Patriots fans (and non-Patriots fans I suppose) (2 Viewers)

So if you apologize for being a scumbag, its ok? They were in victory formation and the Seahawks were upset so they wanted to start a brawl.
 
WTF are you talking about? They were knealing on the ball. The game wasn't over, and it's the Super Bowl. The Seahawks were going hard at it until the end. The Pats didn't like that and expected them to roll over. If you believe Bruce Irvin he said he was protecting his teammate and was ejected because he threw a punch way after the scuffle started.

Look at the video and tell me exactly where it started. You can't.
 
Sorry this was just too easy

Capture.jpg
 
ChipEnvy said:
Seems #teampatriots are more excited that they were able to beat the Seahawks than actually winning the Superbowl.

Stay Classy Pats!
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I love this. ChipEnvy, you think it is unclassy for the patriots and their fans to hold up a photo of Richard Sherman from when he was mocking Revis on National TV for getting burned on a TD? I actually like Richard Sherman, and don't think he would take offense to this, but isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

FWIW - In regards to the Bitch Mode tee-shirt, I think thats more of a slogan than a shot at Lynch. Im sure every Pats fan at the parade would love to see him taking handoffs from Brady next year.
 
In the court of public opinion (outside of New England) Brady is guilty. Will he get suspended? Probably not, but his reputation is now tarnished. Is he still a first-ballot hall-of-famer? I would think so. I really doubt underinflated balls had that much of an effect, but if Brady took the risk of circumventing the rules, doesn't that at least say something about his character, if nothing else?
 
Seahawks PED Suspension List

John Moffitt: Suspended four games in 2011
Brandon Browner: Suspended four games in 2012
Winston Guy: Suspended four games in 2012
Allen Barbre: Suspended four games in 2012
Bruce Irvin: Suspended four games in 2013
Richard Sherman: Tested positive in 2012. Result overturned due to a problem with the collection procedure.





#StayClassySeattle
 
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manamongkids said:
I guess the NFL can accuse people/teams of probably doing something and it comes across as fact

#SaltySeahawks
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I think you don't quite understand that "more probable than not" are pretty strong words in a legal sense. I'm not a lawyer obviously (kind of wish I was sometimes), so I could be wrong, but I don't think you can make a statement like that without having your ducks in a row. The text messages exchanged between the two equipment guys should be enough for the average person to understand that something was definitely up. The words "more probable than not" are used because there is not absolute proof, like maybe a video tape of the bathroom the ball guy is seen ducking into for a minute and a half, that it happened. For anybody, Patriots fans included, to deny that anything shady happened is choosing to ignore what facts there are.

That being said, I don't think it has much, if anything, to do with how good the Patriots are. They don't need under inflated footballs to win in my opinion, Bellicheck is one of the best football thinkers there has ever been. I think that him not calling a timeout after the hawks got stopped on 1st down is what won them that game. It's all old news now, but him not calling a time out puts the hawks in a bad spot because of how they mismanaged their timeouts on that drive. I think there were better pass plays that could have been called (roll out read option, pass to the back corner), and I definitely put a ton of blame on Russel for making a bad throw...but Bellicheck created that situation by letting the clock run and putting his goal line package on the field. A lot of other coaches on his side of the ball would call a timeout in that situation, but not him. I think that's how they win football games, along with having one of the top ten qb's of all time, they don't need to do this stupid shit.
 
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12thMan said:
I think you don't quite understand that "more probable than not" is pretty strong words in a legal sense. I'm not a lawyer obviously (kind of wish I was sometimes), so I could be wrong, but I don't think you can make a statement like that without having your ducks in a row. The text messages exchanged between the two equipment guys should be enough for the average person to understand that something was definitely up. The words "more probable than not" are used because there is not absolute proof, like maybe a video camera of the bathroom the ball guy is seen ducking into for a minute and a half, that it happened. For anybody, Patriots fans included, to deny that anything shady happened now is choosing to ignore what fact there are.
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lololol

I will be the sole defender here vs all the Seahawks and Colts fans, or the anti-Patriots fans.

I dont think you understand how legal terms work either, in the court of law, more probable than not means literally NOTHING. The entire basis of court, especially criminal cases, if thats what we are comparing this against, it has to be proven without a reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Which they are not.
 
I also heard that 4 of the 5 colts balls collected from the AFC championship game were found to be underinflated. That won't matter though, as the headlines are all that people read anymore.
 
manamongkids said:
lololol

I will be the sole defender here vs all the Seahawks and Colts fans, or the anti-Patriots fans.

I dont think you understand how legal terms work either, in the court of law, more probable than not means literally NOTHING. The entire basis of court, especially criminal cases, if thats what we are comparing this against, it has to be proven without a reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Which they are not.
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I definitely don't understand how legal terms work, I'm probably wrong, it all has to with me not being a lawyer, which we have covered. But I wasn't meaning in a court of law like someone being found guilty of something, I meant it in more of a "we just shit on an NFL team and Hall of Fame players reputation, we better have some proof to back this up" type of way. I have only read a few paragraphs of the report, but to come to that conclusion they have to have some evidence to back it up.

And honestly, despite my username, I am actually a die hard Denver Broncos fan. I moved to Seahawks country in 1991, but I had already fallen in love with the Broncos about four years before that. I do love the Seahawks, but you don't know how bad it hurt watching the Broncos get stomped by the Hawks two years ago. It wasn't so much that the Broncos lost, I've seen a ton of Broncos teams lose the super bowl, but it was having to deal with the bandwagon fans in this area. I am so happy for my friends that have been lifelong seahawks fans that they have gotten to enjoy this success, but make no mistake a BIG portion of the 12thMan came into existence during the playoffs of 2012. I would have been happier had this investigation came out that they did nothing wrong because I've already heard some bandwagon people who don't know football say, with a straight face mind you, that the hawks lost because the Patriots cheated. Now these people have "proof" to back them up... Believe me, I'm not thrilled that this came out this way, and in all honesty I'm kind of surprised it is as black and white as it seems, I thought it was probably going to be found out that it was blown out of proportion in the beginning. But it is out and it appears there is truth to what they did.

You can back your team all you want, but answer this, do you honestly believe, after reading whats been released today, that nobody did anything wrong as far as intentionally deflating footballs? Is that really what you are saying?
 
I think there is a chance that they could have been tampered with, whether on purpose or orchestrated by a player coach or employee. But that chance could be anywhere from .000001% to 99.9%.

I just find it hilarious that everyone is ready to crucify them, after the league was warned by the crybaby Colts that the balls may be under-inflated. They took halftime PSI gauge readings, which I also find hilarious that 2 different officials had some pretty drastically different readings.

Why didnt they record the pre-game PSI readings? They balls could have all start at exactly 12.5 PSI or they could have started at 13 PSI or 12.25 PSI. The NFL set themselves up for failure to track those 2 distinctly important sets of data to compare against each other.

The report being 200+ pages and at the end saying, the Patriots more probable than not knowingly was trying to use under-inflated footballs is absolutely hilarious. Did Edelmen ask for a specific PSI football when he threw a bomb against the Ravens too?

The report is a joke, it should have been black or white, either you found conclusive evidence or you did not. Not a probably that leads to being crucified for something that was never proven.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight, really. I think Brady is a likeable, personable guy, generally. But seems pretty clear he knew what was up.
 
manamongkids said:
But that chance could be anywhere from .000001% to 99.9%.
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True, but you have to admit that with what was presented it has to be a little closer to the 99.99% end of the scale than the .000001% side of things, right?

manamongkids said:
2 different officials had some pretty drastically different readings.
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This is a problem, I do agree. I would hate for these things to be "decided" by 5 different $0.50 gauges from Harbor Freight Tools.
 
12thMan said:
I think you don't quite understand that "more probable than not" are pretty strong words in a legal sense. I'm not a lawyer obviously (kind of wish I was sometimes), so I could be wrong, but I don't think you can make a statement like that without having your ducks in a row....The words "more probable than not" are used because there is not absolute proof, like maybe a video tape of the bathroom the ball guy is seen ducking into for a minute and a half, that it happened.
Click to expand...

manamongkids said:
I dont think you understand how legal terms work either, in the court of law, more probable than not means literally NOTHING. The entire basis of court, especially criminal cases, if thats what we are comparing this against, it has to be proven without a reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Which they are not.
Click to expand...

manamongkids said:
I think there is a chance that they could have been tampered with, whether on purpose or orchestrated by a player coach or employee. But that chance could be anywhere from .000001% to 99.9%....The report is a joke, it should have been black or white, either you found conclusive evidence or you did not. Not a probably that leads to being crucified for something that was never proven.
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i won't interfere with the substance of this debate, but just to clarify, the "more probable than not" (AKA the preponderance of the evidence) standard is the most commonly used standard of proof in the US courts. in every civil case (apart from fraud and maybe one or two other very particular areas) and in all matrimonial awards, the standard of proof is a preponderance of the evidence.

manamong, i don't know if you were saying it could have been .00001% to 99.9% in your own opinion or with reference to the stated standard, but the function of the preponderance of the evidence standard is that if you as a juror or a judge determine the allegation to be 51% likely to be true, it is proven. if you were speaking to your own opinion, fair enough, but for the purposes of the standard of proof, the minimum likelihood is defined.

it makes sense that this would be the standard used in a review such as this as it is the standard of proof in the vast majority of regulatory proceedings which are much more analogous to this review than either criminal or civil trials. to say that there is no "absolute proof" is not really meaningful. there is very, very, very (i could go on) rarely "absolute proof" in either civil or criminal cases. the usefulness of the various standards of proof is that they set the minimum certainty required. even the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard does not require "absolute proof".

all that said, i didn't read the report and i could not care less about football, so i don't really have a dog in the fight.
 
manamongkids said:
lololol

I will be the sole defender here vs all the Seahawks and Colts fans, or the anti-Patriots fans.

I dont think you understand how legal terms work either, in the court of law, more probable than not means literally NOTHING. The entire basis of court, especially criminal cases, if thats what we are comparing this against, it has to be proven without a reasonable doubt that they are guilty. Which they are not.
Click to expand...

This is not a trial by jury where reasonable doubt means "innocence". At the end of the day the Pats have a cloud of suspicion over all their accomplishments. Was it worth it? Probably since the wins and the Super Bowls aren't going anywhere. I really wouldn't be too proud as a fan but I tend to look at this stuff differently than most people. I know I am in the minority when I say that integrity does matter whether you can prove I did or didn't do something but I digress.

I'm just curious that if under-inflating a ball, or video taping your opponents, or any of the other questionable things they do don't give you an advantage then why risk your legacy and reputation by doing them? See, I think all that stuff did provide an advantage and fans just don't want to accept that their team is a bunch of cheaters. That or you have to accept that your team is pretty stupid for taking huge risks for no reward.
 
brianb1091 said:
This is not a trial by jury where reasonable doubt means "innocence". At the end of the day the Pats have a cloud of suspicion over all their accomplishments. Was it worth it? Probably since the wins and the Super Bowls aren't going anywhere. I really wouldn't be too proud as a fan but I tend to look at this stuff differently than most people. I know I am in the minority when I say that integrity does matter whether you can prove I did or didn't do something but I digress.

I'm just curious that if under-inflating a ball, or video taping your opponents, or any of the other questionable things they do don't give you an advantage then why risk your legacy and reputation by doing them? See, I think all that stuff did provide an advantage and fans just don't want to accept that their team is a bunch of cheaters. That or you have to accept that your team is pretty stupid for taking huge risks for no reward.
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Well this thread is going to be an agree to disagree situation. I also dont want to sound like a baffoon but a person from CO is likely to be a Denver fan which by nature is not going to leave them with an objective view.
 
"All of the balls—Patriots balls and Colts balls—lost pressure by halftime. Significantly, the 11 Patriot balls showed greater decreases than the four Colt balls tested. More significantly, judging by what the scientists employed by Wells told him, eight of the 11 balls tested at halftime fell within the expected range of pressure drop based on the measurements of at least one of the two NFL officials who gauged the pigskins. This, more than anything else, invalidates the conclusions of the Wells Report. Though Ted Wells theorizes a conspiracy to depressurize balls, measurements by NFL referees on the majority of the Patriots balls read precisely where the scientific firm employed by the investigators said a ball inflated to 12.5 psi–the NFL minimum–would fall to (between 11.52 and 11.32) as a result of game-time conditions."

http://www.breitbart.com/sports/201...eport-damns-investigators-more-than-patriots/
 
manamongkids said:
Well this thread is going to be an agree to disagree situation. I also dont want to sound like a baffoon but a person from CO is likely to be a Denver fan which by nature is not going to leave them with an objective view.
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I could go by your location as well and call your objectivity into question. However, when you're caught cheating once you lose the benefit of the doubt in the future. Are my points any less valid just because I'm from Denver? BTW no one is a baffoon just because we disagree. I don't expect you to be objective when it's your team. At the end of the day it is just sports and we all are passionate about our teams.

Spygate and the Patriots history do play a role though. Patriot fans and ESPN can call it sour grapes or jealousy or whatever helps them sleep at night but the facts are the facts and you have to lie in the bed that you choose to make. If I came to someone's home game here and at the end of the night everyone thought it was very "probable" that I cheated I am sure that I would not get invited back and I'd have a reputation on here as someone you wouldn't want to trust. Wouldn't matter if anyone had concrete evidence or first hand knowledge, I'd have a heck of a time getting another game.
 
I'm a Colts season ticket holder and the Colts got their asses kicked in the AFC Championship game. The PSI in the football had little to do with the outcome in that game. The referees are responsible for making sure the game balls are correct and they should be taken to task. I guarantee every team manipulates the game balls to some degree or another and it's the referees job to make sure the ball is legally playable. The referee handles the game ball before every play and they should remove the ball from play if it feels overinflated or under inflated. There is no question that an under inflated ball is easier to catch and to hold onto for the running backs. For some QB's it's easier to throw as well. In my opinion the Patriots should not be taken to task for this but the referees should have their asses handed to them. My two cents.
 
Let's be clear that cheating before the game started might have been wrong by some people's standards no matter how unneeded it was based on the final score. Perhaps the edge was small, and in this specific case unimportant but all of us poker players understand a winning player often needs those types of small edges to eek out a win.

I can accept the premise that cheating is a essential part of professional sports. If you get caught you might get punished, but you never give up the wins {except in cycling where every winner seems to cheat but we pretend otherwise}. Let's give a tip of the hat to the folks who were clever enough, ballsy enough and successful which ever sport they play. If you aren't cheating, you aren't trying hard enough.

It works that way in real life too. The most successful folks in many fields of endeavor did not take their professional ethics courses to heart. Cheaters prosper, honest fair play is for suckers and want-to-bes. It is a rare day when a lack of integrity actually costs anyone more than they gained from cheating. Why should professional sports be any different?

You get cynical when you get old -=- DrStrange
 
That reminds me of the old Nascar and Indy days. Cheating in motorsports was perhaps first done by having car parts that were not specified against in the rules. The engineers were not necessarily cheating but when their tactics were discovered, rules were changed. I miss those days. Nobody will ever forget the 1967 Paxson Turbo that Granatelli brought to Indy, a 3 dollar bearing robbed them of victory. Penske did the same with a one off Mercedes in the early 90's. Those cars were outlawed quickly because they were so good compared to everyone else. I love Indy but those days are gone for the most part.
 

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