PCF member dennis63 becomes a real casino dealer (1 Viewer)

Does anyone know why this is the case? Most casinos I've played in the poker dealers keep their tips, where the BJ dealers share. Is there a rhyme or reason to this? Is one better than the other?

I know that there was a labor issue in Vegas casinos at one point, where the pit-bosses wanted of get a share of the tips. The only way to do this fairly would be to pool tips. Sadly, this also meant the casino in question could pay their supervisors less, because they were now getting tips as well.

Personally, I think dealers should keep what they collect, period. Maybe pay a cut to the supervisor at the end of shift, if that seems fair. But really, I've had fun dealers and shitty dealers. I'd like the fun ones to stay, and bigger tips encourages that. I'd like the shitty ones to quit, and few to no tips would encourage that as well.

Casinos never ask what I think.
 
I don't get why your pay gets taxed because the casino serves alcohol. You have nothing to do with it.
 
I don't get why your pay gets taxed because the casino serves alcohol. You have nothing to do with it.

I need to check into it, but it was $12.63 off my last paycheck. It may be a city wage tax on employees of businesses that sell alcohol.
 
Casinos that serve alcohol are busier than dry casinos? You benefit from working at a busier casino?

Whether the benefit offsets the tax is another matter altogether.
 
I know that there was a labor issue in Vegas casinos at one point, where the pit-bosses wanted of get a share of the tips. The only way to do this fairly would be to pool tips. Sadly, this also meant the casino in question could pay their supervisors less, because they were now getting tips as well.
Don't know how it was before or after but in the late 90s/early 2000s there were a few Vegas casinos in which the dealers made FAR more than the floor... Hard Rock dealers made six figures, floor made roughly half what the dealers took home.
 
Great read. There's a lot going on that the unwashed are unaware of. Thanks for sharing your experience in such depth.
 
Great read, Dennis. I *heart* this thread. :D

When you talk about all the floor personnel, surveillance personnel, etc. it really hits me how monolithic the expenses of a casino are, and how MANY people have to keep coming through the door and dropping their paychecks to make it profitable...

I was born in 1981, and my general impression from growing up in the time I did is that people in my age group (or younger):

1) Are far less likely to gamble away their money in general, as compared to members of my parents' and grandparents' generations and

2) Would be far less likely to blame and/or abuse a dealer for their losses if they did.


I know that the first is true and has been well-documented as to how the casino industry in general is currently struggling. Can you give any comment as to the second? I've never seen it mentioned one way or the other - honestly I had no idea that "dealer abuse" was so prevalent among any group before reading this thread. I'm sorry you have to deal with that and to me it denotes an unforgivable level of both stupidity and inhuman malice to abuse a dealer just because some cards didn't fall your way. I'd like to at least have some hope for the future that those sorts of attitudes will stop. ;)
 
I have played a LOT of blackjack over the years and I have seen a lot of dealers verbally abused. That always irks me. I've never done it, as losing doesn't make me mad at the dealer any more than it makes me mad at the chair I'm sitting on. However, dealers who play my hand for me by not waiting for my action or snap off the total of my hand quickly do annoy me and I usually ask them not to do so and leave if they continue. Does the casino pressure you to deal quickly and move the player along?
 
Great read, Dennis. I *heart* this thread. :D

When you talk about all the floor personnel, surveillance personnel, etc. it really hits me how monolithic the expenses of a casino are, and how MANY people have to keep coming through the door and dropping their paychecks to make it profitable...

I was born in 1981, and my general impression from growing up in the time I did is that people in my age group (or younger):

1) Are far less likely to gamble away their money in general, as compared to members of my parents' and grandparents' generations and

2) Would be far less likely to blame and/or abuse a dealer for their losses if they did.


I know that the first is true and has been well-documented as to how the casino industry in general is currently struggling. Can you give any comment as to the second? I've never seen it mentioned one way or the other - honestly I had no idea that "dealer abuse" was so prevalent among any group before reading this thread. I'm sorry you have to deal with that and to me it denotes an unforgivable level of both stupidity and inhuman malice to abuse a dealer just because some cards didn't fall your way. I'd like to at least have some hope for the future that those sorts of attitudes will stop. ;)

Ben:

Your generation, born in the 80s, may be less likely to gamble, but I saw no noticeable difference among people of different ages when it came to blaming or abusing the dealer for their losses. You are an exception. I'd like to think people my age would be more polite, too, but it's not so. Socioeconomics? Our elite member players can be some of the worst offenders. In the end, rudeness and abusive language boils down to one thing:

The casino management allows it.

They could easily get the players in line by coming down hard on people who verbally abuse the dealers. Ban a few people, even temporarily, and the word would spread quickly. But they won't. The corporate business plan is (literally) to smile and be overly nice to everybody at all properties nationwide, no matter how the player acts.

There are other reasons contributing. First, I work in the Northeastern United States, an area known for its rudeness. Here, people are rude and profane, and proud of it. America is meaner than it was 30 years ago, and instead of becoming more polite and civilized, we've slid down the slope, bringing internet-level rudeness into everyday life. Fewer and fewer people actually know how to play cards, or take the time to learn, so the level of play at a casino has probably gone down. In sports, the winners can be the most intolerably arrogant jerks around, so people don't even know how to win graciously. And losing graciously?

I'm surprised I haven't been stabbed.
 
I have played a LOT of blackjack over the years and I have seen a lot of dealers verbally abused. That always irks me. I've never done it, as losing doesn't make me mad at the dealer any more than it makes me mad at the chair I'm sitting on. However, dealers who play my hand for me by not waiting for my action or snap off the total of my hand quickly do annoy me and I usually ask them not to do so and leave if they continue. Does the casino pressure you to deal quickly and move the player along?

Just the opposite, actually. Since I'm new, they encourage me to take it slow. We are supposed to wait for the player. They shouldn't have to wait for us. If the player wants to play faster, I pick up the pace to match them as best I can. If they are looking at a 14 and pondering what to do next, I stop and wait for them. It's their money, after all. So far, nobody has gotten on me about it.

But clearly, you get it. If you're sitting at a table and you're not happy with the shoe, or the other players, or the dealer, you can move any time you want. Don't just sit there, throwing away money and dropping F-bombs. That's not fun for you or for your dealer.
 
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When is someone gonna organize a meetup at Motherf@*ker's casino?

I'm loving that idea.

Last year, I set up the Key West table at a few local charity flea markets and played blackjack with some people while their spouses shopped. This year, I'm looking into doing a class on how to actually play blackjack at a casino -- a couple of hours total -- a bit of learning the game and the casino rules, then playing for fun or points or prizes at a community center. No one here would need such a class.
 
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Ben:

Your generation, born in the 80s, may be less likely to gamble, but I saw no noticeable difference among people of different ages when it came to blaming or abusing the dealer for their losses. You are an exception. I'd like to think people my age would be more polite, too, but it's not so. Socioeconomics? Our elite member players can be some of the worst offenders. In the end, rudeness and abusive language boils down to one thing:

The casino management allows it.

They could easily get the players in line by coming down hard on people who verbally abuse the dealers. Ban a few people, even temporarily, and the word would spread quickly. But they won't. The corporate business plan is (literally) to smile and be overly nice to everybody at all properties nationwide, no matter how the player acts.

There are other reasons contributing. First, I work in the Northeastern United States, an area known for its rudeness. Here, people are rude and profane, and proud of it. America is meaner than it was 30 years ago, and instead of becoming more polite and civilized, we've slid down the slope, bringing internet-level rudeness into everyday life. Fewer and fewer people actually know how to play cards, or take the time to learn, so the level of play at a casino has probably gone down. In sports, the winners can be the most intolerably arrogant jerks around, so people don't even know how to win graciously. And losing graciously?

I'm surprised I haven't been stabbed.

Yeah we definitely are NOT more respectful. I'm not entirely sure that I've ever called anyone "sir" in my entire life. If I have, it was an isolated incident. ;)

I just thought there would be a lot less of us who could somehow believe that a dealer has anything to do with winning/losing. Guess not. :(
 
There's no getting around one simple fact: The house has a statistical edge and will win more hands than the players. How confident is the casino when they'll sell you a strategy card and they know they'll still win?

Some players know how to play well, but they are the exception. More players play poorly, believe in luck, or streaks or other personal superstitions, which changes their play, usually for the worse.

It all adds up to one result: lots of players losing lots of hands.

Wise, experienced gamblers understand this, and are more apt to ride out a bad day without complaint.

But most players don't want to be responsible for their own mistakes, so they look for something external to blame.

The dealer is giving them the cards and taking their money, and is a most obvious target.
 
I call everyone Sir/Ma'am. Five years of active military will do that to you.
I still feel awkward when you call me "sir". I'm 35, never been in the military, nor did I ever do anything to earn that title.

Now, if someone was under 18 and wanted to call me sir as they hand me my Baconator combo, I'm cool with that. These entitled assholes need to learn respect. :D
 
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There's no getting around one simple fact: The house has a statistical edge and will win more hands than the players. How confident is the casino when they'll sell you a strategy card and they know they'll still win?

This did make me think though... as a new dealer, how sharp are you at identifying card counters? o_O:cautious::sneaky:
 
Great read, Dennis. I *heart* this thread. :D

When you talk about all the floor personnel, surveillance personnel, etc. it really hits me how monolithic the expenses of a casino are, and how MANY people have to keep coming through the door and dropping their paychecks to make it profitable...

I was born in 1981, and my general impression from growing up in the time I did is that people in my age group (or younger):

1) Are far less likely to gamble away their money in general, as compared to members of my parents' and grandparents' generations and

2) Would be far less likely to blame and/or abuse a dealer for their losses if they did.


I know that the first is true and has been well-documented as to how the casino industry in general is currently struggling. Can you give any comment as to the second? I've never seen it mentioned one way or the other - honestly I had no idea that "dealer abuse" was so prevalent among any group before reading this thread. I'm sorry you have to deal with that and to me it denotes an unforgivable level of both stupidity and inhuman malice to abuse a dealer just because some cards didn't fall your way. I'd like to at least have some hope for the future that those sorts of attitudes will stop. ;)

That's not part of the dealers job.

Being that he is new and always on a shoe I would guess not very good :)

Yes. That's not something I really think about at this stage. I am aware of the issue, and aware that the casino does several things to combat it or make it less likely for a counter to be successful.
 
Yes. That's not something I really think about at this stage. I am aware of the issue, and aware that the casino does several things to combat it or make it less likely for a counter to be successful.

Are you required to announce unusual splits, like splitting 10's?
 
That's not part of the dealers job.

Being that he is new and always on a shoe I would guess not very good :)

Does it go to the floor? The "Eye in the sky"? Does nobody care until you are up a statistically unlikely amount?

Feel free to not answer if this is divulging trade secrets. Mostly it was just for fun, but now the information intrigues me from a nerd standpoint. I've counted cards exactly 1 time in a casino. It was a low dollar table ($5 or less, I'd need to look at old records to figure it out). Both Mrs Zombie and I finished up - her marginally, and me about 5-10x more than her. However at the end of the session, I was spent from the mental exercise, while she was happy as a clam.

For the amount I'm dropping on a table, it's really not worth the work, but I do get why people try to get away with it. It was worth the experience, like going to a time-share presentation. I did it once, but have no desire to try it again.
 
Are you required to announce unusual splits, like splitting 10's?

Yes.That's part of what the casino does to combat it. Alert calls -- hitting a hard hand that's likely to break, splitting 10s, and some others -- are designed to be automatic to the dealers, and are a red flag to the floor supervisor that the player might be counting. Sudden, radical increases in a player's bets will draw my attention, and the floor's. And I have to call out if someone who has been playing red or green checks suddenly decides to play black. The call is "black in action,"

My first instructor told us not to worry about counters at the low limit tables. "That's something you can start doing when you get to be a good dealer, down the road a year or so."

He was convinced that the rare players who have the bankroll and the brain power to stay for the whole shoe, accurately count, and use it to their advantage will not waste a lot of time at the $5 and $10 tables -- not because they can't make money, but because the other players' unpredictable (and sometimes insane) play can really mess them up.

Does it go to the floor? The "Eye in the sky"? Does nobody care until you are up a statistically unlikely amount?

Feel free to not answer if this is divulging trade secrets. Mostly it was just for fun, but now the information intrigues me from a nerd standpoint. I've counted cards exactly 1 time in a casino. It was a low dollar table ($5 or less, I'd need to look at old records to figure it out). Both Mrs Zombie and I finished up - her marginally, and me about 5-10x more than her. However at the end of the session, I was spent from the mental exercise, while she was happy as a clam.

For the amount I'm dropping on a table, it's really not worth the work, but I do get why people try to get away with it. It was worth the experience, like going to a time-share presentation. I did it once, but have no desire to try it again.

I think it's one of those things that gets onto the internet, and people believe it. "You can learn to count cards and beat the casino." Unless you're an MIT Blackjack team member, I don't think the casino is really that worried.

That said, if you do the things counters do -- giant leaps in the bets, hitting a breaking hand, etc. -- someone will be watching to see how the hands turn out, starting with the Floor Supervisor in that pit. It is up to the Floor to see if it goes any higher.

Quite often, the six-deck shoe will thwart your efforts anyway. You'll lose, and everyone will calm down. Counting only increases the chance you draw a card favorable to the player. It doesn't guarantee you'll win every hand, or even win more hands than you lose.

I have not seen yet what they actually do if they think they have a counter at the table. I'm sure there is a threshold -- either a number of winning hands or, more likely, an amount of money. Once they go over that line, the player will be asked to step from the table and leave the casino. It's not illegal.

Meanwhile, I wonder how much the casino rakes in from people who watched an online video and want to come in and try their hand at counting.

My instructor said, "Let them count. They're not going to win anyway."
 
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Does anyone know why this is the case? Most casinos I've played in the poker dealers keep their tips, where the BJ dealers share. Is there a rhyme or reason to this? Is one better than the other?

Poker dealers' tips tend to be consistent and are related strongly to the quality of their dealing - quick, sharp, helpful? Good, steady tokes. Slow, sloppy, annoying? Low tokes. The same is true largely regardless of the particular type of poker or the stakes, though higher stakes get slightly higher tips. Dealers get rotated through all the stakes and it's fair.

The other table games? If you have the big-six wheel, you won't make tip money. If you have a $5 table you'll make a lot less than at a $25 dollar table. One table can drop $1000 in tips a during an 8-hour shift, and the table next to it may drop $100, with equal quality dealing. And one hand might garner a $500 tip just for having dumb luck (I "dealt" someone a straight flush in Caribbean Stud Poker), or that same dealer may work 8 hours and not drop more than $20 the whole night. Dealers who work Friday night and weekends would drop a lot more than dealers who work Monday and Tuesday afternoon... but people need to be assigned to all those shifts.

Because the variance is so huge for so many reasons - and because the house needs to spread empty tables before the rush hits - and because the house needs to have dealers at all different stakes and games - it's fair to the dealers to share the tips and smooth out the variance.

In AC, the base rate goes up fore more game endorsements on the license (more games you can deal; each was worth 25c an hour) and goes up with seniority (each year was 25c an hour), but the toke rate was still the lion's share of the take-home.

Wow! $4.50 an an hour and $12.50 tokes in 1991? That means the pay hasn't really increased much in 26 years!

Dunno if you mean pay is weak today, or it was good back then... I was sure happy with that pay and all the food I could eat while working my way through college!

But you have to compare comparable houses. At the time, I was in the second-highest paying house in AC. (Caesar's was tops, I was at the Plaza.) But that was my second dealing job... my first job, right out of dealing school, was at the Clairidge, where I got $3.75 plus about $8/hr in tokes. I have no idea what toke rates are in AC today - you shouldn't necessarily compare to a rate outside of AC.
 
Does it go to the floor? The "Eye in the sky"?
There's really not a correct answer to this but in general terms it's the floors job and they alert the EITS who follow up.

have not seen yet what they actually do if they think they have a counter at the table. I'm sure there is a threshold -- either a number of winning hands or, more likely, an amount of money, that the player will be asked to step from the table and he will be asked to leave the casino. It's not illegal.
Micro limit players they often don't give a fuck as long as the wagers stay low limits. But when they've had/seen enough it's calling "backing them off". Unless it's a serial counter they don't kick them out of the casino... more often than not they won't even hear the word "counting". They're just told they are welcome to play anything else in the casino but they can't play blackjack anymore.

Is your casino 100% shoes? a) that would suuuuuuuuuck and b) times you get real counters will be few and far between.
 
He was convinced that the rare players who have the bankroll and the brain power to stay for the whole shoe, accurately count, and use it to their advantage will not waste a lot of time at the $5 and $10 tables -- not because they can't make money, but because the other players' unpredictable (and sometimes insane) play can really mess them up.

Then he's not that savvy on card counting.

Counting an 8-deck shoe is no harder than a single deck. And counters don't give a rat's ass what the other players do - it makes no difference at all to them.

Nobody is going to make money at BJ counting cards and making unusual plays like splitting 10s... to make money, they need a good bet spread. That is, betting low (or leaving) when the count says they're getting the worst of it, and betting high when the count says they have an advantage. It's almost all about the bet spread.

As a floor (and, starting my second year, I spent as much time flooring as dealing), you're always watching the bets, for two reasons:

1. You're rating the players, and what matters for their rating is average bet size. Except in the case of whales who are betting thousands per hand, the casinos don't care in the least how much is won or lost by an individual; they care about average bet, time at table, and the house edge at that game. We look to see if they play properly, sure, but it's critical to differentiate between someone whose average bet is $10 vs someone whose average bet is $50. I saw lots of people who tried to be $50 bettors when the floor is looking, and $10 bettors when the floor's back is turned, and then try to talk their way into free rooms and steak dinners.

2. You're watching bet size spreads to spot card-counters.

Number two is, by far, the lesser. The amount of money spent on comps to people that might be playing the system is likely much higher than that lost to card counters who might otherwise have been easily caught at the table. And they also want to make sure to offer enough comps to players who are betting more than they might realize - if a person enjoys gambling and is willing to lose money, the house wants to keep their business, not lose them to another casino that comps them better. We're much more focused on the gaming revenue from the 99.9% of players than the small loss from the tiny fraction of card counters who, if they played larger, would be spotted and stopped, anyway.


Yes. All the tables have 6-deck shoes.


If there's one counter with a low spread and five other players... They'll probably just let them play, unless he's being an ass to the players. If he's entertaining, they'll likely let him slide.

On the other hand, if there's one other player and a counter playing a 5:1 spread? Different story. They'll probably tell the dealer to start inserting the cut card at 3 decks, so only 50% gets dealt. Counter gets the hint and leaves.

Side note: a good card-counter playing against a 6-deck shoe that deals 5 decks out of 6, and who has a good bet spread, will have an EV (expected value of winning) of about 1%, maybe 1.25%. Meanwhile, the house edge against the typical BJ player is more like 2.5%. (Someone playing perfect strategy is losing maybe .5%, someone doing awful plays is more like 5%.)

So if you have a couple of players paying you 2% or 3%, and one player taking away 1% but entertaining the others... do you bust up the game?
 
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Lessons from exposing a card

Somewhere in my first week as a dealer, I exposed a hole card. I'm sure I was trying to get the cards out quickly, and had gotten into that motion of pulling and turning. Realizing a player may have seen it, I called the floor. He was not upset, and promptly resolved the error.

This was not actually discussed in the dealer class, other than to say if you do it, call the Floor.

My lifetime experience at the blackjack tables of Atlantic City, Las Vegas and Delaware have been rather brief --just long enough to put my cheques in the betting circle and watch them get swept away and "locked up," the casino term for putting cheques in the rack. There was one longer evening at the Playboy back in 1981, but if the dealer there exposed a card, I'm sure I was looking at one of the bunnies somewhere.

So for anyone who doesn't know, what they do is this.

They turn both dealer's cards face up (if the dealer hasn't left the exposed card face-up), then go around the table, offering each player the opportunity to pull back their bet, or stay in the hand. (I'm not sure if all casinos do this, and it may be a house rule. Others here can certainly add their knowledge.)

Unless the decision is ridiculously obvious, like when the dealer has 20, many people actually stay in.

I've learned there are some casinos where both dealer cards are dealt face-up. It has been said that the casino's win at those tables can actually be higher, because players take risks they wouldn't normally if they didn't know the dealer's hole card.

Anyone here play at one of those places? Any opinions on how this changes the strategy or the outcome?
 

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