PLO hand discussion (2 Viewers)

[Stufflymcstuff]

Of course you can compare hold em and Omaha. There is no equivalent to raising with aces pre because no hand is that big a favorite in Omaha but there are many strong hands with comparable equity to strong Omaha hands.

Playing nitty from the blinds like this is common in holdem too and is an equally big mistake, it just takes somewhat of a different form because you hardly ever see open limps. Instead it’s comparable to spots where there’s a late position open, 2 flats, and people rationalize their way out of squeezing with premium non nutted hands. The player pool is too strong to pass on these spots.


not having raises out of the blinds isn’t going to single handedly sink you in plo, but the mentality of passing on good spots because better spots may present themselves later will make it impossible to be a big winner in these games. The games are very nitty. At a 6max table at least 4 and usually 5 of the seats will be grinders, and you have to play theoretically sound against them while waiting your turn to scoop the fish.

 

[Senzrock]

So I guess I took the worst of all options...
Hero:. Bet $3.00
MP:. Call
CO:. Raise $20

-my thinking here is top 2 is ok, and everybody has a chance to bet. Few rivers will look very good, but maybe somebody with worse 2 pair will pay me off. All folds would be welcome.

-A call and a raise though, anybody want to argue CO is looking at a weak bet and a call and bluffing 2 opponents showing weakness, and this is a hero call?

We fold and MP does as well. CO doesn't show.

Yeah standard fold as played. Good learning spot imo that shows you how weak your hand is both on the flop and even on the turn. I still like the raise pre but both flop and turn are both checks to get to cheap showdown or see if we can drill the boat on the river.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Of course you can compare hold em and Omaha. There is no equivalent to raising with aces pre because no hand is that big a favorite in Omaha but there are many strong hands with comparable equity to strong Omaha hands.

Playing nitty from the blinds like this is common in holdem too and is an equally big mistake, it just takes somewhat of a different form because you hardly ever see open limps. Instead it’s comparable to spots where there’s a late position open, 2 flats, and people rationalize their way out of squeezing with premium non nutted hands. The player pool is too strong to pass on these spots.


not having raises out of the blinds isn’t going to single handedly sink you in plo, but the mentality of passing on good spots because better spots may present themselves later will make it impossible to be a big winner in these games. The games are very nitty. At a 6max table at least 4 and usually 5 of the seats will be grinders, and you have to play theoretically sound against them while waiting your turn to scoop the fish.

Valid points. I don't really play 6 max, I'm a full ring guy. Aggression and hand ranges increase in the 6 max streets

 

[grebe]

This hand is at a .2/.4 PLO 6 max table....it is pretty crazy with the betting and deep stacks are going in

The games are very nitty. At a 6max table at least 4 and usually 5 of the seats will be grinders, and you have to play theoretically sound against them while waiting your turn to scoop the fish.

At odds...not sure where you are playing, but this table in particular is not what you are describing.

 

[Moxie Mike]

You have a lot of good points in this....and the one I would like to emphasize is that a savvy player could pressure us out. The reason I posted this hand is because of this exact scenario. Did the CO bluff us out? Very possible.

The c/o could be bluffing. But if they are it's probably because they're a spewy player and less because of they've made some incredible soul-read.

So in order to make a hero-call, you'd need to have seen the c/o make a similar play in the past. If you've seen them go to showdown with garbo, then it's maybe worth considering. But you have another problem here. You have no idea what the MP player is going to do. Calling incentivizes them to call too since he'll be getting better than 3:1 on a call ($17 to win $57). If he's got a set or a wheel, it's going to be difficult for him to find a fold getting those kinds of odds.

So is the c/o the type to run a bluff like this into two players who've called AND the button who is yet to act? Perhaps but I doubt it. I suspect he has at least a wheel (or probably the nuts) and checked the flop to feign weakness hoping the button would stab at it. Now that the pot's a little larger, he's not going to pass the opportunity to drop the hammer.

One point that I would like to make is that there are other options than POT. Pot is only the upper limit.

Betting in PLO is very much about the price you're laying. By potting it, the worst odds you can lay is 2:1 on a call.

When the stacks are shallow, you generally want to bet as much as possible when you hold the nuts or a monster draw because you're trying to get to where there are no more decisions to make before the river (or have so few chips remaining that you're never folding). When you're deeper though things change because making the pot huge can be problematic if the turn or river cards are scary and there's still a lot of money left to bet.

@Anthony Martino can talk more about this since he's the knowledgeable one here when it comes to manipulating SPRs, etc. But it's probably worth pointing out that those are some pretty advanced concepts that I'm not sure has a lot of applicability at the micros.

 

[Anthony Martino]

@Anthony Martino can talk more about this since he's the knowledgeable one here when it comes to manipulating SPRs, etc. But it's probably worth pointing out that those are some pretty advanced concepts that I'm not sure has a lot of applicability at the micros.

As far as manipulating SPR's, I really only do that preflop with a limp-repot line, if I'm getting my stack in pre, or creating a low SPR that most flops I'm getting the rest in

Post-flop I rarely make any cute bets that are less than pot. If I have a hand strong enough to bet, it's likely going to be for pot

The only time I make less than pot bets are preflop if I'm juicing a pot in position, or setting an over-aggro player up to reraise me, so I can repot

And then on a river I might make a smaller bet to extract value from a player I think will pay it off, but isn't strong enough to pay a full pot bet

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

big bets and stacks getting in doesn’t mean they’re getting in with nonsense hands. Nitty is maybe not the best word to describe the games if you’re thinking of aggression in terms of hold em - but Omaha is supposed to be played more aggressively with much larger sizing and stacks should be getting in much more regularly.

If you had specific hands where different players were way out of line then it’s a different story, but a table where stacks are getting in - that’s not a sign that people are punting.

At odds...not sure where you are playing, but this table in particular is not what you are describing.

 

[Moxie Mike]

@grebe So how did the rest of the hand play out? Did you get to see what the CO held?

 

[grebe]

@grebe So how did the rest of the hand play out? Did you get to see what the CO held?

No, Hero and MP folded to the pot bet on the turn. No idea what CO had, other than a chunky pot bet.

Sounds like I made a mistake potting preflop, check is good on flop, bet/fold is not awful on turn, but maybe check/call would have been the better play. I think there is a good chance I got bluffed here.

 

[Senzrock]

No, Hero and MP folded to the pot bet on the turn. No idea what CO had, other than a chunky pot bet.

Sounds like I made a mistake potting preflop, check is good on flop, bet/fold is not awful on turn, but maybe check/call would have been the better play. I think there is a good chance I got bluffed here.

In these games, it doesn't seem like someone would be bluffing in this exact situation. You could well have KKK here and not be in the mood to fold to villain. I wouldn't worry about being bluffed, more just about identifying when/why to bet in hands like these. Pre was fine, flop was a larger mistake and turn was a smaller mistake.

 

[grebe]

In these games, it doesn't seem like someone would be bluffing in this exact situation. You could well have KKK here and not be in the mood to fold to villain. I wouldn't worry about being bluffed, more just about identifying when/why to bet in hands like these. Pre was fine, flop was a larger mistake and turn was a smaller mistake.

Why was flop a mistake?

 

[Senzrock]

Why was flop a mistake?

Scroll up lol

So I guess I took the worst of all options...
Hero:. Bet $3.00

 

[grebe]

That was the turn.

Flop checked thru.

 

[Senzrock]

That was the turn.

Flop checked thru.

Correct, my mistake. Thought it was a bet flop bet turn but the bet flop was @detroitdad lol

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

With 4 other players it’s very reasonable to check/fold the turn depending on bet size and who bet.

you often have the best hand but it’s not like you can rule out straights and especially not sets. Omaha 5 players to the flop…. Huge range disadvantage… dry board… out of position…. just check here again probably with all of your range.