PLO getting it in prelop Good play or spew? (1 Viewer)

[grebe]

So I have been getting away from the NLH games lately in favor of the "mean streets of PLO" since the play is in general much looser and more fun than sitting with a bunch of rocks. I have been running quite well, but I am still trying to figure it out. Here is a hand from yesterday where we get it in against two bigger stacks. My general thinking here is try to be more aggressive with double suited and connected hands that should play well against over pairs. My goal was not to get it in here, but I saw the opportunity to play two big stacks against each other. Not sure if I picked a good hand to do it with though...
Poker Bros .1/.2 (.04 ante) with a $40 cap 6 max:
Hero is SB ($28) with
V1 is BB ($50.55)
V2 is BTN ($72)

Action:
UTG call .2
BTN raise 1.04
HERO 3!: 3.64
BB: call 3.64
UTG: fold
BTN 4!: $14.26
HERO JAM: $24.74

 

[Machine]

I think the correct action here is to fold, that said, I'd play it like that, likely to be multiway action, preflop, if they run it twice the better.

 

[grebe]

@Anthony Martino @Rhodeman77 @Goldfish @detroitdad

 

[Anthony Martino]

It's tough to say without having info on these villains and what type of hand ranges we should expect to see from them. Based on BB's cold-call of a raise and reraise here I'm guessing he's more of a station than anything, so you should expect to have to beat their hand at showdown as well.

My issue is with your thought process. You say your hand should do well against "over pairs", but the problem is you have some of those high cards in your hand. Let's run some equities:

Your thinking that you want double suited and connected cards is sound, and getting this hand in preflop is only a big mistake when you're up against someone with the AAxx here.

But the problem is that while suited and "connected", the hands connectedness is somewhat disjointed. The A5 work together, the 56 do as well, and the AQ. But the A5 connectedness is moot since if the board comes 234 you're going to use the 56 anyway. Ideally you want all four cards able to connect somehow.

Also, you're 140bb deep here, which is just too deep, imo, to be trying to play for stacks with this hand. It's not a terrible hand, but it's certainly not great either. I prefer a cold-call and proceed post-flop given stack depth

 

[Anthony Martino]

Also just noticed this is 6-max, I play full-ring games 8-9 handed so the strategies employed will differ because of this. I don't have a ton of experience playing shorter-handed like you are, but obviously aggression is going to have to increase and your hand selection will need to widen, as well as the hands you take to showdown.

Again, without info on our opponents it's tough to judge at 100%. But I am generally not a fan of raising or reraising when I'm in a positional disadvantage (i.e. from the blinds) post-flop. If you reraise here and wind up with multiple players just calling your raise, now you're playing a bloated pot OOP, not ideal.

And if you get repopped for stacks you usually have to give up a hand that you'd want to see a flop with, given you have a suited Ace.

 

[Senzrock]

Hero’s 3bet pre is a pretty big mistake. It should technically be a fold but you can mix in some calls as well if you think the limper is generally not limp-4betting. The hand just doesn’t play well vs AKQJ type of hands or AAxx types of hands - really you only have clubs. 3betting out of position with this kind of hand is a recipe for losing a lot of $ in PLO - tighten up until you feel more comfortable with preflop ranges (or at least call with marginal hands in position).

 

[detroitdad]

If I can see a flop cheaply with this hand then I probably will. It isn't anything I want to play for stacks with. If its three bet before it gets to me I'm probably folding unless I close out the action.

I would like the 4 cards to play a little better with each other if I'm playing for stacks.

 

[ekricket]

My goal was not to get it in here, but I saw the opportunity to play two big stacks against each other. N

When you are playing cash, and out of position with a marginal hand at best - why is this such a good thing to do?
What’s the benefit of playing two big stacks against each other OOP in a cash game?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Definitely too loose for my liking. I agree with the others above that if you are getting your stack in with this hand preflop that you will often be dominated unless the other player is a lagtard looking to gamble.

 

[ekricket]

When you are playing cash, and out of position with a marginal hand at best - why is this such a good thing to do?
What’s the benefit of playing two big stacks against each other OOP in a cash game?

Actually I suspect the answer is that it paid off for you so it’s in our face that overagression with marginal hands that have little hope of winning is the way to go - at least when you get lucky and it pays off

 

[Goldfish]

Did you win? If so, u played it perfectly.

 

[Goldfish]

In all seriousness thou, @Anthony Martino has it right. I would probably not three bet or jam all in with this hand (unless I am short stacked). I would however call a raise to see a flop. While this is a connected hand it’s not a run down (where all the cards are connected - like 910jq). Semi high to high Double suited run downs - 3 bet those hands all day IMO.

 

[grebe]

When you are playing cash, and out of position with a marginal hand at best - why is this such a good thing to do?
What’s the benefit of playing two big stacks against each other OOP in a cash game?

If you play two big stacks against each other, possibility is good that you can play for a triple up against one opponent instead of two, as they will bet each other off the hand on the flop. Thus, you only need to be good 33% of the time to break even.

 

[ekricket]

If you play two big stacks against each other, possibility is good that you can play for a triple up against one opponent instead of two, as they will bet each other off the hand on the flop. Thus, you only need to be good 33% of the time to break even.

So 67% of the time you are rebuying? That’s a bold strategy, hope it works out for you.

 

[grebe]

Actually I suspect the answer is that it paid off for you so it’s in our face that overagression with marginal hands that have little hope of winning is the way to go - at least when you get lucky and it pays off

Its not "in anybody's face" whether I won or not. I was looking for information from people that play this gamer on a regular basis. To me, the outcome of this hand does not matter. It's going forward and learning from it.

 

[grebe]

So 67% of the time you are rebuying? That’s a bold strategy, hope it works out for you.

lol. Dude, you can totally see that it's me posting and move on if you like. Not sure why you take this shit personally.

 

[Anthony Martino]

The concept is that you get your stack in pre, and the bigger stacks still have more money postflop.

So if one pushes the other out postflop, then you have a shot to triple up, but only have to hold against one hand to do it

 

[surfik]

Ultra aggressive but within the reason...
This looks to me like instance of people playing too low stakes compering to bankroll they carry.

 

[grebe]

The concept is that you get your stack in pre, and the bigger stacks still have more money postflop.

So if one pushes the other out postflop, then you have a shot to triple up, but only have to hold against one hand to do it

I learned it from you....and although we are definitely deeper than where you would apply this concept (buying in short), I saw the opportunity and said "fuck it". It's only $30.

 

[Goldfish]

Getting all in pre with that hand is also great for the image. Once people think u are a crazy cowboy with a wide range u will get paid off a lot more and get invited to awesome private games! Trust me I know!

Btw, quick war story about last night playing plo. I have . I call two pre flop raises in early position. Flop is yum yum. I bet pot. 2 callers. Turn is. Yum flipping yum. I check, 2nd guy checks. 3 guy pots. I call. Other guy calls. River is. I bet out 40% of the pot. Next guy raises pot. 3rd guy tank goes all in for less!!!! I go all in. 2nd guy calls all in. St8 flush over quads over Ks full. Holly crap. I give the dealer a big hug and a big tip.

 

[Goldfish]

I learned it from you....and although we are definitely deeper than where you would apply this concept (buying in short), I saw the opportunity and said "fuck it". It's only $30.

I say “fuck it” at least 10 times a night. It actually comes out - “well, I didn’t come here to fold.”

 

[grebe]

Getting all in pre with that hand is also great for the image. Once people think u are a crazy cowboy with a wide range u will get paid off a lot more and get invited to awesome private games! Trust me I know!

Btw, quick war story about last night playing plo. I have . I call two pre flop raises in early position. Flop is yum yum. I bet pot. 2 callers. Turn is. Yum flipping yum. I check, 2nd guy checks. 3 guy pots. I call. Other guy calls. River is. I bet out 40% of the pot. Next guy raises pot. 3rd guy tank goes all in for less!!!! I go all in. 2nd guy calls all in. St8 flush over quads over Ks full. Holly crap. I give the dealer a big hug and a big tip.

Tell that dude sorry, Quad K's or better for the bad beat jackpot in omaha! It doesn't qualify!

(it's just a BEAT)

 

[grebe]

I say “fuck it” at least 10 times a night. It actually comes out - “well, I didn’t come here to fold.”

you still didnt even give me a "Nice!" on the poll though. You were my one saving grace and I couldnt even get you on my side!

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

It would be very close to a fold if you knew it was double suited aces but against almost anything else your equity is in the mid 40s (and occasionally he’s just punting a dumb hand) while you’re getting 2:1. and visibility is not much different for either player with very few decisions to be made.

The likelihood of a complete punt goes way up due to stakes being so small. It still is aces most of the time, sure, but it’ll much more often be bad aces where you're less if a dog. You just can’t be folding much if anything that you 3bet here.

And you don’t have to stick in the remaining 50 blinds in pre even though it’ll mostly be going in on the flop. There are some improvements by dumping it on really bad flops - on some paired boards you’re drawing close to dead against aces and a heavy dog against the rundowns.

When you are playing cash, and out of position with a marginal hand at best - why is this such a good thing to do?
What’s the benefit of playing two big stacks against each other OOP in a cash game?

It’s a similar concept (to a much lesser effect) as the built in edge of being dealt in with a 1 ante stack at a full table. I wouldn’t raise in this spot for that reason but it does carry a small benefit.

If someone with 200 blinds 3bets to 50 blinds, another big stack calls, and you have the ability to overcall with 50 blinds total it’s quite a bit better than it would look running the equity calcs because one player will often bet stacks on flop where the other will have to fold out equity. Sometimes you will win with a hand that would have lost if it was just a 3 way all in.

 

[DoubleEagle]

For me it's an easy fold pre.

 

[Goldfish]

you still didnt even give me a "Nice!" on the poll though. You were my one saving grace and I couldnt even get you on my side!

Nice vote has been logged! I am definitely on ur side! I will never fold a suited ace pre. The beautiful thing about a cash game is u can always rebuy. The beautiful thing about plo is there will always be opportunities to win ur money back from the last hand. Last night I was on my 6th rebuy before I got rolling. Just a typical night for me. Haha.

 

[grebe]

Nice vote has been logged! I am definitely on ur side! I will never fold a suited ace pre. The beautiful thing about a cash game is u can always rebuy. The beautiful thing about plo is there will always be opportunities to win ur money back from the last hand. Last night I was on my 6th rebuy before I got rolling. Just a typical night for me. Haha.

you are my spirit animal

 

[grebe]

For me it's an easy fold pre.

I am coming to grips with my play being poor, but I think this is way too tight. You don't even call the first raise from the button here?

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I’m guessing he meant to the 4bet.

Which is still too tight but not the worst fold when taking rake into consideration. The thing is, you’ll see bad aces do this a ton at the micros where your equity is in the low 40s. You’ll sometimes see kings do this where you’re nearly flipping. And of course you’ll see the premium rundowns do it where you’re also roughly flipping.

Against any field your avg equity is at least in the low 40s and in some crazy fields considerably better.

 

[Coyote]

That's exactly how I usually lose hard-earned money from NLHE, in PLO orbits.