Omaha Hand, would you make this call? (1 Viewer)

[naked_eskimo]

Playing 4 handed NLO (can't convince all of my online players to switch to PLO), and I was facing an all in bet from a very aggressive player who really doesn't (imo) make very many adjustments for Omaha vs Hold'em. He plays a wide range of garbage and bets heavy.

I am dealt . I am in the CO and I limp (bad idea, I know, but I am looking to pop the villain who loves to raise with garbage). Villain just completes his small blind. Pot is 4 way, unraised.

Flop comes . Villain bets $12, I call, everyone else folds. Turn is and he shoves his remaining $57. I think about it for a bit and call. River is the for the nuts.

He has been berating me for two days now about what a horrible play that was on my part and how it was such a massive suckout against his two pair. Well, the bet gave me about 1:5 to 1 and I needed slightly less than that to win. He was 55% and I was 45%

Villain has


Would you make the same call? Not saying it was an easy, snap call, but I don't think it was horrible either.

 

[Ronoh]

I’m guessing there must have been some preflop action for him to be able to get $57 in on the turn with only $24 going in on the flop?

You have every way to Broadway(plus) and the nut flush draw and it’s apparently an under pot sized all in... snap all for me but I’m not very good.

 

[naked_eskimo]

No preflop action. It was a limped pot. He was small blind. He does this huge over bet thing a lot. In fact, he is the main reason we haven't switched to pot limit for Omaha. I keep suggesting it, and he complains. I should just do it. It's my online poker site.

 

[Highli99]

Let him keep thinking you’re a donkey until he’s broke. That’s my advice.

 

[JMC9389]

Tell him to play better and study Omaha more.

That's a bet/call/shove on the turn all day long.

When I'm playing Omaha, I don't usually think that my hand is good unless I have a straight on a dry, non-flush drawn board or a flush or boat on a draw heavy board.

 

[Beakertwang]

A wrap and the nut flush draw? I can’t get my chips in the middle fast enough.

 

[Beakertwang]

Tell him to play better and study Omaha more.

Don’t tap the glass.

 

[naked_eskimo]

Here is the Poker Mavens hand history:


Hand #23190-101 - 2020-08-31 22:53:12
Game: NL Omaha (1 - 2000) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Brantford Poker
Table: Table#5 NL Omaha .50/$1 6 Max
Seat 2: MrsSmith (129.75)
Seat 3: Hero (158.25)
Seat 4: radarrayner (137)
Seat 6: Villain (70)
radarrayner has the dealer button
Villain posts small blind 0.50
MrsSmith posts big blind 1
** Hole Cards ** [4 players]
Hero calls 1
radarrayner calls 1
Villain calls 0.50
MrsSmith checks
** Flop ** [ ]
Villain bets 12
MrsSmith folds
Hero calls 12
radarrayner folds
** Turn ** []
Villain bets 57 (All-in)
Hero calls 57
** River ** []
** Pot Show Down ** []
Hero shows [] (a Flush, Ace high +JT83)
Villain shows [] (Two Pair, Tens and Eights +Q)
Hero wins Pot (142) with a Flush

 

[JMC9389]

Don’t tap the glass.

I suppose not. Keep taking his money until he wises up on his own.

 

[Beakertwang]

Here is the Poker Mavens hand history:


Hand #23190-101 - 2020-08-31 22:53:12
Game: NL Omaha (1 - 2000) - Blinds 0.50/1
Site: Brantford Poker
Table: Table#5 NL Omaha .50/$1 6 Max
Seat 2: MrsSmith (129.75)
Seat 3: Hero (158.25)
Seat 4: radarrayner (137)
Seat 6: Villain (70)
radarrayner has the dealer button
Villain posts small blind 0.50
MrsSmith posts big blind 1
** Hole Cards ** [4 players]
Hero calls 1
radarrayner calls 1
Villain calls 0.50
MrsSmith checks
** Flop ** [ ]
Villain bets 12
MrsSmith folds
Hero calls 12
radarrayner folds
** Turn ** []
Villain bets 57 (All-in)
Hero calls 57
** River ** []
** Pot Show Down ** []
Hero shows [] (a Flush, Ace high +JT83)
Villain shows [] (Two Pair, Tens and Eights +Q)
Hero wins Pot (142) with a Flush

Two ten of diamonds? I’m folding.

You may want to double-check your cards.

 

[naked_eskimo]

At the time of the hand he was getting pretty upset on Jitsi and I said I thought it was a good call. I was close to even money and he laid me 1:5 to 1 odds with his bet. He moaned about me sucking out (he had garbage preflop). I said I will run it through an odds calculator and send you the results tomorrow. Thinking it would provoke some constructive analysis. He didn't say anything at that time. I sent the results from Cardplayer odds calculator and reiterated why I thought it was a good call.

Well, he blew up at that and said he doesn't need me rubbing my horrible play in his face the next day when I sucked out so badly on him when he was all in. He even decided not to play last night because he is so annoyed. He's really being kind of a jerk about it.

 

[naked_eskimo]

Two ten of diamonds? I’m folding.

You may want to double-check your cards.

Oops, missed that. Thanks for pointing that out. Fixed now.

 

[JMC9389]

Jeez, you actually tried to offer constructive feedback on how he could play his hands better and he's throwing his toys around the room like a toddler? I'm licking my chops for the time he eventually comes back to play.

 

[naked_eskimo]

Tell him to play better and study Omaha more.

That's a bet/call/shove on the turn all day long.

When I'm playing Omaha, I don't usually think that my hand is good unless I have a straight on a dry, non-flush drawn board or a flush or boat on a draw heavy board.

Ditto. I don't even get that excited with a flopped set. It's more like a weak ace in hold'em. Well, maybe not that bad, but it's not fireworks time like it is in hold'em.


Omaha is super fun, but such a swing heavy game. Even four handed, I see very, very few hands won with anything less than a straight. Maybe 3 one pair hands over the course of a session will win a small pot. And that is four handed.

I rarely feel that comfortable with my hand until the river comes and I know the board hasn't paired. The poker gods love to see me smash my face against full houses a lot it seems.

 

[Highli99]

I never try to correct someone’s incorrect assumption about my play. I just agree with them and apologize for being a luck box.

 

[Frogzilla]

Apply “I didn’t even see the flush draw! Had a feeling I was gonna hit a straight” for maximum tilt

 

[Beakertwang]

At the time of the hand he was getting pretty upset on Jitsi and I said I thought it was a good call. I was close to even money and he laid me 1:5 to 1 odds with his bet. He moaned about me sucking out (he had garbage preflop). I said I will run it through an odds calculator and send you the results tomorrow. Thinking it would provoke some constructive analysis. He didn't say anything at that time. I sent the results from Cardplayer odds calculator and reiterated why I thought it was a good call.

Well, he blew up at that and said he doesn't need me rubbing my horrible play in his face the next day when I sucked out so badly on him when he was all in. He even decided not to play last night because he is so annoyed. He's really being kind of a jerk about it.

Unless this guy is such a good friend that you don’t want to take all his money, I’d just say “sorry, I got lucky, you’ll get me next time.” You want the guy who jams with a crappy two pair on a straight and flush drawing board to keep playing like he’s playing.

 

[JMC9389]

I never try to correct someone’s incorrect assumption about my play. I just agree with them and apologize for being a luck box.

I mean, if this was a good friend I've been playing with for many years and they came to me and asked how they could play better, I'll do my best to help them out.

At a competitive game or a casino though? I say poker sorry and get ready for the next hand.

 

[naked_eskimo]

I never try to correct someone’s incorrect assumption about my play. I just agree with them and apologize for being a luck box.

He's actually one of my best friends. Known him my entire adult life. He has a very rigid mindset around poker that never evolves. He is the player that I have mentioned in other threads that hates pocket aces. He is super results oriented in his thinking and is a total "feels" player.

I can try and point things out to him, like how the math disagrees very strongly with his "all in or fold" approach to pocket aces. Or how QQ73 rainbow is actually not a super omaha hand, but I can't seem to make any progress.

In my online group, he has by far the largest loss to date (since April). He does not adjust well.

He is pretty good at reading people though. Maybe that is why he hasn't adjusted that well to online play. He usually does pretty well when we were playing live. It's the exact opposite now that we're playing online. Now that we are playing Omaha, and he is not adjusting and likes to make it 8X preflop with stuff like QQ73, he just leaks money rapidly sometimes.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Easy call as everyone said. Tell him to stop betting into the luck box if he doesn’t want to lose his money!

 

[Darthhoodie]

You are ahead pre, you are ahead on the flop, and a slight dog/coin flip going into the river (45% to 55%). If hands like this didn't exist it wouldn't be gambling. Then when you consider EV you are something like +$6.9 on that call so not a bad play at all. If you are going to lose your mind when you lose a coin flip then maybe poker isn't for you, but I wouldn't tell him that, just let him stew so he plays bad next time.

 

[Highli99]

if this was a good friend I've been playing with for many years and they came to me and asked how they could play better, I

I’d do the same. In this situation the OP was berated by someone who played a hand poorly and was upset at results, while incorrectly thinking the other side played poorly. I allow those kinds to be blissfully angry at me. Correcting them just makes them leave the game, which is what happened here. Key is to let your ego die and keep making $$$.

 

[DrStrange]

As noted by others before me.

1) this seems like an acceptable call. More so vs a weaker player. Obviously it is high variance even if it is +EV.

2) Please don't argue with the villain. The right answer in my book goes something like " I was feeling lucky and took the chance".

This is a metagame test of skill - how important it is to Hero to be "right"? Would it be better to train villain how to think about the math in hopes he/she will agree you were right? Is Hero helped or harmed by villain's misunderstanding of math? Personally, I would rather be considered a donkey while I was piling up the chips than be thought of as "Mr. Poker Pro" who can't get action.

A fine job getting your money in good. The post game needs work in my opinion. -=- DrStrange

 

[Darthhoodie]

2) Please don't argue with the villain. The right answer in my book goes something like " I was feeling lucky and took the chance".

^^^ This is good advice

 

[naked_eskimo]

As noted by others before me.

1) this seems like an acceptable call. More so vs a weaker player. Obviously it is high variance even if it is +EV.

2) Please don't argue with the villain. The right answer in my book goes something like " I was feeling lucky and took the chance".

This is a metagame test of skill - how important it is to Hero to be "right"? Would it be better to train villain how to think about the math in hopes he/she will agree you were right? Is Hero helped or harmed by villain's misunderstanding of math? Personally, I would rather be considered a donkey while I was piling up the chips than be thought of as "Mr. Poker Pro" who can't get action.

A fine job getting your money in good. The post game needs work in my opinion. -=- DrStrange

That is very insightful. Thank you.

He does tend to get pretty annoying when he loses a pot. He likes to complain about everyone else's bad play, but when he sucks out, there is always a reason why it's suddenly a different situation. In fact, one other player has privately complained to me about it. It's my site, as I mentioned earlier.

Part of me wants him to understand it better so that he doesn't get verbally insulting about how others play. But I think I will take your advice and just let it be in the future.

Part of me actually thought my email with the odds calculator results would go a different way. I imagined a fun, nerdy conversation about how crazy the odds can be in a game of Omaha. Instead I got the thanks for rubbing your horrible play in my face, asshole response.

 

[Darthhoodie]

Smile, wave, and scoop the pot

 

[bsdunbar1]

My standard answer when someone asks me how do I make such a horrible call -

 

[Jimulacrum]

1. The call was fine.

2. Your friend seems like a bit of an asshole.

3. If you think it would be better for the game to be PL, you shouldn't keep it NL just because your know-nothing friend wants to bomb off his money overbetting pots.

 

[CraigT78]

I call that as well.

As for the game, you can lose your ass just as good in PLO, why the hell are you playing NLO?

 

[naked_eskimo]

I don't want to play NLO, but since I started my online poker site I have always tried to avoid pushing my preferences on the player base. Whenever I propose switching to PLO, I get strong resistance from this one player and a general shrug from the rest. This leaves me feeling like I would be making a change that was mostly driven by my preference alone.