Pre-flop float in position turns interesting (2 Viewers)

[bergs]

I'm at Foxwoods in a pretty good 1/2 NLH game with IBetOnAnything. It's Sunday and we finally found a table that isn't full of octogenarian nitballs who take walks every 15 minutes to idly earn points.

I have $600 behind and am OTB. UTG is an older tight player with $300, and MP is a very deliberate fairly TAG player who covers me. My table image is pretty good - LAG but competent.

I'm dealt 92ss. UTG makes it $15 and MP makes is $35. Folds around to me, blinds are yet to act.

I decide to call here and after thinking about it for 10 seconds, UTG flats too.

Flop ($108): Qs-8s-2d

UTG leads for $30 and MP thinks about it for 10 seconds and flats. I call. (Interested if anyone raises here for any reason).

UTG leading was interesting. Pretty sure he has at least a big Q. He's not betting draws and he's not bluffing OOP into 2 looser players. Would've expected a bigger bet if he has a set with the flush draw out there on the flop and 2 pair is unlikely given his tightness, preflop play, and board texture.

I have a wide range for MP but won't share yet in case people have strong opinions.

Rest of the hand is where it gets interesting.

Turn ($208): Qs-8s-2d-2c

Both players check to me. What's my action?

 

[Trihonda]

Strange that they check... If UTG has a big Q, then I'd think he'd continue to fire away...

I think I'm firing at this hand. Given the action, and player descriptions, I'd slide a barrel of reds across the betting line (~1/2 pot). I guess my bet sizing really would depend on the table normals...

 

[Rhodeman77]

I would prefer a raise on the flop. You have a ton of equity but not much show down value if you don't improve. That combination is one of the best reasons to bet to maximize your fold equity.

As played I am betting the turn and puking when the check raise comes in from the full house that just hit.

 

[jbutler]

I'd have raised to $230 on the flop. As played, bet $80.

 

[bergs]

Everyone seems to be in the same camp so we'll move on.

Turn ($208): Qs-8s-2d-2c

I bet $100. UTG thinks about for 20-30 seconds (seemed way longer than it actually was in retrospect). He's eyeballing MP pretty hard. MP is sitting there like a stone.

UTG finally calls. MP calls pretty quickly.

Questions:

1) Do we want a spade to drop on the river?
2) What cards are we dreading?
3) Any other cards other than 2 or 9 really good for us?
4) What's MP's range?

We'll get on to the river after some replies roll in.

 

[kk405]

If I call 92s OTB, I am always raising/getting it in when I flop a pair and flush draw.

 

[bergs]

Strange that they check... If UTG has a big Q, then I'd think he'd continue to fire away...

I think I'm firing at this hand. Given the action, and player descriptions, I'd slide a barrel of reds across the betting line (~1/2 pot). I guess my bet sizing really would depend on the table normals...

UTG had played a hand earlier in this orbit with AK on a dry K-high board pretty similarly.

Pretty sure at this point that UTG has AQ or AKss, with a strong leaning to AQ. He only has $140ish left after he flats the $100 on the turn. I think he sticks the rest in with AKss and tries to isolate. AQ and he's trying to get to showdown.

MP is the interesting part of this band. What's this guy on?

 

[kk405]

Everyone seems to be in the same camp so we'll move on.

Turn ($208): Qs-8s-2d-2c

I bet $100. UTG thinks about for 20-30 seconds (seemed way longer than it actually was in retrospect). He's eyeballing MP pretty hard. MP is sitting there like a stone.

UTG finally calls. MP calls pretty quickly.

Questions:

1) Do we want a spade to drop on the river?
2) What cards are we dreading?
3) Any other cards other than 2 or 9 really good for us?
4) What's MP's range?

We'll get on to the river after some replies roll in.

This is precisely why I want to get it in on the flop, as I don't have to deal with these 'difficult' questions. I am folding to any large bet on the river if a spade or another queen drops, but given the stack sizes, I am unlikely to fold to any bet. I am a POW.

 

[bergs]

If I call 92s OTB, I am always raising/getting it in when I flop a pair and flush draw.

Fair point. I think I spring more leaks than a 49 year old rowboat in this hand (and that's after flatting a 3bet with 92).

EDIT: my thinking at the time (and I'm not sure it's incorrect) is that I have bottom pair and a pretty meh flush draw with the 9s. I don't want to go crazy on the flop - maybe I should have stuffed the flop, but there are a ton of turn cards that I can easily get away from. Betting the flop here feels like spew to me.

 

[kk405]

Fair point. I think I spring more leaks than a 49 year old rowboat in this hand (and that's after flatting a 3bet with 92).

TBH, I like the flat OTB. I typically do the same with hands that I am unlikely to be sharing cards with UTG and early position raisers, such as 104s, 105s, 93s, 82s, etc. It's not about the value of the hand specifically, but the position, and I can take away a lot of pots by betting when they check.

But, when I hit an absolute gin flop like this, I am typically getting it in, even for 200BB each.

 

[bergs]

TBH, I like the flat OTB. I typically do the same with hands that I am unlikely to be sharing cards with UTG and early position raisers, such as 104s, 105s, 93s, 82s, etc. It's not about the value of the hand specifically, but the position, and I can take away a lot of pots by betting when they check.

But, when I hit an absolute gin flop like this, I am typically getting it in, even for 200BB each.

Even with bottom pair and a pretty meh flush draw when you're pretty sure that UTG has AQ and is sticky?

 

[Rhodeman77]

I range UTG as a top pair type hand as well. AQ, KQ.

MP is the the hand that could have the combo draw J10ss, KJss. But since you hold the 9s you block a lot of the potential combo draw hands that he could have like 10 9ss and J9ss. Which means he will have a few more strong hangs like 88 in his range.

Other than QQ and 88 you are crushing this hand. You don't want another S at all. Any card 7 or lower that isn't a spade is good. Even an 8 is probably safe. An A or K is not bad either as neither completes a straight.

 

[kk405]

I

UTG had played a hand earlier in this orbit with AK on a dry K-high board pretty similarly.

Pretty sure at this point that UTG has AQ or AKss, with a strong leaning to AQ. He only has $140ish left after he flats the $100 on the turn. I think he sticks the rest in with AKss and tries to isolate. AQ and he's trying to get to showdown.

MP is the interesting part of this band. What's this guy on?

UTG is likely to have AA, KK, or a big queen (AQ, AK). MP is more likely to have a smaller Q 9KQ, QJ, Q10, and obviously flush draws).

 

[kk405]

Even with bottom pair and a pretty meh flush draw when you're pretty sure that UTG has AQ and is sticky?

ESPECIALLY with bottom pair and flush draw. I prefer to have bottom pair and FD than top pair and FD. And if I think he has AQ, or even AA/KK, I would get in my money even faster than he can say 'rebuy'.

Obviously the only hands that I am really worried about are flopped sets, but if they played them this tricky, I pay them off or hope to bink the last deuce in the deck

 

[bergs]

UTG is likely to have AA, KK, or a big queen (AQ, AK). MP is more likely to have a smaller Q 9KQ, QJ, Q10, and obviously flush draws).

AA or KK and he doesn't flat 3-handed when he's last to act and facing a 3bet. This guy is super easy to range in big action pots - he's surprised nobody in his few orbits thus far. Could be wrong but it would be a surprise that would get the table talking.

I'm not the only one that thinks this. Bad beat whining middle aged reg next to me is whispering to me that UTG has AQ and that MP was going to fold to my $100 turn bet. I wish he'd shut up.

 

[bergs]

ESPECIALLY with bottom pair and flush draw. I prefer to have bottom pair and FD than top pair and FD. And if I think he has AQ, or even AA/KK, I would get in my money even faster than he can say 'rebuy'.

Why would you prefer BP and flush draw instead of TP and flush draw?

 

[DrStrange]

Hero is barely better than 50/50 vs AQ on the flop. Seems like an excellent place to put the table to a test.

I hate the preflop. We have an older tight player making a $15 UTG raise. Followed by a TAG making barely more than a min-raise 3-bet. Now it is Hero's chance to put money in the pot with a bottom 25% hand, but with position. I have a host of concerns, I'll list three of them:

It is entirely possible that UTG is going to jam all in after Hero calls. Now Hero can fold and burn his $35 or he can call as a huge dog.

UTG isn't likely to fold, but he might call with a big ace type of hand. So now we have a pot with a SPR less than three vs UTG and less than six vs MP. It is very difficult to outplay villains, even with position, when the SPR is low and Hero is playing rags. Not impossible, but tough to do. Making matters worse, hero thinks one or both villains are sticky.

There aren't many flops Hero is going to like so we have to assume that Hero's plan is either a) hope for a ragged flop, checks from both villains allowing Hero to try a steal or b) Hero floats a c-bet hoping that he can steal the pot on the turn or c) Hero flops lucky and extracts value.

I can fully appreciate the value of LAG play on the button, I just think this is the wrong situation to do it.

 

[kk405]

I don't disagree with @DrStrange. I do think you need to change your game a little from time to time, play looser, and more erratic, just to inject some elements of aggression and maybe even 'fun' into your game (y) :thumbsup:

 

[Trihonda]

I think i wouldn't be completely scared of a river spade. If one peels off, your hand actually improves. Real question is whether that spade helped anyone else's hand improve (then, you're likely behind). Do we really put our villains on a spade draw? I think the safer bet is no on the river, but are we folding if we make our flush?

I think our hand is likely disguised somewhat. The turn check makes me doubt anyone boated up. If MP boated, would he likely bet once the original raiser checks to him? Instead, he checks back.

You lead out in position, get two callers. This screams AQ KQ type hands. Possibly big pocket pairs... maybe draws?

Ok, hope for low brick cards on the river. If checked to again, jam? If you get checked to, you're likely way ahead and not getting a call...

If the river is a brick, I'm calling ANY bet. If a peels off, I'm going to be studying MP for reads. This is an interesting spot.

 

[iBetOnEverything]

IBetOnAnything

SMH

MP was so uninteresting I can't even remember what he looked like, never mind any hands he played. UTG was the younger hoodie kid?

 

[courage]

Even drrrr would fold pre, or 4bet.
Flat flop seems good to me. I'm not that thrilled if a spade hits given action.
Betting $110 on turn.

 

[bergs]

I think our hand is likely disguised somewhat. The turn check makes me doubt anyone boated up. If MP boated, would he likely bet once the original raiser checks to him? Instead, he checks back.

I'm also ruling out a boat from MP here for the same reason.

 

[bergs]

Is the reason that bottom pair + flush draw > top pair + flush draw here because of these reasons:

1) combinatorically there are more cards that improve only my hand on the turn (deuces, nines)

2) my hand is well disguised so I can extract value

3) can get away from the hand easily on a brick turn and betting before I act in position

4) don't have kicker problems

Accurate?

 

[bergs]

Onward...

OTB Hero ($600): 92ss; competent LAG image
UTG ($300): XX; older tight and sticky
MP ($700): XX; middle aged TAG

Preflop:
- UTG opens for $15
- MP raises to $35
- Hero OTB calls $35
- Blinds fold
- UTG flats $35

Flop ($108): Qs-8s-2d
- UTG opens for $30
- MP calls $30
- Hero OTB calls $30

Turn ($198): Qs-8s-2d-2c
- UTG checks
- MP checks
- Hero OTB opens for $100
- UTG calls $100
- MP calls $100

River ($498): Qs-8s-2d-2c-Js
- UTG checks quickly
- MP cuts out $100 and tanks.
- MP cuts out another $100 and studies me
- After about 60 seconds, I ask UTG what he has behind (his arm is covering his chips and I'm trying to break MP's concentration a bit). UTG lifts his arm quietly.

I'm trying to figure out what my plan is for the hand. Assume UTG is going to call $100 and fold to anything bigger.

What do I do if MP:
- checks?
- bets $100?
- bets $200?
- bets $300?
- jams (unlikely)?

 

[jbutler]

Is the reason that bottom pair + flush draw > top pair + flush draw here because of these reasons:

1) combinatorically there are more cards that improve only my hand on the turn (deuces, nines)

2) my hand is well disguised so I can extract value

3) can get away from the hand easily on a brick turn and betting before I act in position

4) don't have kicker problems

Accurate?

Number 2 is closest to the reason imo.

When you go aggro with a pair and a flush draw your main goal is to take down the pot. Your secondary goal is, when called, to have good equity in addition to your bare flush draw. When you have top pair and a flush draw it's much less likely that your opponent is calling off with dry top pair and much more likely that he has a set or bottom two pair. The times when he has a set we hate it.

 

[jbutler]

Onward...

OTB Hero ($600): 92ss; competent LAG image
UTG ($300): XX; older tight and sticky
MP ($700): XX; middle aged TAG

Preflop:
- UTG opens for $15
- MP raises to $35
- Hero OTB calls $35
- Blinds fold
- UTG flats $35

Flop ($108): Qs-8s-2d
- UTG opens for $30
- MP calls $30
- Hero OTB calls $30

Turn ($198): Qs-8s-2d-2c
- UTG checks
- MP checks
- Hero OTB opens for $100
- UTG calls $100
- MP calls $100

River ($498): Qs-8s-2d-2c-Js
- UTG checks quickly
- MP cuts out $100 and tanks.
- MP cuts out another $100 and studies me
- After about 60 seconds, I ask UTG what he has behind (his arm is covering his chips and I'm trying to break MP's concentration a bit). UTG lifts his arm quietly.

I'm trying to figure out what my plan is for the hand. Assume UTG is going to call $100 and fold to anything bigger.

What do I do if MP:
- checks?
- bets $100?
- bets $200?
- bets $300?
- jams (unlikely)?

I think if MP is a deliberate TAG as described he's most often in the nutty part of his range here. After his turn call I would put him at something like 15% boat, 15% AA/KK, 70% nut or second nut flush draw. I'm probably calling up to around $100 and folding to something larger.

 

[bergs]

I think if MP is a deliberate TAG as described he's most often in the nutty part of his range here. After his turn call I would put him at something like 15% boat, 15% AA/KK, 70% nut or second nut flush draw.

Anyone have a different read on MP?

Butler: you're folding to any bet here then and checking behind?

 

[iBetOnEverything]

Anyone have a different read on MP?

Butler: you're folding to any bet here then and checking behind?

Tell me who MP was. I have 0 idea who he is. I don't remember anyone but the 3 seat having stacks besides us.

 

[Trihonda]

MP, maybe - A2 or maybe middle suited/connected spades? Not sure why he's tanking, unless to Hollywood you into a call of a big bet (made a bigger flush?). But if he checks, i'd consider a jam/pot. If he flushed up, and checks, it's because he's possibly concerned he's not ahead. If you put pressure on him, he might let it go. I don't put him on the boat, for reasons already discussed.

 

[bergs]

Tell me who MP was. I have 0 idea who he is. I don't remember anyone but the 3 seat having stacks besides us.

MP was the quiet guy on the corner in the 8 seat. Didn't talk. Was the big stack when we sat down, then he lost a little to the Asian guy to his left first orbit. Maybe late 30s. Skinny. Pretty nondescript, honestly.