PLO hand discussion (3 Viewers)

[Moxie Mike]

I check and it actually checks around.
Turn:.
Action on us...

You could have improved to the best hand so betting doesn't immediately sound like a bad choice. The problem with betting though is you have no plan for the river if you are called and you're OOP. It's reasonable that someone has a wheel or a set and checked it back... a pretty common play in PLO in multiway pots while holding non-nutted hands. Against 3 opponents that seems plausable.

What are you representing by potting it in this spot? That you were sandbagging a made hand on the flop? That doesn't seem believable after raising pre from the BB. You could be repping that you spiked a set on the turn... but your hand still is problematic if you're called.

Depending on who's in the game, you also run the risk of someone in position floating. Your hand really can't take any pressure, and you're going to tell them that by checking the river. A savvy opponent could easily move you off your hand by potting the river when checked to.

So the only case for potting it here is if you're also going to pot it on the river. I don't think a two-barrel bluff gets through if you're called on the turn. Betting = -EV.

So checking is the better option. If someone in position takes a stab at it, you can possibly call and see what they do on the river. Folding if someone bets isn't a bad play either.

 

[detroitdad]

I think that there seems to be a common theme that at these stakes, everybody is bad. I would disagree with this...These are not the lowest of the low here. You will always have decent players mixed in, and I am sitting with people that seem to not mind buying in for 200 big blinds. Assuming they are all bad is a mistake....some will be worse than others....but this is online and everybody is better than just live players....and some will be multi-tabling (which means they are going to player tighter and be better).

I wasn't stating that they were bad, I was guessing. I only play in private online sites and I have never played these stakes online. I really have no idea.

That’s why you’re a better player than most!

I usually am the best player at the table whether its live or online.

 

[grebe]

I usually am the best player at the table whether its live or online.

So you got that going for you, which is nice.

 

[detroitdad]

So you got that going for you, which is nice.

You played with me. You know I have pro potential. Seriously, right or not. I was betting pre, betting on the flop, and betting on the turn. I'm building a big pot for when I crush the river (I may already be ahead on the turn).

Right or wrong, its how I would play it.

 

[Senzrock]

You played with me. You know I have pro potential. Seriously, right or not. I was betting pre, betting on the flop, and betting on the turn. I'm building a big pot for when I crush the river (I may already be ahead on the turn).

Right or wrong, its how I would play it.

Potting on that flop is a pretty major mistake imo. I don’t know about your claim to be on the level of being a pro, but maybe you don’t play PLO often?

 

[detroitdad]

I was joking dude. I don't get PLO into play very often. After all, it is the hold'em of mixed games

 

[Senzrock]

I was joking dude. I don't get PLO into play very often. After all, it is the hold'em of mixed games

Well played

 

[Rhodeman77]

Out of position I play the turn as a check call of a single bet. Hero has the best hand a lot of the time here, but I don’t want to get stacks in, because that is when Hero is behind 100% of the time.

 

[Anthony Martino]

OK everyone, time to beat up on grebe! It's PLO strategy time!

This hand is at a .2/.4 PLO 6 max table....it is pretty crazy with the betting and deep stacks are going in. I sat short and I am up like $20, but I am still the smallest stack at the table with $54.

3 limpers to me in the BB, I have .

Check or Pot???

Check. We are OOP, not really short-stacked and we can see a flop with a decent but not amazing hand without revealing any strength of our holding. Preflop equities are so close, you want to be making decisions post-flop. Your opponents will make bigger mistakes postflop, I'm a fan of keeping pots small until it's time to make them large.

Moving on....

Hero pots to $1.80
UTG folds, MP, CO and BTN all call.
Pot is now $9
We get a lousy flop:



Action on us....anybody advocate taking a stab here?


EDIT: looking back, there was a 4th caller as well in the button. Just realized it when the pot didnt add up right.

Nope, not taking a stab. You raised preflop, this flop rarely is going to hit the preflop raisers range, especially when you raised OOP into multiple opponents. Aggressive or knowledgeable players are going to use position and aggression to push you around here, this is a check-fold flop for me. You might make the wheel and be losing, your only best option is runner-runner flush or boat, and if you're chasing runner-runner OOP you're going to have a bad time in the long run.

 

[Anthony Martino]

I check and it actually checks around.
Turn:.
Action on us...

We've turned top two pair, but I still lean towards a check-call line. We can get value from people who just turned a shittier two pair and might feel inclined to bet, and we protect ourselves when we run into sets that are afraid of straights, or made straights that were slow playing as we don't put as much money in.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

“Pre: Both checking and potting are fine options. If your game is strong enough to navigate multiway pots OOP then that leads more toward potting it... but checking your option is ok too. The thing is, with virtually all holdings in PLO you're going to need to improve via the flop in order to drag the pot. So by raising when you probably don't have much of an edge in terms of equity or position, you're really only building a pot for whomever connects best with the flop, and you're hoping it's you so you can bet as first to act.”

You do have an equity edge though. Meaning you will get a good piece more often than they will. AK is a drawing hand too that needs to improve on a 4 way pot, it doesn’t mean you don’t want more money in the pot.

The problem is that the rake is eating almost all of your equity edge if not more. That and sure, it gives less room for them to make mistakes post flop. I would not let that stop me from raising here if it was an unraked game though.

 

[Anthony Martino]

“Pre: Both checking and potting are fine options. If your game is strong enough to navigate multiway pots OOP then that leads more toward potting it... but checking your option is ok too. The thing is, with virtually all holdings in PLO you're going to need to improve via the flop in order to drag the pot. So by raising when you probably don't have much of an edge in terms of equity or position, you're really only building a pot for whomever connects best with the flop, and you're hoping it's you so you can bet as first to act.”

You do have an equity edge though. Meaning you will get a good piece more often than they will. AK is a drawing hand too that needs to improve on a 4 way pot, it doesn’t mean you don’t want more money in the pot.

The problem is that the rake is eating almost all of your equity edge if not more. That and sure, it gives less room for them to make mistakes post flop. I would not let that stop me from raising here if it was an unraked game though.

I'm generally not a fan of bloating pots in hands likely to go multiway with aggressive opponents, fairly deep-stacked and when we're OOP. The OOP being the biggest reason for me to not bloat.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Nevermind.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Nevermind.

Noooooeesss! I was mentioned in a post and now I don't know why! I won't be able to sleep tonight dammit!

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

I'm generally not a fan of bloating pots in hands likely to go multiway with aggressive opponents, fairly deep-stacked and when we're OOP. The OOP being the biggest reason for me to not bloat.

The distinction rarely matters because almost any game with players bad enough to want to keep stacks small would be raked heavily but in principle, in an unraked game you really shouldn’t be passing on an opportunity to raise.

The preflop edge would be small if they had reasonable limping ranges but we all know they don’t. There are for sure a lot of trash hands in there and your equity edge is not just 1 or 2%.

 

[Anthony Martino]

The distinction rarely matters because almost any game with players bad enough to want to keep stacks small would be raked heavily but in principle, in an unraked game you really shouldn’t be passing on an opportunity to raise.

The preflop edge would be small if they had reasonable limping ranges but we all know they don’t. There are for sure a lot of trash hands in there and your equity edge is not just 1 or 2%.

Not saying to keep stacks small, but pots small when OOP and relatively deepstacked. As @DrStrange mentioned, raising preflop in spots like this just means we're bloating the pot for whomever winds up taking it down. As equities run really close preflop, we're juicing a pot when we're at a positional disadvantage. If you were on the button and wanted to raise this holding, I could get behind it, but OOP I'm just not a fan given the makeup of opponents and stack depth.

Even someone with a shitty hand like 9753 isn't doing terrible against our AKJ4 ds, preflop on an equity basis.

 

[grebe]

So I guess I took the worst of all options...
Hero:. Bet $3.00
MP:. Call
CO:. Raise $20

-my thinking here is top 2 is ok, and everybody has a chance to bet. Few rivers will look very good, but maybe somebody with worse 2 pair will pay me off. All folds would be welcome.

-A call and a raise though, anybody want to argue CO is looking at a weak bet and a call and bluffing 2 opponents showing weakness, and this is a hero call?

We fold and MP does as well. CO doesn't show.

 

[Anthony Martino]

So I guess I took the worst of all options...
Hero:. Bet $3.00
MP:. Call
CO:. Raise $20

-my thinking here is top 2 is ok, and everybody has a chance to bet. Few rivers will look very good, but maybe somebody with worse 2 pair will pay me off. All folds would be welcome.

-A call and a raise though, anybody want to argue CO is looking at a weak bet and a call and bluffing 2 opponents showing weakness, and this is a hero call?

We fold and MP does as well. CO doesn't show.

A fold is fine I think. But I am a self-professed nit, so I'm sure someone will say POOOOOTTTT MFKER!

 

[grebe]

A fold is fine I think. But I am a self-professed nit, so I'm sure someone will say POOOOOTTTT MFKER!

All advice is taken weighted against previous comments and pay experience. Its a sliding scale.

For example, @detroitdad is taken for entertainment purposes only.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Also, how was I not TAGGED in the OP????!!!!!!

 

[detroitdad]

All advice is taken weighted against previous comments and pay experience. Its a sliding scale.

For example, @detroitdad is taken for entertainment purposes only.

For the record, I would have played it as I stated

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

Not saying to keep stacks small, but pots small when OOP and relatively deepstacked. As @DrStrange mentioned, raising preflop in spots like this just means we're bloating the pot for whomever winds up taking it down. As equities run really close preflop, we're juicing a pot when we're at a positional disadvantage. If you were on the button and wanted to raise this holding, I could get behind it, but OOP I'm just not a fan given the makeup of opponents and stack depth.

Even someone with a shitty hand like 9753 isn't doing terrible against our AKJ4 ds, preflop on an equity basis.

Do you not raise kQs out of the bb on hold em against 4 weak limps because your avg equity is only in the high 20s? you have to flop a piece to win there too.


If they’re bad enough to raise postflop with underpairs “for protection” and call down multiple pot sized beds with weak pairs or weak draws in multi-way pots then might as well wait to see if you hit a piece.

Just like if in Omaha they’re raising with bottom two pair on wet boards and calling down pot sized bets on multiple streets with low flushes then you might as well keep it small pre, but few are punting that hard at 20/40c online.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Not saying to keep stacks small, but pots small when OOP and relatively deepstacked. As @DrStrange mentioned, raising preflop in spots like this just means we're bloating the pot for whomever winds up taking it down. As equities run really close preflop, we're juicing a pot when we're at a positional disadvantage. If you were on the button and wanted to raise this holding, I could get behind it, but OOP I'm just not a fan given the makeup of opponents and stack depth.

Even someone with a shitty hand like 9753 isn't doing terrible against our AKJ4 ds, preflop on an equity basis.

I apologize, I gave the good Doc credit for something @Moxie Mike said regarding building the pot for whomever winds up winning it.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Do you not raise kQs out of the bb against 4 weak limps because your avg equity is only in the high 20s? you have to flop a piece to win there too.


If they’re bad enough to raise postflop with underpairs “for protection” and call down multiple pot sized beds with weak pairs or weak draws in multi-way pots then might as well wait to see if you hit a piece.

Just like if in Omaha they’re raising with bottom two pair on wet boards and calling down pot sized bets on multiple streets with low flushes then you might as well keep it small pre, but few are punting that hard at 20/40c online.

I don't play those stakes online so I can't really comment on what sort of plays you see. But I generally have NO preflop raising range, which I've discussed a number of times before.

Unless I can get stacks in preflop with a hand I feel has decent equity, or I create such a low SPR that I'm almost never folding on the flop, I rarely raise. Sometimes I'll make a juicer raise when I have a positional advantage on the field, but I can't remember ever raising when out of position and deep-stacked.

My goal is to pull as many players into the pot as possible. While it does lower the chances of my hand winning since I'm facing more opposition, it:

1. Handcuffs the overly aggressive players and the savvy/strong opponents as it's difficult to bluff when going 5+ handed to the flop

2. Makes it easier for the weaker players to come into the pot with weaker holdings. These are the type of players you will make most of your money off of. The guys that overplay top and bottom pair, idiot ends of straights, non-nut flushes and underfulls. They want to play as many hands as possible, I don't want to discourage them.

Yes, I will win less individual pots overall because I'm facing more opponents, but the times I make a hand it's much easier to get paid off because I'm facing more opponents, and someone will overvalue their 8-high flush because many players in these games carry a hold 'em mentality to hand values. "I flopped bottom set on a 679 board, I can't let them catch up, POT!"

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

You’re more likely to find that type of player at 1c/2c than 20/40c.

If the players were that bad at $50nl people would still be making $100/h grinding the micros… unfortunately the year is not 2005.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Do you not raise kQs out of the bb on hold em against 4 weak limps because your avg equity is only in the high 20s? you have to flop a piece to win there too.

You don't raise in NLHE for the same reasons that you raise pre in PLO.

In NLHE, you raise pre to narrow the field and put any remaining players on notice that they need to connect with the flop in a strong way because they're probably going to be facing another bet on the next street. In your KQs instance, raising depends on your opponents' tendencies. If raising will narrow the field to heads up or take it down outright, then by all means a raise the appropriate play. But if you can anticipate 3-4 callers, then it makes more sense to check and under-rep your hand.

PLO is different because preflop raises don't tend to clear out limpers or discourage cold callers who've yet to act. In fact, it's a decent strategy to limp a hand you want to see a flop with... that way if someone raises you can call, closing the action. If you open the betting and someone 3-bets you, it makes it much more difficult because if you continue you're guaranteed to play a large pot OOP.

 

[grebe]

Also, how was I not TAGGED in the OP????!!!!!!

View attachment 871541I'

I'll tag you from now on.

BTW, I played some Omaha and NLHE mix over the weekend. Let's just say that live poker is not dead. The shit people called with was mind boggling. Online is much tougher....but a great place to learn. The only downside is the speed of play was unreal. I will be calling O8 at that game every deal from now on. ANY low was call worthy. Thanks to @Seeking Alpha Social Club for the in.

 

[grebe]

Do you not raise kQs out of the bb on hold em against 4 weak limps because your avg equity is only in the high 20s? you have to flop a piece to win there too.


If they’re bad enough to raise postflop with underpairs “for protection” and call down multiple pot sized beds with weak pairs or weak draws in multi-way pots then might as well wait to see if you hit a piece.

Just like if in Omaha they’re raising with bottom two pair on wet boards and calling down pot sized bets on multiple streets with low flushes then you might as well keep it small pre, but few are punting that hard at 20/40c online.

You cannot compare holdem and PLO....does not compute.

 

[Anthony Martino]

You cannot compare holdem and PLO....does not compute.

Your equity preflop in hold em can be a lot larger than in PLO in most instances

You won't get an 80/20 spot pre in a pair vs pair situation.

But postflop you can have people inclined to stack off in PLO drawing dead or close to ot, in my experience, more so than hold em

 

[grebe]

What are you representing by potting it in this spot? That you were sandbagging a made hand on the flop? That doesn't seem believable after raising pre from the BB. You could be repping that you spiked a set on the turn... but your hand still is problematic if you're called.

Depending on who's in the game, you also run the risk of someone in position floating. Your hand really can't take any pressure, and you're going to tell them that by checking the river. A savvy opponent could easily move you off your hand by potting the river when checked to.

So the only case for potting it here is if you're also going to pot it on the river. I don't think a two-barrel bluff gets through if you're called on the turn. Betting = -EV.

So checking is the better option. If someone in position takes a stab at it, you can possibly call and see what they do on the river. Folding if someone bets isn't a bad play either.

You have a lot of good points in this....and the one I would like to emphasize is that a savvy player could pressure us out. The reason I posted this hand is because of this exact scenario. Did the CO bluff us out? Very possible.

One point that I would like to make is that there are other options than POT. Pot is only the upper limit.