Pocket sevens, early in The Rumble in the Rockies (1 Viewer)

[ushallnotraise]

Flat. Folding is the worst play possible by far, and while I'd sometimes advocate a 3bet you saw villain flat a 3bet with 82 earlier.

 

[DrStrange]

*** now the flop ***

Hero calls. 4,000 in the pot, heads up. 15,300 effective.

Flop is

Action on Hero. Bet or check, if betting how much?

 

[atomiktoaster]

Bet 3k

 

[thorwilliam]

As stated, the OP did limp with AA earlier, so I don't have a problem with the limp here (in this position).

Not a fan of that play either. I think the only position I would consider limping with aces is in the sb if it is folded around to me and stacks are short and the bb aggressive.
I would raise pre and hope to take down the blinds or get a defend from the passive player in the bb and play a pot in position against them.

 

[ushallnotraise]

Bet 1800.

 

[thorwilliam]

*** now the flop ***

Hero calls. 4,000 in the pot, heads up. 15,300 effective.

Flop is

Action on Hero. Bet or check, if betting how much?

I would go for the check-raise here.

 

[ushallnotraise]

I would go for the check-raise here.

And if villain checks behind and the turn is a spade that doesn't complete our straight flush? Or an Ace, King, Queen or Jack?

A spade and we need to check/fold our hand. Paint or an ace and we probably check/call, not knowing where we are in the hand. Giving villain an opportunity to check behind completely obscures his range. Better to take the pot down with a bet, and if villain calls we are still okay with where we are at.

 

[thorwilliam]

And if villain checks behind and the turn is a spade that doesn't complete our straight flush? Or an Ace, King, Queen or Jack?

A spade and we need to check/fold our hand. Paint or an ace and we probably check/call, not knowing where we are in the hand. Giving villain an opportunity to check behind completely obscures his range. Better to take the pot down with a bet, and if villain calls we are still okay with where we are at.

The villain is described as aggressive, I would not worry too much about him checking. And if he checks he probably does not have a big spade, so a spade on the turn would most likely not hit him.

 

[Adam Crowley]

And if villain checks behind and the turn is a spade that doesn't complete our straight flush? Or an Ace, King, Queen or Jack?

A spade and we need to check/fold our hand. Paint or an ace and we probably check/call, not knowing where we are in the hand. Giving villain an opportunity to check behind completely obscures his range. Better to take the pot down with a bet, and if villain calls we are still okay with where we are at.

From the information posted about villain calling a 3b with 82s do we think that he would fold when we donk this flop if he has a spade (maybe even the 2s with this guy)

If he has a spade he's not checking. Also given the way Hero played preflop it's expected villain to have close to a 100% cbet frequency on the flop (not just this one in particular, that's most likely his plan going into the hand)

You range smashes this flop (small suited connectors and pocket pairs).

I vote for a check raise as well but put all of your chips in the middle this time.

There is a positive to donking here and that is that we take control of the pot and make it easier to play our hand. The problem is we weaken our range and its way easier for said lagtard to raise (shove) any hand here.

Think the hand through from villains perspective for a second. We believe we are an awesome player, we are aware of our table image, we obviously think about our hands a little bit, we try and outplay our opponents at every opportunity. We see three spades on the flop, and our opponent who has played trappy in the past donks a three spade flop. Villain is highly likely to shove here with his whole range except maybe the straigh flush

 

[Trihonda]

Not a fan of that play either. I think the only position I would consider limping with aces is in the sb if it is folded around to me and stacks are short and the bb aggressive.
I would raise pre and hope to take down the blinds or get a defend from the passive player in the bb and play a pot in position against them.

I don't have an issue with mixing up play. There are times where I limp with AK or even AA, if it looks like I won't be up against 7 players. I like to play tricky/trappy at times, and other times I'm ABC, and other times I'm loose as a goose. Anyone who plays the same all the time is exploitable.

I actually felted a guy a while back, who saw me bet out with AA a couple times, then we get into a pot where I have AA and he has AK, and a board (AKxxx). I shoved the river, and he tanks, explaining that the only hand that likely beats him is AA or KK, and that he's sure I don't have AA because I limped pre. He eventually calls. That effed with his mind the rest of the night (and the next few sessions we played together).

Granted, some plays are better than others, but it's not bad to mix it up once in a while.

 

[Adam Crowley]

There are circumstances and benefits to mixing up your play always. I assume Doc is a better player than me given his previous strategy posts, and I can't wait to hear his reasons for playing the hand this way.

 

[slisk250]

I think everyone remembers this player. I had a fun hand with him in the tourney and then had him at the same table in the circus game. Definite LAGtard and one you pick the right moment to battle stacks. Patience is a virtue

yeah...i had to wait until 20 minutes before we shut it down to finally get it all in against this guy. I enjoyed sitting between gear and yourself during that session. It ended well too!

/endjack

 

[thorwilliam]

I don't have an issue with mixing up play. There are times where I limp with AK or even AA, if it looks like I won't be up against 7 players. I like to play tricky/trappy at times, and other times I'm ABC, and other times I'm loose as a goose. Anyone who plays the same all the time is exploitable.

I actually felted a guy a while back, who saw me bet out with AA a couple times, then we get into a pot where I have AA and he has AK, and a board (AKxxx). I shoved the river, and he tanks, explaining that the only hand that likely beats him is AA or KK, and that he's sure I don't have AA because I limped pre. He eventually calls. That effed with his mind the rest of the night (and the next few sessions we played together).

Granted, some plays are better than others, but it's not bad to mix it up once in a while.

You would have felted him if you raised pre too.
Could you explain how you would exploit a player that don't open limp, but raises every pot he opens?

 

[Adam Crowley]

You would have felted him if you raised pre too.
Could you explain how you would exploit a player that don't open limp, but raises every pot he opens?

You can't explain how without defining raising frequency, position, post flop tendencies etc. etc.

Exploiting someone simply means taking advantages of their mistakes, so define the mistake, and work out your best counter strategy to that mistake. Generally when you maximally exploit someone, you open yourself up to being exploited even worse. But this is a really complex subject for another thread (probably best to search the internet there is heaps of material out there about it)

In relation specifically to this hand a good example is. If you limp call in early position with say 22 - 77 100% and AA, KK 10% of the time. Then fold to a cbet every time you don't flop a set with 22 - 77, and fold sometimes with AA, KK when you shouldn't (because you don't know your opponents cards). This is a pretty big mistake that is being exploited by the other player

 

[thorwilliam]

You can't explain how without defining raising frequency, position, post flop tendencies etc. etc.

Exploiting someone simply means taking advantages of their mistakes, so define the mistake, and work out your best counter strategy to that mistake. Generally when you maximally exploit someone, you open yourself up to being exploited even worse. But this is a really complex subject for another thread (probably best to search the internet there is heaps of material out there about it)

In relation specifically to this hand a good example is. If you limp call in early position with say 22 - 77 100% and AA, KK 10% of the time. Then fold to a cbet every time you don't flop a set with 22 - 77, and fold sometimes with AA, KK when you shouldn't (because you don't know your opponents cards). This is a pretty big mistake that is being exploited by the other player

I probably was not very clear, but my point was simply that you are easier to exploit in a nlh tournament if you split your hands in open limping and raising ranges pre flop. I took from Trihondas post that his opinion was the opposite, and was interested in what his reasoning was.

 

[Trihonda]

I probably was not very clear, but my point was simply that you are easier to exploit in a nlh tournament if you split your hands in open limping and raising ranges pre flop. I took from Trihondas post that his opinion was the opposite, and was interested in what his reasoning was.

I don't split (50/50) my open limping vs raising. I mix in a few instances of limping pre (under certain circumstances), so that I'm not predictable/exploitable. But Adam is correct, this is more complex issue for a different time.

/thread jack

 

[DrStrange]

Hero had his eyes firmly on the meta-game early in the tournament. Let's keep in mind that Hero isn't much good at tournament poker.

*** the end is near ***

Hero checks. Villain bets 2,500 into the 4,000 pot. Hero owes 2,500 after which the pot will be 9,000 and effective stacks will be 12,800.

Action on Hero, fold, call or raise? If raising, how much?

DrStrange

 

[atomiktoaster]

I'd probably call, but I have a feeling that raising is the better move here. Your draws still seem too good to fold. Looking forward to learning something.

 

[ushallnotraise]

As played, c/r to 6000, call a shove and jam any non spade turn.

 

[DrStrange]

Hero's hand is way ahead of villain's c-bet range. Hero's hand is likely ahead of villain's calling range.

Hero's pair plus draw has a big chunk of equity against almost everything. Hero is slaughtered by a made flush and a 2-1 dog vs a better pair with a spade draw. Other than those hands, Hero is ready for a fight.

 

[tripleflatbarrel]

Check shove

 

[moojersey]

Flat and pray it checks down hehe

 

[DrStrange]

*** Results ***

Hero raises to 7,500 or 5,000 on top. Villain gives a very short speech about Hero then mucks, saying he had jacks.

I'll post Hero's thinking when I get back later today.

 

[trever]

Late to the party...

Pre: with several lags behind you, you know that you aren't going to be able to have a limped pot. Better to raise yourself (1000-1200) to thin the herd and set your own price for seeing the flop.

Flop: let the lag be a lag, check. Dont bet out and let him fold for free.

Once the lag bets, you might as well put in a smallish raise. He isn't going to keep firing at this scary board with air, so you might as well hit him now. Your image should work in your favor here and he will credit you with a made hand

 

[DrStrange]

Here are some of Hero's thoughts:

Limping with aces early in the event - first off, the blinds are tiny and Hero's raise can't be very big or he just gets the blinds. Hero plays this hand backwards, hoping to hit lucky but more important get this to show down and make a memory for hero's table image. Soon enough, Hero is going to need all the fold equity he can get.

A middling pocket pair in bad position has the potential to be a problem hand. The SPR is terrible unless hero catching a set. Raising the pot and taking just the blinds isn't worth much yet. I don't want to waste Hero's table image for such a meager reward. Hero has a plan for the hand and it starts out with, "don't get overinvolved with the pocket pair till we see how things are shaping up". So hero limps and waits to see who does what.

Getting heads up with this villain was a good outcome. Hero could limp/three bet but this villain looks to be the kind that calls again putting Hero in that OOP situation post flop he wants to avoid. So hero decides to flat the raise and plan on a flop check/raise steal. I wouldn't have a problem with a suggestion to play the hand like pocket aces which starts with the preflop check raise.

The flop is a lot better than hero expected, good enough that Hero considers changing the plan. But a big chunk of hero's equity is drawing, and a 4-flush or 4-straight is an action killer. So the flop is the time to spring a trap.

Hero goes for the check raise because this villain is the c-beting type and I know villain has a bad read on Hero that makes him even more likely to c-bet bluff.

The hand played out as expected. Villain likely had air or maybe a pair without a spade redraw. Best thing is that Hero got a nice boost to his stack without taking undue risks.

 

[Adam Crowley]

The hand played out well but I feel there are some results orientated thinking here. If the flop was JT4r and villain cbets (are out still c/r). Limping on some tables is plain bad and on others is fine (because some people think about ranges and others don't) given that this guy called the 3b IP win the 82s I think I would have used you table image to take no risk and c/r pre, but make it big and pot commit yourself or shove altogether. Sure you can run into a hand here but that's poker.

If you were in position obviously I think flattign and playing position is the way to go.

 

[David O]

Here are some of Hero's thoughts:

Limping with aces early in the event - first off, the blinds are tiny and Hero's raise can't be very big or he just gets the blinds. Hero plays this hand backwards, hoping to hit lucky but more important get this to show down and make a memory for hero's table image. Soon enough, Hero is going to need all the fold equity he can get.

A middling pocket pair in bad position has the potential to be a problem hand. The SPR is terrible unless hero catching a set. Raising the pot and taking just the blinds isn't worth much yet. I don't want to waste Hero's table image for such a meager reward. Hero has a plan for the hand and it starts out with, "don't get overinvolved with the pocket pair till we see how things are shaping up". So hero limps and waits to see who does what.

Getting heads up with this villain was a good outcome. Hero could limp/three bet but this villain looks to be the kind that calls again putting Hero in that OOP situation post flop he wants to avoid. So hero decides to flat the raise and plan on a flop check/raise steal. I wouldn't have a problem with a suggestion to play the hand like pocket aces which starts with the preflop check raise.

The flop is a lot better than hero expected, good enough that Hero considers changing the plan. But a big chunk of hero's equity is drawing, and a 4-flush or 4-straight is an action killer. So the flop is the time to spring a trap.

Hero goes for the check raise because this villain is the c-beting type and I know villain has a bad read on Hero that makes him even more likely to c-bet bluff.

The hand played out as expected. Villain likely had air or maybe a pair without a spade redraw. Best thing is that Hero got a nice boost to his stack without taking undue risks.

I had a hand very similar to this that I limped a mediocre starting hand to be raised by the same villain. I ended up pretty much the same way. I called his bet and and raised a larger than pot size bet on the river with two pair. He tanked and ended up folding hand which he said was a set.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Yeah there must be more flops favourable for a c/r then not vs this guy. He just doesn't hit the board very often

Edit: Strong