PAHWM: Handsome Player Faces Several Flop Decisions (1 Viewer)

NotRealNameNoSir

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Alright party people, you know the drill, majority of my play and analysis is with newer players and is very read-based, BUT I came in to today thinking specifically about ICM. For those that don't know, ICM is the value of chips in a tournament, instead of $1 = $1, it tries to take into account the value of surviving as long as possible to make more money. Instead of just going for gold I wanted to push myself to make the correct decision with the information given.

I helped run a tournament, went very smoothly and really enjoyed it. 22 players, top 4 get paid and its a mixture of players ranging from bra-a-a-and new to very comfortable. No one is a real crusher, but some were much more comfortable than others.

Hero's profile: I was one of the only players no one else knew, I was tournament director as well as dedicated dealer for our table so that changes perspectives. Instead of just a younger aggro player, I came in thinking that position would allow me to bluff a little more and wanted to lean into the comfortable, competent facade (yes, facade, I'm clueless). Tournament was a social affair, they play lots of cash games but I expected that many of them wouldn't adjust well to tournaments especially after the rebuy period (2.5ish hours in).


I'm going to give a few scenarios, obviously they're from the same tournament but try to take each one as separate. All names are fake.

First hand:
30 minutes in, level 2, average stack is roughly 120 BB. Very very early, no bust outs.

Hero: kind of scatter brained but teaching everyone how to shuffle and cut for me while also running the computer/seating/buyins. I've taken a few pots and voluntarily showed a nut flush, I don't want them thinking that I'm bullying, just got lucky!

Jacklyn: Brand new to our table, just moved from the other room. She has a clutch with a bedazzled Ace of spades and big sunglasses on with her wine glass. Not sure what to expect but she's played before, peeking cards comfortably with one hand. Two hands previously I had reraised her on a monotone flop and she folded after clicking her tongue.

Tommy: Already suspicious of my preflop opens and jokingly rolls his eyes because when I'm button he's big blind. Comfortable with poker.

The rest don't matter for now.

Cards dealt out, 3 limps to hero

Hero on the button: :ac::9s:
Going to blow past this, Hero raises to 2 BB. You can comment on my sizing but the limps mean little to nothing so far, they're expected. Could be anything, really, and I wanted to use my position early in the tournament. This is already exploitive, I had seen 2 of the 3 players fold to just a minraise and I just wanted to thin the herd. Had they been calling I would've been betting higher but I wanted to keep in their weird calls, oftentimes folding the flop when they miss and RARELY betting without a pair.

Jacklyn in SB: calls 2 BB after a quick tank. She was thinking a lot, might've been considering a raise, didn't seem like she was gonna fold.

Thomas: Calls quickly and rechecks his cards for longer than usual, hadn't seen him do that before, dunno.

Flop, 6 BB:
:5d::ah::as:

Jacklyn: Checks after a few seconds. Not too noticeable but definitely still some processing power, it wasn't like a distracted time, she was watching the cards come out and then lightly tapped table.

Thomas: Checks quickly, is done with the hand. Exhaled almost like a sigh, I don't think I'm getting much out of him.

Hero: ??


Second hand:
2 hours in, level 6ish, stacks now have larger rangers to them, roughly 20-60 BB. Been a few bust outs in the tournament, there is tourney pressure not many of the players have dealt with very often.

Hero's been dealing and running things comfortably and has shown lots of aggression, some warranted some not, and has an above average stack, covers everyone but one player not involved. Slow played a flopped straight until a reg shoved and the table discussed how I didn't bet for two streets for a good 5 minutes. Great advertising!

Richie: has a casino hat on and is one of the more comfortable players. He's tried to hero call a few times on the river when it wasn't needed and was surprised at the opponent's holdings.

Thomas: same from last time, he's got a bigger stack, picked off a bluff from me with middle pair, I made sure to compliment his play.

7 handed
UTG folds
Richie, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB. I read the raise but don't think he's sizing based on hand strength, maybe plays more cash and likes the 3, dunno.
HJ: Folds.
Hero, CO with :ts::8s:
Hero: Think this is a call, I'm not overly worried about the players left to act and I like a one-gapper. Player to my left has his cards in his hand so I'll have position once we see a flop. I call.
Button folds
Thomas, SB: thoughtlessly calls. Not a monster.
BB Folds.

Flop, 10BB: :ks::jh::4s:
Thomas: Leads out for 2 BB. Honestly hadn't seen this before. Its not KK, capped at two pair. He's been eyeing me, this could be a, stop-the-goddamn-dealer-from-C-betting bet.

Richie: Calls after some thought, and immediately looks at me.

Hero: ??


Third Hand:
Final table! Near the bubble, 7 players left with 4 paid. I've got the big stack but a player two to my left has me covered, mostly out of an amazing streak of luck.

Hero: Do I start drinking bourbon now, or wait until later?
 
First hand: a 1/3 por bet is totally fine here.

Second hand: fold pre, as played, call post flop

Third hand: Drink the bourbon
 
Hand 1: isn’t the whole reason we develop an aggro image to get value in spots like this? Standard c-bet.

Hand 2: fold pre but I’m a nit :). Feel like this donk is always a weak top pair that doesn’t want to see more cards. The call is more concerning imo. Probably getting the right price to call and try to hit. You can prob get SB to fold to aggression on turn and river, but the original raiser is a problem.

Hand 3: DRINK
 
SHIT, A* big stack lol. Player has been getting incredibly lucky and has a hand ranking chart in her hand the whole tournament, once in a lifetime horseshoe for sure.
First hand:
30 minutes in, level 2, average stack is roughly 120 BB. Very very early, no bust outs.

Cards dealt out, 3 limps to hero

Hero on the button: :ac::9s:
Going to blow past this, Hero raises to 2 BB.

Jacklyn in SB: calls 2 BB after a quick tank. She was thinking a lot, might've been considering a raise, didn't seem like she was gonna fold.

Thomas: Calls quickly and rechecks his cards for longer than usual, hadn't seen him do that before, dunno.

Flop, 6 BB:
:5d::ah::as:

Jacklyn: Checks after a few seconds. Not too noticeable but definitely still some processing power, it wasn't like a distracted time, she was watching the cards come out and then lightly tapped table.

Thomas: Checks quickly, is done with the hand. Exhaled almost like a sigh, I don't think I'm getting much out of him.

Hero: Bets 2 BB. Like y'all said above, cashing in on the "he always bets" vibe.

Jacklyn's big sunglasses looks down at my bet, then her chips, then says "I'm all in." She's got about 70 BB.

Thomas: folds immediately, doubt he had a 5.

Hero: ??


Second hand:

2 hours in, level 6ish, stacks now have larger rangers to them, roughly 20-60 BB. Been a few bust outs in the tournament, there is tourney pressure not many of the players have dealt with very often.

7 handed
UTG folds
Richie, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB. I read the raise but don't think he's sizing based on hand strength, maybe plays more cash and likes the 3, dunno.
HJ: Folds.
Hero, CO with :ts::8s:
Hero: Think this is a call, I'm not overly worried about the players left to act and I like a one-gapper. Player to my left has his cards in his hand so I'll have position once we see a flop. I call.
Button folds
Thomas, SB: thoughtlessly calls. Not a monster.
BB Folds.

Flop, 10BB: :ks::jh::4s:
Thomas: Leads out for 2 BB. Honestly hadn't seen this before. Its not KK, capped at two pair. He's been eyeing me, this could be a, stop-the-goddamn-dealer-from-C-betting bet.

Richie: Calls after some thought, and immediately looks at me.

Hero: I called with the plan to raise many turns. I'll agree with @mdt11 , the look was out of place, he was thinking the same thing, I think we both could disregard Thomas's donk lead but didn't want to reopen.

Surprised, you both fold a one-gapper mid tournament in position? I'm kind of nitty myself, maybe I was on a bit of winner's tilt or it could just be some exploitive play. I knew I could see a flop for just that price and deemed it worthy.

Turn, 16 BB, stacks around 30 BB effective. Getting lil scarier.
:ks::jh::4s::7c:

Thomas: leads again for 2 BB.

Richie: Looks at me for 5ish seconds, then folds to the 2 BB. No idea what he was thinking I or Thomas had.

Hero: ??


Third Hand:

Final table! Near the bubble, 7 players left with 4 paid. I've got the big stack but a player two to my left has me covered, mostly out of an amazing streak of luck. Few very short stacks (2 players below 12 BB).

Hero: Turns down the bourbon, I've been watching my consumption this year but I think this was a mistake, there was already quite a few people rooting against me and maybe this would've softened it a bit. Around 30 BB.

Horseshoe: This is the luckbox! She got better at picking up patterns as she played but this was one of the first times she's ever played, crazy heater. Closer to 40ish BB, stacks in a pile.

Michael: Late 40s gentleman, quiet but clearly a competent player. Corrected the pot size at one point so I knew he was tracking it and betting accordingly. Seems ICM aware, he's been folding like crazy for the last hour and getting closer to the money. 20 BB.

UTG, UTG+1, HJ, all fold.

Michael in the CO: Limps. I had only seen him do this once or twice before, he was pretty tight so not super scary alarm bells but "hey this is a deviation" notice appears over his head, he usually raises on the larger size especially with big pairs.

Button folds.

Hero in the SB, bourbonless: :as::jd:, with callhappy luckbox in the BB next to act.

Hero: ?? Do we just call or are we raising here? I wasn't sure, as I said I was ICM-focused at this table but also wanting to use my edge. I'm asking questions and being silly in the thread but felt very comfortable with my stack and had room to work with, wasn't sure if this was a spot I wanted to get into out of position to the luckiest player in the room and an odd limp.
 
After action revealed

1st hand: wtf. Crying call. If she has A-rag, you're 9 is good. Same with pocket pair.
2nd hand: raise to 4BB
3rd hand: why aren't you drinking?
 
Hand 1: snap call. I’ve seen players spazz here will all kinds of weird stuff. But I’m also a calling station.

Hand 2: agree with @allforcharity on the click back but maybe like 8 BBs

Hand 3: raise to 3 BBs or so and fold to jam
 
Hand 1: Snap call. If you're outkicked you're outkicked. I'm not folding trips there, ever.

Hand 2: You pick up more outs with the 7. A 9 gets you a straight in addition to the flush draw. You're obviously on a draw with your flop bet. I raise here to 6 BB's to isolate.

Hand 3: I hate that starting hand. I'm going to bow out of this one.
 
Hand 1,
I don't like the C bet here, what are we getting called by that is not a trouble for us? I would always check and hope that villain picks up a draw or a pair. When we are raised here by shove it is either very strong aka a better Ace, A5 or 55. Or it is amazing bluff spot. I think Im not risking 70BB here on an Ace with a 9 kicker. A10, AJ, AQ, AK, A5, 55 all have us beat. Sure there is a possibility that villain has a worse Ace but then we will get a chance to empty her later if she continues to play like that.

Hand 2.
I like 1 gap hands as well, we picked up an extra draw on the turn so I think this is a call but keep in mind that this hand is a hand you want to hit and get value of. This is a very expensive hand to chase as we always might be dead. Did you hit the flop? you still have 10 high. If you hit the flush on the river most people are getting a way and you are not getting paid that much. So you are chasing for what?

hand 3.
Small raise and fold to jam.
 
Appreciate the inputs, I'm not going to tag everyone but I want to speak to the points. Love this community's thoughts on these situations.

Hand 1:
I appreciate the differing thoughts and that's what I bounced around in my head. I don't think she's brand new to the game, she handles cards fine, checks without that panicky look of someone who doesn't know what the bet is, and generally just sits comfortably. My first thought HELL YES I HAVE TRIP ACES I WIN, but then I took a few seconds. Not a big tank but I had been imagining this exact type of scenario on the drive over, that's why I had ICM buzzing in my head; I have a big advantage over most of the field, should I be risking 70% of my stack when I might be near dead? If I had called and looked at AJ, I would've been kicking myself for a long long time.

She took her time both streets, I don't think she has AK or AQ or KK/QQ, but AJ, AT, A5, 55 are all fine to play this way. I didn't have reads on her yet. This could be a spazz, that was my first thought, aggressive noob knows she can't win and hopes I don't have an Ace. But I think a 9 is good enough.

Called, and she flipped over :qc::tc: for the crazed bluff lol, good call @mdt11 . Definitely helped my tournament chances!

For those saying snap call, can't blame you, BUT is it a snap call with A4? A6? Is there a threshold where you're more worried about kickers? And would we do the same first hand of the tournament, 200 BB deep?

Genuinely curious, I try to play exploitatively and I was nervous about losing a lot of my pressure early in a tournament. It was a weird spot because I snap call a noob who is more likely to have a worse Ace but I thought this player either had big ace/full house or complete bluff, and the pot was tiny compared to her jam.


Hand 2:
2 hours in, level 6ish, stacks now have larger rangers to them, roughly 20-60 BB.

7 handed
UTG folds
Richie, UTG+1 raises to 3 BB. I read the raise but don't think he's sizing based on hand strength, maybe plays more cash and likes the 3, dunno.
HJ: Folds.
Hero, CO with :ts::8s:
Hero calls
Button folds
Thomas, SB: thoughtlessly calls. Not a monster.
BB Folds.

Flop, 10BB: :ks::jh::4s:
Thomas: Leads out for 2 BB. Honestly hadn't seen this before. Its not KK, capped at two pair. He's been eyeing me, this could be a, stop-the-goddamn-dealer-from-C-betting bet.

Richie: Calls after some thought, and immediately looks at me.

Hero: I called

Turn, 16 BB, stacks around 30 BB effective. Getting lil scarier.
:ks::jh::4s::7c:

Thomas: leads again for 2 BB.

Richie: Looks at me for 5ish seconds, then folds to the 2 BB. No idea what he was thinking I or Thomas had.

Hero: Raise to 7 BB
My thoughts were that Thomas was calling and betting wide because he was responding to my aggression. That's all fine and good preflop and cbetting a flop, but I don't think he has a monster here. He bet the same amount on flop and turn and that doesn't scream strength that screamed "I don't want to bet but feel I should because otherwise you will." This is why I smelled weakness.

Thomas folds after a minute. Richie actually said "yup. Mhm."

I wanted to analyze why I did this. I think it was a large part of my stack, but I really do think betting the same small amount on both streets is telling. I'm trying not to be results oriented, obviously happy that it worked. I would've immediately folded to a jam or weird reraise, but I think this percent was fine.

Let me know if you disagree, I don't have an entrenched viewpoint. We weren't yet at the end game, not many bustouts had happened but lots of people were getting shorter and shorter and everyone was playing tighter.


Hand 3:
Final table! Near the bubble, 7 players left with 4 paid. I've got the big stack but a player two to my left has me covered, mostly out of an amazing streak of luck. Few very short stacks (2 players below 12 BB).

Horseshoe: This is the luckbox! She got better at picking up patterns as she played but this was one of the first times she's ever played, crazy heater. Closer to 40ish BB, stacks in a pile.

Michael: Late 40s gentleman, quiet but clearly a competent player. Corrected the pot size at one point so I knew he was tracking it and betting accordingly. Seems ICM aware, he's been folding like crazy for the last hour and getting closer to the money. 20 BB.

UTG, UTG+1, HJ, all fold.

Michael in the CO: Limps

Button folds.

Hero in the SB, bourbonless: :as::jd:, with callhappy luckbox in the BB next to act.

Hero: Raise to 2 BB. Good call all, probably should've skipped this part.

Horseshoe and Michael both call quickly. They're used to me raising preflop and probably expected it, I was overthinking Michael's limp. His range is bananas in my head as of now, no idea if he's limping Aces to trap me at some point or wanting to see a flop with low suited connectors or something.

FLOP, 6 BB. :8d::8h::5h:

Horseshoe is analyzing her hand ranking chart. Not out of the ordinary lol, she looked at it a lot. This wasn't an angle!!! She asks how much she can bet. I told her 1 BB is the minimum, or she can bet as much as - nope, soon as I said the 1 BB amount she pushed that many chips out. I've seen her do this with everything from flopped quads to bottom pair.
HS bets 1 BB

Michael calls 1 BB nonchalantly. He has seemed to play very honestly, not surprised if this is a straight or flush draw.

Hero ?? Do I bother calling the 1 BB or just get out of the way? My thoughts were that if I hit an Ace I can probably just pay 1 BB per street to get to showdown, but there's serious reverse implied odds if my dumbass hits an Ace and doesn't believe that horseshoe flopped a full house or something.

Not gonna hold it up, I folded. Didn't want to get myself in a tough situation and I was tired, dealing/tourney directing/playing/banking for 8ish hours. I didn't want my ego to be involved, both players were playing honestly, bubble coming up and stacks were generally shallow; two of the smallest stacks weren't in the hand with us. Again back to ICM aware, I might've had the best hand but wasn't worth the risk.

Hand 1: Threshold for snap call? A4? A6?
Hand 2: Weird bluff? I don't know solver-land, is this a fine spot? Did I risk too much?
Hand 3: Did I take the easy way out or just make a smart play?

Thanks people. I'm still bad but this was a fun day. Lowest point was coming back with 3 BB after dinner break, shoved UTG with AKo. Guy in the SB is staring at his chips and looks up at me, locks eyes for 10 seconds. I want a call! I don't know if what he saw changed his mind or what but he called over half his stack with T8s. Very good result when I needed it most.
 
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Haha I am unreasonably happy that I basically nailed the first two (well, I was 1 BB off on the click back sizing in hand 2 :)). Well played.

H1: I think you're threshold is any A against this type of villain.
H2: I had typed out "In solver land you fold pre" but it doesn't look so straightforward. T8s in the CO vs UTG1 raise to 2.1 BBs is a call all the way down to 25 BBs. Vs 3 BBs, and exploitatively (is V open raising Q8s?) you can fold pre. Given you're fully in exploitative land by the turn, I think if anything you may have risked too little, but I think they'll be less sensitive to bet sizing at this point in the hand. Min raise will make them suspicious, but going a little bigger will have them terrified given our read of the flop donk.

Hand 3: This is why I think we need to make it at least 3 BB pre. Don't want to go three ways out of position, and ICM works both ways so we can probably get at least one of them to fold. As played with a bet and call, just fold.

Fun hands! Thanks for sharing.
 
Haha I am unreasonably happy that I basically nailed the first two (well, I was 1 BB off on the click back sizing in hand 2 :)). Well played.

H1: I think you're threshold is any A against this type of villain.
H2: I had typed out "In solver land you fold pre" but it doesn't look so straightforward. T8s in the CO vs UTG1 raise to 2.1 BBs is a call all the way down to 25 BBs. Vs 3 BBs, and exploitatively (is V open raising Q8s?) you can fold pre. Given you're fully in exploitative land by the turn, I think if anything you may have risked too little, but I think they'll be less sensitive to bet sizing at this point in the hand. Min raise will make them suspicious, but going a little bigger will have them terrified given our read of the flop donk.

Hand 3: This is why I think we need to make it at least 3 BB pre. Don't want to go three ways out of position, and ICM works both ways so we can probably get at least one of them to fold. As played with a bet and call, just fold.

Fun hands! Thanks for sharing.
Appreciate you playing along but a big hearty GO DAWGS.

Hand 1: I think you're right but I'm not 100% there. If I had A2s in this situation and flop trip Aces, and someone raises 70 BB into 8ish BB, you have to take time. Any newbie might shove any Ace and now we have the smallest possible. Are we risking most of our stack so early in a tournament where we have such a general advantage? If she shows 55, can I just nod and say "nice hand" and pretend I couldn't have gotten away from it? I dunno, in a cash game its stupid easy but in a tournament I keep coming back to it. I think the live reads pushed me to call but I was on the fence.

Hand 3: you might be right but the horseshoe seemed completely inelastic, if she's calling 1 BB she'd call 4 BB lol, a bet seemed a bet and I didn't know how to read the other player's limp.

I really had been imagining this scenario on the drive over, flops a monster and faces a huge jam early. Just very glad to be on this side of it, I think if I had called and seen AJ it would've felt unnecessary.
 

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