Tourney Ruling - dead Button heads up (4 Viewers)

[Frogzilla]

Is a dead button heads up a thing?

Watching this clip from yesterdays TCHC tourney and I’m very surprised to see a dead button get awarded heads up, forcing the SB to play OOP post flop. The SB made what I thought was a compelling case “it’s heads up, there is no dead button” but was ruled down by the dealer, the floor…and both commentators were adamant that this hand should be a dead button. The card house tourney policy is to use WSOP rules but I don’t think that’s a thing in WSOP either

Ever seen this before?

Any experts able to confirm?

 

[FordPickup92]

@Seeking Alpha Social Club @BGinGA

 

[TheOffalo]

TDA 2019:

“34: Button in Heads-up
Heads-up, the small blind is the button, is dealt the last card, and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. Starting heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player has the big blind twice in a row.”

So looks like gray shirt was BTN, red shirt was SB, blue shirt was BB. Once red shirt busts, blue shirt cannot be BB again so grey shirt is, which puts the BTN at blue shirt.

So in the “dead button” hand, the blinds happen to be correct but does that mean BB had position since he was before the dead button? And then does he pay BB again the hand after? (I haven’t finished watching video.)

Edit: Just watched it past the first HU hand and the dealer does move the button to gray shirt, so no one pays the BB twice and no one skips a BB. So essentially it wasn’t really played as a dead button…?

 

[TheOffalo]

https://www.wsop.com/2021/2021_WSOP_Tournament_Rules.pdf:

“87. Button in Heads-Up Play: In heads-up play, the small blind is on the button and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. The last card is dealt to the button. When beginning heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure neither Participant has the big blind twice in a row.”

So TDA and WSOP are in agreement: just make sure no player pays BB twice in a row when going from 3 to 2 players and move the button if necessary.

 

[ArielVer18]

When going to heads-up play in a tournament, the big blind moves to the next available player. Give the other person the small blind and button. Why make it more complicated?

 

[Frogzilla]

Edit: Just watched it past the first HU hand and the dealer does move the button to gray shirt, so no one pays the BB twice and no one skips a BB. So essentially it wasn’t really played as a dead button…?

I’m almost certain the 1st hand HU played where Ilyas (BB) had position on Arun (D/SB) postflop. It’s not the worlds biggest advantage to have an extra hand IP but then again it’s a $7k payjump so its not nothing.

I say “almost certain” because the camera is automated on these streams (camera cuts based on action input) and the software thought positions were reversed (Ilyas OOP, Arun IP) and camera was jumping around like crazy as the tech tried to input backwards action into the software

 

[Seeking Alpha Social Club]

@Seeking Alpha Social Club @BGinGA

https://www.wsop.com/2021/2021_WSOP_Tournament_Rules.pdf:

“87. Button in Heads-Up Play: In heads-up play, the small blind is on the button and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. The last card is dealt to the button. When beginning heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure neither Participant has the big blind twice in a row.”

So TDA and WSOP are in agreement: just make sure no player pays BB twice in a row when going from 3 to 2 players and move the button if necessary.

++1 this ^^^

 

[CdnBeerLover]

TDA 2019:

“34: Button in Heads-up
Heads-up, the small blind is the button, is dealt the last card, and acts first pre-flop and last on all other betting rounds. Starting heads-up play, the button may need to be adjusted to ensure no player has the big blind twice in a row.”

So looks like gray shirt was BTN, red shirt was SB, blue shirt was BB. Once red shirt busts, blue shirt cannot be BB again so grey shirt is, which puts the BTN at blue shirt.

So in the “dead button” hand, the blinds happen to be correct but does that mean BB had position since he was before the dead button? And then does he pay BB again the hand after? (I haven’t finished watching video.)

Edit: Just watched it past the first HU hand and the dealer does move the button to gray shirt, so no one pays the BB twice and no one skips a BB. So essentially it wasn’t really played as a dead button…?

It is definitely confusing.

The only thing I can think of is that the first hand with 2 players wasn't considered officially heads-up as the button had not yet reached the guy in the blue shirt under the normal course of action. Had it been 4 handed when the player busted instead of 3 handed, it would have been a dead button....the button wouldn't have jumped a spot to the player in the small blind. In the same way, it didn't reach him in this scenario, either...the button was placed in the dead position of the player that had just busted.

On the next hand, the button reached the player in the blue shirt, but they were also the BB and were now heads-up. Since under heads-up you can't be the big blind and have the button, the button was moved to the guy in the grey sweater.

 

[BGinGA]

The only thing I can think of is that the first hand with 2 players wasn't considered officially heads-up

And that concept is both ridiculous and insane. Heads-up play is heads-up play -- when there are only two players remaining (doh). Both rule sets (TDA and WSOP) address heads-up play -- the big blind player is first determined and the other player is the small blind and button. There is no 'dead button' heads-up.

surprised to see a dead button get awarded heads up, forcing the SB to play OOP post flop. The SB made what I thought was a compelling case “it’s heads up, there is no dead button” but was ruled down by the dealer, the floor…and both commentators were adamant that this hand should be a dead button.

The dealer, the floor, and both commentators were adamant idiots. Per the rules, the button position is driven by the big blind position when heads-up -- even on the first hand.

The big blind is always posted in tournament play (and never twice in a row by the same player, under any circumstances other than possibly a table consolidation with seat redraw). If the button player busts 3-handed (normally due to be the next BB), then the big blind moves to his left (to the previous SB) and the other player is the small blind (because he can't be the BB twice in a row) and therefore also the button.

Even if two players go out simultaneously 4-handed, the big blind position moves normally (if possible), unless that action lands on the previous BB player. And the other remaining player becomes the SB and button.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Hmmm...interesting. From 2009

https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=37.0

This thread describes a similar but not-exactly-the-same situation with regards to an elimination (or eliminations) leading to heads-up. In the thread, there were two eliminations leading to heads-up. The key phrase I'm reading is "Since TDA rules play with a dead button, the button would freeze ...", which implies the heads-up rules are not immediately put into play. The dead button rule is applied following the sb and bb. On the subsequent hand, the button is then repositioned.

If that's the correct interpretation according to the TDA, it stays on the dead spot and the sb and bb follow the normal course of action. The button is then repositioned according to heads-up rules on the next hand.

 

[ArielVer18]

Hmmm...interesting. From 2009

https://www.pokertda.com/forum/index.php?topic=37.0

This thread describes a similar but not-exactly-the-same situation with regards to an elimination (or eliminations) leading to heads-up. In the thread, there were two eliminations leading to heads-up. The key phrase I'm reading is "Since TDA rules play with a dead button, the button would freeze ...", which implies the heads-up rules are not immediately put into play. The dead button rule is applied following the sb and bb. On the subsequent hand, the button is then repositioned.

If that's the correct interpretation according to the TDA, it stays on the dead spot and the sb and bb follow the normal course of action. The button is then repositioned according to heads-up rules on the next hand.

She meant "since TDA rules play with a dead button (as opposed to a moving button)." If there are four players left and both players in the blinds are knocked out simultaneously, the old UTG player posts the big blind for the new hand and the other player gets the button and posts the small blind.

Here's a blast from the past with diagrams: https://homepokertourney.org/button.htm

 

[CdnBeerLover]

She meant "since TDA rules play with a dead button (as opposed to a moving button)." If there are four players left and both players in the blinds are knocked out simultaneously, the old UTG player posts the big blind for the new hand and the other player gets the button and posts the small blind.

Here's a blast from the past with diagrams: https://homepokertourney.org/button.htm

Fair enough. I've also made a mental note not to try to interpret threads on PokerTDA while drinking.

 

[Frogzilla]

And that concept is both ridiculous and insane. Heads-up play is heads-up play -- when there are only two players remaining (doh). Both rule sets (TDA and WSOP) address heads-up play -- the big blind player is first determined and the other player is the small blind and button. There is no 'dead button' heads-up.


The dealer, the floor, and both commentators were adamant idiots. Per the rules, the button position is driven by the big blind position when heads-up -- even on the first hand.

The big blind is always posted in tournament play (and never twice in a row by the same player, under any circumstances other than possibly a table consolidation with seat redraw). If the button player busts 3-handed (normally due to be the next BB), then the big blind moves to his left (to the previous SB) and the other player is the small blind (because he can't be the BB twice in a row) and therefore also the button.

Even if two players go out simultaneously 4-handed, the big blind position moves normally (if possible), unless that action lands on the previous BB player. And the other remaining player becomes the SB and button.

Yep thanks…rules are clear here…obviously SB gets the button

What can the SB do besides make a case to the dealer, call the floor/TD, then what?

Also, rewatching, the floor rules in favor of the SB “So basically the SB will be the button”, the dealer overrules the floor, with authority, then the floor patiently waits and says “but the SB is always the button”, the dealer overrules again saying “true but only starting next hand”. I didn’t recognize the floor, maybe he’s new or just filling in for the guy who usually runs the Saturday tourney (that guy is top notch btw) and that’s why this dealer wasn’t respecting him

 

[BGinGA]

What can the SB do besides make a case to the dealer, call the floor/TD, then what?

Well, based on this:

rewatching, the floor rules in favor of the SB “So basically the SB will be the button”, the dealer overrules the floor, with authority, then the floor patiently waits and says “but the SB is always the button”, the dealer overrules again saying “true but only starting next hand”.

I'd tell the dealer to STFU, since the floor has final say with his ruling in every casino I know. Hearing it direct from the Tournament Director or Casino Manager would be my next request.

The dealer, the floor, and both commentators were adamant idiots.

I modify the above statement to apply to just the dealer and the two commentators. The floor was correct, just had no balls to put the dealer in his place.

 

[TheJack]

Maybe the answer is in other threads, but why in hu play dealer is sb?

 

[Frogzilla]

Maybe the answer is in other threads, but why in hu play dealer is sb?

Been that way for a long time so now it’s just part of the game. Giving BB position preflop does make the game a little fairer so sometimes that’s given as the reason but hard to say what the original rationale was

 

[Poker Zombie]

We always tell our new players to follow the Big Blind. You can have a dead small blind and a dead button, but there is always big blind.

Nothing is certain, except death and taxes.

She meant "since TDA rules play with a dead button (as opposed to a moving button)." If there are four players left and both players in the blinds are knocked out simultaneously, the old UTG player posts the big blind for the new hand and the other player gets the button and posts the small blind.

Here's a blast from the past with diagrams: https://homepokertourney.org/button.htm

I didn't know that someone had rescued HPT. Thanks for pointing that out - it was my gateway into the world of chipping.

 

[Jake14mw]

Yes, looking at that Homepokertourney site brings back great memories!

 

[Gear]

Just found this thread -- thank you!! I happened to catch the tail end of that stream, and also wondered WTF?? when heads-up play started.