PAHWM - 4 handed ITM at monthly tourney (1 Viewer)

[Chippy McChiperson]

Somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, but I know the SB very well, and I can assure you he is not a WWW I veteran,
let alone a "much much much older gentleman"

Well not compared to Methuselah maybe

 

[JustinInMN]

Anyway, hero checks, knowing villain will likely continue, and then hero's plan is to shove. Things don't go as planned, however. Villain shoves all in for 54k into a 17.5k pot. What should we do?

This is very player dependent, but I think we call.

I just find it unlikely villain would do this with JJ+, but it would help if hero had some confirmation of this read. Based on the description, villain is likely aware of the pot size and is just trying to lay a price so poor hero will have to fold most holdings here. Villain also is not putting JJ+ in hero's range I assume so villain may think Jx is about the best hero could have.

Hero raised button with 22, Villain called with ?? Villain checked, hero continued on an insignificant board (probably something like 953), Villain raised, and hero shoved. Villain folded and showed an ace and said you must have hit, hero shows him 22 and told him he has a tell.

Hahaha. Some players are so aggressive the tell is they move their chips in the pot every time they bluff, and slow play every time they have it. This might inform my position to call it off here.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

This is very player dependent, but I think we call.

I just find it unlikely villain would do this with JJ+, but it would help if hero had some confirmation of this read. Based on the description, villain is likely aware of the pot size and is just trying to lay a price so poor hero will have to fold most holdings here. Villain also is not putting JJ+ in hero's range I assume so villain may think Jx is about the best hero could have.


Hahaha. Some players are so aggressive the tell is they move their chips in the pot every time they bluff, and slow play every time they have it. This might inform my position to call it off here.

It wasn't a pot sizing tell, in fact I noticed the tell when he checked, not when he put chips into the pot, and just went with my gut.

 

[JustinInMN]

I thought suited j4 was right around the 50th percentile of starting hands.

To be honest, I had not consulted a ranking chart when I said it's lower half. This chart has J4s at 86 of 169 combinations (counting all pairs, offsuit combos, and suited combos as the same class), which would have it at 49% above the bottom.

https://www.pokernews.com/strategy/...ts-ranking-the-169-hands-in-hold-em-21325.htm

So closer to the middle than I thought, but I still say low enough that you can wait for a better spot, especially against a guy that can take 2/3 of your stack here.

 

[Highli99]

Somewhat irrelevant to this discussion, but I know the SB very well, and I can assure you he is not a WWW I veteran,
let alone a "much much much older gentleman" although he is old enough to be Chippy's and Highli's father

Agreed, although he remembers The War he wasn't quite old enough to serve at the time. However, he does refer to Doyle Brunson as “Kid Poker”

 

[grebe]

For all you advocating to fold pre, I seriously considered it. I looked back up at the OP and realized I forgot to mention that Villain raised literally every button that got to him unraised since we were at the final table, if that changes your thinking.

Important information here. I probably squeeze here a bunch now. J4s would be a consideration. I still say folding > 3 bet > calling

Anyway, hero checks, knowing villain will likely continue, and then hero's plan is to shove. Things don't go as planned, however. Villain shoves all in for 54k into a 17.5k pot. What should we do?

sigh fold.

 

[JMC9389]

Important information here. I probably squeeze here a bunch now. J4s would be a consideration. I still say folding > 3 bet > calling


sigh fold.

Even as played, I think this is a fold. Either way ahead or way behind. Sets and overpairs are in a button's raised range. They can really have anything here. Would this be a villain to shove with just two overs like AK, AQ suited, etc?

Regardless of how loose the villain is, calling an all in here with top pair and a bad kicker is very thin.

 

[bergs]

Even I fold that pre.

As played, I don’t bother with the checkraise. Bet 75% pot and bail if you get raised unless villain has a history of reraising light.

 

[JustinInMN]

Sets and overpairs are in a button's raised range. They can really have anything here.

The reason I think this is a call is because I am not willing to put villain on "anything" here when villain could clearly get value with stronger hands at a different sizing. I would need to know this about villain to be sure, but I am just having trouble giving villain credit for super strength there. Given the history, this feels like villain wants to bluff at this, but can't risk hero pushing him in.

 

[JMC9389]

Even I fold that pre.

As played, I don’t bother with the checkraise. Bet 75% pot and bail if you get raised unless villain has a history of reraising light.

I think this is how I would have played it. This flop smacks the range of hands hero would defend with in the blinds. Lead out and then if you get shoved on, cry fold.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Even I fold that pre.

As played, I don’t bother with the checkraise. Bet 75% pot and bail if you get raised unless villain has a history of reraising light.

Umm hero has a face card no way you're folding pre

 

[bergs]

Umm hero has a face card no way you're folding pre

Ummm if I made the final table I’m playing well and I absolutely don’t bring my cash game bullshit to this situation.

That said, we’ve obviously entered Fantasy Bergland when I said “made” and “final table”.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

I think this is how I would have played it. This flop smacks the range of hands hero would defend with in the blinds. Lead out and then if you get shoved on, cry fold.

Not a fan of the donk betting. It's basically setting off alarm bells saying "I hit a piece of the flop, but if you really want to you can bet me off the hand"

 

[JMC9389]

Not a fan of the donk betting. It's basically setting off alarm bells saying "I hit a piece of the flop, but if you really want to you can bet me off the hand"

There's positives and negatives to a lead out or a check raise. Check calling a shove is just about the worst potential outcome. Hero just isn't beating much besides a bluff shove even with top pair. This is why I would fold pre I'd absolutely hate this spot.

 

[grebe]

The reason I think this is a call is because I am not willing to put villain on "anything" here when villain could clearly get value with stronger hands at a different sizing. I would need to know this about villain to be sure, but I am just having trouble giving villain credit for super strength there. Given the history, this feels like villain wants to bluff at this, but can't risk hero pushing him in.

The reason I fold is that even if the V is bluffing, he can have pretty good equity against us (two overs is 25% equity, for instance). If he is not bluffing, we are truly fucked in a hand we should not have been in to start with. Deep in a tournament, I would prefer to be doing the betting than calling. I am OK with some really thin bets, but calling is a different story. I am not confident in this enough to say you are wrong.....this may be a leak for me folding top pair. Like I said though, I like a fold pre here anyways.

 

[JustinInMN]

Umm hero has a face card no way you're folding pre

Well if that's your hand chart, the pf call is obvious .

 

[CraigT78]

This is a tough spot now. In my league a call would be absolutely player dependent. If my experience with the player that they will put it all on the line with air, I'm calling. But I've got other guys who would still fold bottom set here to agression.

Flip a coin - heads I call, tails I fold.

Call.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Well if that's your hand chart, the pf call is obvious .

No that's Berg's hand chart lol

 

[JustinInMN]

Not a fan of the donk betting. It's basically setting off alarm bells saying "I hit a piece of the flop, but if you really want to you can bet me off the hand"

I agree, I really hate bet-fold as a line here. By playing pre, you are pretty much committing to going with this if you make a jack or better. It's just too hard for me to come up with a balanced strategy if I call widely from the blinds. (And I do call widely, just maybe not quite as much as this hand , but I am probably going to defend as weak as maybe 86s for example.) I really just prefer to check 100%.

I just have a hard time thinking villain is balanced on this overshove here. And if he is overshoving 100%, then a pair of jacks is ahead of most villain holdings.

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

This is a tough spot now. In my league a call would be absolutely player dependent. If my experience with the player that they will put it all on the line with air, I'm calling. But I've got other guys who would still fold bottom set here to agression.

Flip a coin - heads I call, tails I fold.

Call.

Who carries coins these days?

 

[CraigT78]

Who carries coins these days?

What do you use to make coin flip decisions? An app?

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

What do you use to make coin flip decisions? An app?

I honestly can't recall the last time I used an external method to make a decision.

 

[JustinInMN]

The reason I fold is that even if the V is bluffing, he can have pretty good equity against us (two overs is 25% equity, for instance). If he is not bluffing, we are truly fucked in a hand we should not have been in to start with.

This is a very good point, and denying this equity is the reason I would have preferred to check-raise, but the villain denied this opportunity.

I am OK with some really thin bets, but calling is a different story. I am not confident in this enough to say you are wrong.....this may be a leak for me folding top pair. Like I said though, I like a fold pre here anyways.

This makes sense. I think against an aggressive opponent, this may well be a leak if you aren't going with flops where you make top pair. That's usually a pretty clear sign of overfolding. If you aren't going with top pair, you are folding all but the rarest flops that make two-pair-plus, and maybe some combo-flush-and-over draws. That said, you're right that it's a very good reason to be more selective preflop. If you recognize you are only going beyond the flop on rare hits, it's another sign to fold pre.

 

[JustinInMN]

What do you use to make coin flip decisions? An app?

Coin flip apps are as rigged as online poker.

 

[CraigT78]

I honestly can't recall the last time I used an external method to make a decision.

That's very exploitable.

 

[CraigT78]

Coin flip apps are as rigged as online poker.

Online poker is definitely rigged. Can confirm.

I like to flip the coin in full view of the villain. You can't exploit me if I don't even know what I'm going to do yet.

 

[Ben8257]

Stop picking on EDIT** "old people" Bill! Lol. Super agreisve player sounds none other than EDIT** P... ! (Some guy I met in a bar once!)

Call... let him show you the "4 ti... boobies" nice had sir, screw that damn EDIT "rubber card capper that in mo way was in a shape that would hint at anyone on this forum" and see you in the cash game in about 20 minutes! Lol

 

[Moxie Mike]

PRE:

I'm a big proponent of defending the BB with a wide range. You don't want to cultivate a tight image at this stage of the game - it's too exploitable. Unfortunately, J-4 is a little too wide. You're just going to be folding the flop way too often. If you were a little deeper maybe you could justify defending this wide but in this spot, it's a fold.

POST:

Checking or betting is both fine. I don't know that one option is superior to the other. I think I like a check better - a savvy opponent should conclude that this is the type of flop that misses most of your range and will c-bet a large percentage of the time. Betting is OK too - it's always good to try to extract value from what is likely the best hand. But betting is problematic if the button calls. On a flop like this, it's going to be difficult to know where you stand.

POST #2: I don't think you can fold here. If we reduce this decision down to ranges, you'll be ahead a large percentage of the time. When you're behind you should still have enough equity to suck out here and there. You have to know from history that the button would only jam in this spot with a hand that beats yours. As described, he's going to have a medium pocket pair, or ace-hi or 4-5 for a draw a large % of the time here. Hard to find a fold with this many possibilities. This is a call for me.

 

[grebe]

If you recognize you are only going beyond the flop on rare hits, it's another sign to fold pre.

Let me be very clear....betting/raising is much much much different than calling. I would BET/RAISE here with hands as weak as A high.

 

[WedgeRock]

Not a fan of the donk betting. It's basically setting off alarm bells saying "I hit a piece of the flop, but if you really want to you can bet me off the hand"

He can't bet you off the hand if you donk shove the flop.