trying to create something that look like it "could have been real/genuine", but clearly is not, is not the same. If you are buying collectibles, you should at least have an idea of what the real thing looks like & if you don't then it's your own fault.

Budha said:
It’s only counterfeit if they try and pass it off as such.

You also assume buyers would not be able to spot this. Niche collectibles/hobbies tend to have highly informed/knowledgeable buyers.

I see this in vintage tube audio ALL the time. Lots of amps with the wrong transformers. They are not counterfeit amps, they are repaired amps. Sometimes the replacement transformers are waaay better, many times not. (Quite a few are total hack jobs)

The end auction price tells the story. Those who know, don’t bid or bid accordingly and it usually goes for well under the value of a full original and for about what it should for what it is.
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This sort of explains how I feel too. If someone buys the China Clay Dunes and pays $2000 for a set of 300 of them, then they are being an idiot. I agree 100% that the seller should not be advertising them as Dunes originals, but at the same time there should be some responsibility put on the buyer too. Honestly, everyone spending any sort of real money on any sort of collectibles should do a little research
 
Even tough I've milled 2000+ chips, I WAS anti-murder when it comes to anything that is not a roulette, blank, monogrammed, fantasy, of badly faded hotstamp that is not usable.

That being said, it pains me to see people milling Fun Nites. I've had both the Paulson and BCC versions and loved them, miss them. Just trade them to someone for monogrammed solids.

Also I'm about to hit a crossroads: you can't find a THC chip that is yellow, spotted and monogrammed lol.

So I have some spotted yellows on the way to complete a set. I'd gladly trade them to not mill actual cali THC chips. But no one has anything similar that is just a personal monogram of no value.

So I may be making an exception to my own guidelines soon....
 
Nanook said:
If you are buying collectibles, you should at least have an idea of what the real thing looks like & if you don't then it's your own fault.
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You obviously have never had a collectable purchased for you as a gift. Or maybe you think the gift buyer is at fault for buying a forgery?
 
Poker Zombie said:
You obviously have never had a collectable purchased for you as a gift. Or maybe you think the gift buyer is at fault for buying a forgery?
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No I have not. I guess I had not thought about that as a possibility.

At the same time I would not buy a collectable that is worth a significant amount of money as a gift just as I would not buy a Rolex off the street vendor for $500 thinking I was doing my Rolex collector friend a favor
 
Poker Zombie said:
You obviously have never had a collectable purchased for you as a gift. Or maybe you think the gift buyer is at fault for buying a forgery?
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Kind of a strawman…..

I guess the question is how many people are buying $3000+ collectibles as gifts from unscrupulous dealers/sellers.

If I’m buying a high dollar collectible gift for someone, that I am not personally knowledgeable about, I’m NOT gonna drop $3k + on eBay - lol. I would say if they bought off eBay or similar type merchant, and they are not Knowledgeable about the items, then yeah, I would say that’s not super smart.

If I’m buying a high $$ collectible as a gift for a serious collector, I’m going to do some due diligence! I’m generally going to buy from a reputable dealer (that I have researched and validated) that includes some type of documentation, and who will stand behind it.
 
Budha said:
Kind of a strawman…..

I guess the question is how many people are buying $3000+ collectibles as gifts from unscrupulous dealers/sellers.

If I’m buying a high dollar collectible gift for someone, that I am not personally knowledgeable about, I’m NOT gonna drop $3k + on eBay - lol. I would say if they bought off eBay or similar type merchant, and they are not Knowledgeable about the items, then yeah, I would say that’s not super smart.

If I’m buying a high $$ collectible as a gift for a serious collector, I’m going to do some due diligence! I’m generally going to buy from a reputable dealer (that I have researched and validated) that includes some type of documentation, and who will stand behind it.
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As Bill Handel always says... Well what if my grandmother suddenly had balls? Well. She's be my grandfather. So what?

I just really like that line. I've dropped it in a meeting before at work.
 

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