Pocket Kings early/mid stages multi-table tournament - how would you play this hand? (1 Viewer)

[ChipMonster]

I’m looking for some advice on how I could’ve played this hand differently and if anyone has a solver, what it recommends. I’m worried I could’ve prevented this if I tweaked my bet sizing up but wouldn’t have then made value in the majority of the times I win in this scenario.

Earlyish stages of multi-table tournament just after first break when real action starts and people begin to get knocked out fairly frequently. Everyone starts with 7,500 in chips and I’m sitting at about 12,000…

Blinds are 200/400. Table is playing a bit loose with multiple people trying to limp into every pot and staying in afterwards when they shouldn’t.

I’m in the big blind and dealt pocket Kings diamond and spade. UTG limps in, CO limps in, SB makes the call so now pot is at 1,600. UTG has about 5,000 in chips, CO has about 9,000 and SB has about 5,000. UTG and CO are calling machines and SB is playing pretty tight.

What’s the optimal play pre-flop?

I raise to 1,200 and only CO calls so now pot is 4,000.

Flop is A diamonds, K hearts, 8 hearts which is a fantastic situation for me except for 2 hearts on the board… I want to trap CO if he paired his ace while still pricing him out of a flush draw.

What’s the optimal play post-flop?

I throw in 3,000 and he calls so I’m pretty sure my trap worked and he had an ace and not a flush draw. Pot is now 10,000 and CO has about 4,800 behind and I have 7,800.

Turn is 6 hearts so now there’s 3 hearts on the board…

What’s the optimal play on the turn?

Given I didn’t put him on a flush draw, I still want value so I throw out 2,500 and he re-raises and goes all-in. What’s the optimal play here?

I make an easy snap call and we flip cars. He shows an ace of spades and a 5 of hearts…

I’m sure you guessed what’s next on the river… a 2 of hearts and he makes his back door flush.

Where did I go wrong? Should I have slowed down with betting once the 3rd heart came and checked to him and prepare to throw away trip kings? Should I have bet larger pre? Bet larger on flop? Or is just one of those freaking annoying poker hands?

 

[SwissChip]

Hard to say. Maybe the 2500 bet on the turn is quite low. If you shove, maybe he folds. But you need balls. Big un‘s!

 

[Legend5555]

Raise larger pre. 3x after 3 limpers AND you are OOP. That's 5-7x spot. I'd be tempted to raise as large as possible such that action is open back to me if the 5k stack jams.

As played, CO has only half pot left. You are never folding no matter what happens so just jam. He's going to be getting 3 to 1 and isn't even going to fold most draws. When stacks are this short against players limp calling on 20bb, you can just play a two street game most of the time as they won't often fold any piece they flop.

 

[kaimat]

I don't know that you went wrong. You got it all in and were ahead 75% to win on the river (an A pairs the board and gives you a full house).

It's unfortunate that you lost the hand, but you were in a good spot.

 

[NotRealNameNoSir]

Next time give it street by street and dont give ending away too soon. Im betting more pre with 3 in already.

You bet to trap an ace and scare away a flush draw but the most obvious flush draw he could have is Axhh for top pair/flush draw. We know the answer now but when he calls a big flop bet OOP Im spooked if a heart shows up, not placated. Just food for thought.

As played you got it in way ahead and he played horribly. Almost losing 30 bb with a super weak ace is sad, sorry he sucked out on ya.

 

[Natskule]

I don't know that you went wrong. You got it all in and were ahead 75% to win on the river (an A pairs the board and gives you a full house).

It's unfortunate that you lost the hand, but you were in a good spot.

Sometimes you just lose. If you can't accept it then poker will drive you mad. Having a good session often depends on understanding that. Learn from it if a mistake was made, remember what other players did in the situation and move on to the next hand or game. This goes for lucking into a winning hand as well. Up swings can screw up a player as much as a down swing.

 

[horseshoez]

I'm not sure I could go as far as saying how you could have prevented it because, as we all know, losing hands like that is part of the game. It happens. It’ll continue to happen. Just focus on why you made this post, which I think is extremely healthy: wanting to assess the hand and find any flaws in how you played it for future spots similar to these.

Only two things stick out to me from all you’ve mentioned:

Turn: When the third heart hits, it’s a critical point. Betting 2,500 into a 10,000 pot is a bit small considering the flush draw possibility. A larger bet (closer to 5,000) would put more pressure on the flush draws and better define your opponent’s range. If you get re-raised after a larger bet, you can more confidently fold knowing it’s likely you’re beaten. All of this depends on the villain. Is he the type of player you can scare with the heart even when he has top pair? Do you find lots of folds from the villain when someone leads out very aggressively, or is he sticky and calls with top pair no matter what? That information is super important in a spot like this. I always assess before I decide and ask myself this, “If I’m putting my opponent on X, what will it take for him to go away IF he is the type of player who buckles under pressure?” If it's a splashy group that likes to stick around with any two cards and any top pair, that’s just a tough spot and he won’t go anywhere.

Decision after re-raise: With the third heart and a significant re-raise all-in, it’s usually likely you’re up against a flush when playing with a group like that. Although this wasn’t the situation here, it’s usually the case. Folding here would be somewhat unconventional and some would actually call it crazy, but if one is concerned with their tournament life, sometimes a fold is in order. Do I personally fold here? 8 out of 10 times, no.

In summary:

- Pre-flop: Your raise size was fine.
- Flop: Your bet was well-placed.
- Turn: Consider a larger bet to protect against flush draws.
- Facing re-raise: Be more cautious with three hearts on the board, but there is always the chance the board pairs up and you scoop. It’s a race to the finish at this point. A flip.

As I said above, bad beats happen, but it’s very healthy to take notes for a specific hand for future reference. Speaking of which, for future reference, you’ll win half of those if not more later on. Keep on truckin’!

 

[BGinGA]

I'm raising to 4k pre-flop, planning on jamming the flop. Whatever happens, happens.

As played:
Pre -- I raise bigger.
Flop -- I bet bigger. A lot bigger.
Turn -- All you can eat, baby.... but this should have been a decision for stacks on the flop, imo.
River -- shit happens.

 

[Mojo1312]

Hero's goal at this stage of the tournament with two calling stations is to get value out of his big hands. The BB is a perfect spot for an over-bet -- 1800 is about right from my perspective. Hero bets 3/4 pot post-flop with a set of kings and is called by a weak ace, weak backdoor flush draw. I like Hero's bet sizing here.

The turn play is largely irrelevant. Based on the O.P., our Villain is pot committed.

Which leads us back to the post flop raise. Villain calls 1800. 5200 pot. Hero has 10K, Villain, 7K behind. In the words of Bob Marley, post flop, "I be jammin."

 

[horseshoez]

I'm raising to 4k pre-flop, planning on jamming the flop. Whatever happens, happens.

As played:
Pre -- I raise bigger.
Flop -- I bet bigger. A lot bigger.
Turn -- All you can eat, baby.... but this should have been a decision for stacks on the flop, imo.
River -- shit happens.

I was also thinking the same thing regarding pre-flop sizing. Sure, it's already 3x, but over time I've learned that 2-3x raises out of position can often be very costly. I'm going to punish the CO limper with that type of hand, and if it means inducing a fold pre-flop, so be it. Sometimes collecting 1-2BB at a time is better than going to showdown. Think of it like collecting lives: every small pot won, whether pre or post-flop without going to showdown, is like adding lives to your game. The more lives you have, the deeper you'll run unless faced with a cooler.

Whenever we see AA or KK, many of us instinctively think, "I'm taking this to showdown and milking anyone who gets in my way." This mindset can cloud our judgment and impair our post-flop analysis of the hand.

 

[BPTDirector]

My take on kk is that it’s rarely a winner post flop so especially in your instance where there’s 3 bets in before you it’s time to make it too expensive for speculative hands to call and hit. Win now, play later….

 

[upNdown]

I don't know that you went wrong. You got it all in and were ahead 75% to win on the river (an A pairs the board and gives you a full house).

It's unfortunate that you lost the hand, but you were in a good spot.

Right? When we have a set, we’re charging people for their draws to get their chips in the middle, not to get them to fold, right? I think that hand went exactly as we wanted it to. But sometimes the river sucks.

 

[ChipMonster]

All great insight here. Basically, I got penalized for trying to milk more value and should’ve just been more aggressive pre flop. Either way, shit happens with hands like this in poker and I end up getting paid more often than not in this situation. I had the right read on the opponent, he just pulled off a lucky result so not sure if I necessarily played incorrectly, the poker gods just weren’t in my favor that night (after being crippled with this hand I ended up busting out shortly after with KQs in SB on another unlucky hand where I caught 2 pair on the turn and opponent paired his ace on the flop and the board paired on the river…)

 

[upNdown]

should’ve just been more aggressive pre flop

To what end?
You think you should have been more agressive pre, to get everybody to fold?
When I have KK, I want a caller.

 

[FestiveKnight]

All great insight here. Basically, I got penalized for trying to milk more value and should’ve just been more aggressive pre flop.

or not, right? I’m just as interested reading the takes of the folks who know much more than me but I think there is an equally valid conclusion that you played this okay and the river just sucked.

Personally I would have bet bigger, I often play like @horseshoez suggests, collecting a few BB when we’ve got a strong preflop hand. We’ll make nuts value later when our suited connectors hit. With several bets in before us I think we make it big pre flop and let it happen

 

[allforcharity]

I see no big mistake. You want to get called by worse in an all-in situation and you did. You just got sucked out. He had flush draws, you had boat draws with a made hand.

 

[ChipMonster]

To what end?
You think you should have been more agressive pre, to get everybody to fold?
When I have KK, I want a caller.

Very true, the hand went pretty much how I wanted it to until I just got dealt a shit sandwich at the river. Large percentage of the time I’m collecting his bounty and profiting nicely. Oh well, maybe next time…

 

[ChipMonster]

I'm not sure I could go as far as saying how you could have prevented it because, as we all know, losing hands like that is part of the game. It happens. It’ll continue to happen. Just focus on why you made this post, which I think is extremely healthy: wanting to assess the hand and find any flaws in how you played it for future spots similar to these.

Only two things stick out to me from all you’ve mentioned:

Turn: When the third heart hits, it’s a critical point. Betting 2,500 into a 10,000 pot is a bit small considering the flush draw possibility. A larger bet (closer to 5,000) would put more pressure on the flush draws and better define your opponent’s range. If you get re-raised after a larger bet, you can more confidently fold knowing it’s likely you’re beaten. All of this depends on the villain. Is he the type of player you can scare with the heart even when he has top pair? Do you find lots of folds from the villain when someone leads out very aggressively, or is he sticky and calls with top pair no matter what? That information is super important in a spot like this. I always assess before I decide and ask myself this, “If I’m putting my opponent on X, what will it take for him to go away IF he is the type of player who buckles under pressure?” If it's a splashy group that likes to stick around with any two cards and any top pair, that’s just a tough spot and he won’t go anywhere.

Decision after re-raise: With the third heart and a significant re-raise all-in, it’s usually likely you’re up against a flush when playing with a group like that. Although this wasn’t the situation here, it’s usually the case. Folding here would be somewhat unconventional and some would actually call it crazy, but if one is concerned with their tournament life, sometimes a fold is in order. Do I personally fold here? 8 out of 10 times, no.

In summary:

- Pre-flop: Your raise size was fine.
- Flop: Your bet was well-placed.
- Turn: Consider a larger bet to protect against flush draws.
- Facing re-raise: Be more cautious with three hearts on the board, but there is always the chance the board pairs up and you scoop. It’s a race to the finish at this point. A flip.

As I said above, bad beats happen, but it’s very healthy to take notes for a specific hand for future reference. Speaking of which, for future reference, you’ll win half of those if not more later on. Keep on truckin’!

Thanks. I’m just chalking it up to the feeling I get when playing really low stakes online where people play any two cards and catch the most random stuff. I just need to be better about exploiting and not tap on the glass! It’s just super frustrating because I’ve played this specific tournament maybe 6 times and only cashed once by getting 2nd place and another 4 times I’ve basically encountered these same scenarios with unbelievable bad beats where people shouldn’t still be in hands theoretically that pull off miracles.

The weird part to me with this particular hand is that he caught the back door flush with such a low card, 5 of hearts and he played it as he did…. How did he know I didn’t already make my flush when the 3rd heart hit on the turn? The only explanation is that he thought his aces were good and that I was betting with a king in my hand. Either way, I don’t think I could’ve made the same calls as him with a rag ace and a back door flush draw on the turn with such a low card...

Part of the intent of this post is to ask what process other people do to analyze hands and how they’ve played. Do people subscribe to GTO solvers? What’s the best approach to continuous learning? I play a ton online so get my reps in and have solid results am trying to get more exposure to in-person games, specifically through this tournament since it’s fairly casual (which may be part of the issue…)

 

[slurpeee]

Next time give it street by street and dont give ending away too soon. Im betting more pre with 3 in already.

You bet to trap an ace and scare away a flush draw but the most obvious flush draw he could have is Axhh for top pair/flush draw. We know the answer now but when he calls a big flop bet OOP Im spooked if a heart shows up, not placated. Just food for thought.

As played you got it in way ahead and he played horribly. Almost losing 30 bb with a super weak ace is sad, sorry he sucked out on ya.

Agree 100%.... also, that's a super complicated shirt on your avatar. That must be very expensive.

 

[Josh Kifer]

Weak raise preflop, you needed to hit it a lot harder. Don't throw up a trap when you can trap yourself on the flop.

But, poker is a game of odds. You just need to make sure you put it all in when the odds are in your favor. You did that. It doesn't mean you'll always win em. But if the players call when they are behind, you'll profit in the long run. Just be a bit bolder with your bets.

 

[horseshoez]

Thanks. I’m just chalking it up to the feeling I get when playing really low stakes online where people play any two cards and catch the most random stuff. I just need to be better about exploiting and not tap on the glass! It’s just super frustrating because I’ve played this specific tournament maybe 6 times and only cashed once by getting 2nd place and another 4 times I’ve basically encountered these same scenarios with unbelievable bad beats where people shouldn’t still be in hands theoretically that pull off miracles.

The weird part to me with this particular hand is that he caught the back door flush with such a low card, 5 of hearts and he played it as he did…. How did he know I didn’t already make my flush when the 3rd heart hit on the turn? The only explanation is that he thought his aces were good and that I was betting with a king in my hand. Either way, I don’t think I could’ve made the same calls as him with a rag ace and a back door flush draw on the turn with such a low card...

The answer to this part is in this below...

Blinds are 200/400. Table is playing a bit loose with multiple people trying to limp into every pot and staying in afterwards when they shouldn’t.

Don’t get me wrong—I’m not saying he shouldn’t have stayed in that long. There are plenty of scenarios where a pair of Aces holds up, or even Ax hitting two pair on the turn. He might have put you on Kx, but that largely depends on your table image and how that player perceives your range.

When you said you wouldn’t have made the same calls with a rag Ace, you’re projecting your playstyle onto your opponent rather than analyzing his. A few years ago, when I really started focusing on improving my game, I had to rewire my thinking. Instead of asking, "What would I do with xx?" I began to ask, "What combos would this player call with, and does his bet sizing align with his typical playstyle for those hands?"

In tournaments like the one you’re playing in, you’ll be amazed at how often you can detect patterns. Many players don’t realize they’re displaying specific patterns with certain hands. The best time to pick up on these patterns is when you’re not in a hand—just observe how the hand plays out, and you’ll start seeing patterns everywhere.

Overall, even if you played the hand perfectly, your opponent might still suck out on the river. It happens. The key is not letting that hand affect your future play. If you stay focused and keep observing, you’ll win these hands more often than not.

 

[Taghkanic]

Mainly just variance here; you win enough as played.

You could bet a bit bigger pre; based on descriptions I’m surprised 1,200 got you heads up. Make it 2K and hope one station calls.

Then you can bet more like 5-6K on the flop.

Taking the pot down when it is that big is a win; increasing your stack by 25-40% is nontrivial in a tournament with stacks this size.

If he does call, then you get it in on the turn with you as the aggressor.

His play is terrible on every street. He’s behind your raising range or at best flipping preflop. Postflop you can have all the sets, a better A, and/or a stronger draw. He just got very fortunate that it went runner-runner hearts and a 5 high flush was good.

 

[JustinInMN]

This is more a bad beat story than a bad strategy issue.

At first glance I might have gone for a bigger sizing preflop with 3 limpers, but since in reality you did isolate to one player, maybe that wouldn't have been necessary.

I like the 3000 sizing on this flop. You are definitely trying to play for stacks here and checking doesn't help that goal too often.

I throw in 3,000 and he calls so I’m pretty sure my trap worked and he had an ace and not a flush draw. Pot is now 10,000 and CO has about 4,800 behind and I have 7,800.

Turn is 6 hearts so now there’s 3 hearts on the board…

What’s the optimal play on the turn?

Given I didn’t put him on a flush draw, I still want value so I throw out 2,500 and he re-raises and goes all-in. What’s the optimal play here?

This is the only decision point I would take an issue with here. You have already described this player as a calling machine, so you should get it out of your mentality that you need to "trap" this player with a fancy play. There's 10K in the pot and villain is 4800 effective, this sizing really screams for all in here.

Two downsides to your sizing.
1) This could be picked up as a sizing tell. Someone could observe an obvious underbet at this situation means strength.
2) This could price villain in with draws weaker than a flush draw (pair and gutshot sort of hands, for example.) instead of getting him to fold a big pot. This is the bigger concern with this sort of villain as described.

All that being said, I don't think it matters much in this hand, a calling station is calling 4800 in this pot with an ace anyway if hero shoves. I just have more issue with the mentality that calling stations require extra cleverness to trap. By their very nature, they don't. You need to approach calling stations by value betting on the larger side at every opportunity. That's how you maximize your advantage, not by setting traps. Calling stations will trap themselves, all you have to do is provide them the opportunity to pay off large sizing of your choosing.

So nothing to be done with this hand, it's a bad beat. You did accomplish the right goal from your hand, get your whole stack in the middle with the best of it. Sometimes the deck helps out losers. It actually helps out the losers more than the winners because the losers are in losing situations more often than the winners.

But the big takeaway is changing your approach to calling stations. It probably doesn't change anything this hand, but there are spots where this sort of fancy play will cost you value.

 

[Taghkanic]

In a tourney, I don’t think the goal is so clearly to play for stacks every time (depending of course on the field and your edge). Gaining a significant chuck of chips is very valuable even if you don’t stack the guy.

 

[doctorchips]

"Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose. That’s not weakness, that’s life"

 

[JustinInMN]

All great insight here. Basically, I got penalized for trying to milk more value and should’ve just been more aggressive pre flop. Either way, shit happens with hands like this in poker and I end up getting paid more often than not in this situation. I had the right read on the opponent, he just pulled off a lucky result so not sure if I necessarily played incorrectly, the poker gods just weren’t in my favor that night (after being crippled with this hand I ended up busting out shortly after with KQs in SB on another unlucky hand where I caught 2 pair on the turn and opponent paired his ace on the flop and the board paired on the river…)

No I don't think this is at all what happened.

Yes, you are correct you got a little fancy on the turn and you don't need to do that at all if villain is a calling station.

But again, I think all the chips are going in the middle even if you open shove the turn and the river is going to be the river. You'll with this pot 82% (36 of 44 unseen cards are safe) of the time, but 18% is not zero (8 unseen hearts aside from the ace), sometimes that hits and accepting that is part of the game.

 

[JustinInMN]

In a tourney, I don’t think the goal is so clearly to play for stacks every time (depending of course on the field and your edge). Gaining a significant chuck of chips is very valuable even if you don’t stack the guy.

I agree that's not the goal in every hand in a tournament. But in this situation on the flop with villain only 18-20BB deep, and roughly 8-9BB in pot already, playing for stacks is a clear goal having flopped a set as hero.

I really like the bet sizing on the flop. Hero probably wants villain to shove here, but villain calling is good news too. If villain (as a calling station) just folds, then there probably just isn't anything to be done to get extra value no matter what hero does, so stack the pot and play the next hand. But betting 7.5BB to try and get villain to commit his last 18BB one way or another makes total sense.

 

[Brandon]

I don't know that you went wrong. You got it all in and were ahead 75% to win on the river (an A pairs the board and gives you a full house).

It's unfortunate that you lost the hand, but you were in a good spot.

I’m with you here. OP is asking as though he made a mistake. No reason to try to push out a guy that hit top pair while you flopped a set. River brought you a bad beat. OP wouldn’t even be asking this question if a 4th heart hadn’t fallen. ChipMonster, you read him right. Put him on ace and not flush draw. He sucked out. NBD. Take the loss and move on.

 

[upNdown]

The funny thing which nobody has mentioned is that the villain also put the hero on a flush draw, most likely. Neither player wanted to see that river heart.

 

[ChipMonster]

I’m with you here. OP is asking as though he made a mistake. No reason to try to push out a guy that hit top pair while you flopped a set. River brought you a bad beat. OP wouldn’t even be asking this question if a 4th heart hadn’t fallen. ChipMonster, you read him right. Put him on ace and not flush draw. He sucked out. NBD. Take the loss and move on.

Agree 100%. I think that any larger pre bet would have possibly induced a fold but no way of knowing that now. I think as soon as the flop came we were bound to get all in right then based on his stack size so I probably could have just jammed there, possibly inducing another fold and moving on with my tournament life.

This all is why we all love poker, so many different scenarios, different ways to play each hand, different ways of mixing it up, and different reads on each situation. Previous to this point of the tournament I was playing fairly tight/aggressive with strong hands and not actually winning many chips so with this hand I was actually trying to mix it up a little bit and get people in for the ride and it didn’t work.

Oh well, just keep on moving forward and playing!