SB special (1 Viewer)

[manamongkids]

7 Handed in a 1/2 NLHE game

UTG+1 opens to $14 - standard raising size at this table

Hijack calls $14

Cut-off calls $14

Button calls $14

I am in the SB with (sitting on $185)

What do you do here? Flat, fold, 3bet?

 

[jbutler]

Fold >>> flat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> raise

 

[Mental Nomad]

^^ agree ^^

Out of position, your implied odds aren't nearly as high as most people think.

 

[DrStrange]

Almost agree. Fold >>>>>>>>>>>> flat >>> raise

Hero is almost in a fold or jam situation. When the preflop raise is about 10% of your starting stack there are not many hands that justify a flat. Hero needs to have a short stack mentality in these conditions if someone else gets in the first raise.

 

[manamongkids]

I elect to just call.

I understand that me electing to call will allow the BB to call with 75%+ more of their hands as well.

6 ways to the flop (pot $84)

Flop is

You are first to act, check or bet. If betting, how much? (sitting on $171)

 

[jbutler]

Check >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet.

But I'm reminded of limon's line from this thread:

I love all of the posts that say disregard everthing I did before I got check raised all in on the river and just tell me what to do now. Its like, “hey Dad its me billy and im in jail. Don’t ask me why I got drunk (standard). Don’t ask me why I drove (yawn). Don’t ask me how my car ended up in a 7-11 (meh). Just tell me how to keep from getting buttfuqqed tonight.

 

[krafticus]

As played, I probably would lead out for $50, and be preparred to jam and C/R. If everyone flats, I am jamming any turn card.

Mark

 

[mummel]

I would have folded preflop, but thats a nice flop. So at this point just call. How many outs is that? 8 clubs + 4 twos + 3 ace overcards (I'm not good at calculating this stuff . So 15 outs, 60% chance to make your hand right?

I think someone is going to bet ~$50 into this pot with high pocket pairs Call, but its going to get dicey when they hit their set

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

Preflop...if you were super deep, those are pretty good cards to squeeze three-bet with. Since you're not, a call or fold are both decent options. As played, I would Czech Jam the flop.

 

[manamongkids]

I check

BB Check

UTG+1 (initial raiser) bets $40 (he started the hand with $300ish)

folds around to me.

I raise to $135, committing myself to the hand no matter what happens

He jams for my remaining $36.

$426 pot.

He turns over

turn brick, river brick

GG

 

[upNdown]

I check

BB Check

UTG+1 (initial raiser) bets $40 (he started the hand with $300ish)

folds around to me.

I raise to $135, committing myself to the hand no matter what happens

He jams for my remaining $36.

$426 pot.

He turns over

turn brick, river brick

GG

I'll take an unpaired flop with a nut flush draw and a straight draw every day of the week.

 

[DrStrange]

I like the check-jam line. Hero has great equity and some fold equity with a line this like.

Too bad it didn't work out, but Hero needs to accept there is going to be a lot of variation even though he scored well on expected value post flop. Keeping in mind that the preflop call was less than optimal.

Hero has ~54% equity vs all overpairs aside from aces and Hero has a blocker to pocket aces, he has 47% equity vs AA, so lets give hero 53% equity it total when called. Hero puts $171 into the pot and expects to win 53% of $426 or $226. That is a fine +$55 expected value by itself. Plus there was some chance Villain is c-betting ace high or worse and folds giving Hero a $124 pot uncontested.

There is hardly a more profitable play for Hero to make in a $1/$2 game - +$55 direct EV plus something like 30% fold equity [ wild guess there ] to win $124 (that's worth $37) $88 average profit on a single street is about as good as it gets.

 

[manamongkids]

I like the check-jam line. Hero has great equity and some fold equity with a line this like.

Too bad it didn't work out, but Hero needs to accept there is going to be a lot of variation even though he scored well on expected value post flop. Keeping in mind that the preflop call was less than optimal.

Hero has ~54% equity vs all overpairs aside from aces and Hero has a blocker to pocket aces, he has 47% equity vs AA, so lets give hero 53% equity it total when called. Hero puts $171 into the pot and expects to win 53% of $426 or $226. That is a fine +$55 expected value by itself. Plus there was some chance Villain is c-betting ace high or worse and folds giving Hero a $124 pot uncontested.

There is hardly a more profitable play for Hero to make in a $1/$2 game - +$55 direct EV plus something like 30% fold equity [ wild guess there ] to win $124 (that's worth $37) $88 average profit on a single street is about as good as it gets.

I would agree with your assessment, but does the line look too obvious? Whereas all overpairs are likely to call vs this exact hand. I guess I could also have AcKc Ac10c or AcJc and that gives me 8-10% less equity because I don't have the wheel outs

 

[DrStrange]

Hero doesn't care about "obvious". If villain folds hero collects $124. If villain calls, hero wins $55 on average. Note that villain is better off calling than folding due to the dead money in the pot.

What is important is that Hero needs to take this line with a range of hands not just the monster draws. An ace-rag flush draw is good enough so long as there is a chance villain is c-betting with air. Sets too - villains have to worry that they are drawing to two outs if they call since we know hero is often best served when villain folds his overpair except when hero has a set.

Yes, Hero has less equity without the wheel draw and only the flush draw. But the play is still +EV (with the fold equity) and it helps get villain to call big bets when hero has him under the hammer.

 

[onerand]

Preflop...if you were super deep, those are pretty good cards to squeeze three-bet with. Since you're not, a call or fold are both decent options. As played, I would Czech Jam the flop.

This, except don't fold preflop, and it is a great squeeze spot if UTG has a wide enough range.

And I remember that Llimon quote.

 

[Mental Nomad]

I would agree with your assessment, but does the line look too obvious?

It's obvious in retrospect, and then, only if they call.

If seen failing the semi-bluff raise, great... you can now consider using this whenever there's a viable threat of a draw, but when, for example, you flop a set or two pair, and someone bets after you with a likely loser.

 

[Mark Sieczka]

7 Handed in a 1/2 NLHE game

UTG+1 opens to $14 - standard raising size at this table

Hijack calls $14

Cut-off calls $14

Button calls $14

I am in the SB with (sitting on $185)

What do you do here? Flat, fold, 3bet?

Agreed with the general consensus. Position matters here. I would have folded.

 

[manamongkids]

Agreed with the general consensus. Position matters here. I would have folded.

youre folding a suited Ace where by the time the BB almost always calls, youre getting 6/1 odds? I find that hard to believe for most people

 

[Mental Nomad]

youre folding a suited Ace where by the time the BB almost always calls, youre getting 6/1 odds? I find that hard to believe for most people

Out of position, you have less control - you're unlikely to maximize your profit if you make, nor minimize your loss when you don't.

Your most common flop "hits" will be pair of treys, ace kicker, and pair of aces, crap kicker. Neither are very playable in a field of six, especially out of position. (Especially out of position.)

In the event you hit a four-flush that doesn't go your way, the reverse-implied odds are huge; you're very likely to call down flop and turn bets from someone who has a winner. If you don't get it all in on the flop, and the turn doesn't help you, again, very likely to call a turn bet from a winner.

Meanwhile, the implied odds if you hit your flush - or if you hit a four-flush that comes in - are not as great as they might be. If you flop the flush, there's a good chance you can't get a call. If you flop a flush draw, and try the check-raise, it may go around for free - in which case, if you hit the flush on the turn and bet, you may get no calls. Etc.

Being out of position decreases your implied odds and increases your reverse-implied odds.

ON TOP OF ALL THAT, after calling $14 to get in to a likely $84 pot, you'll have $171 left... that barely breaks a 2:1 stack to pot ratio (2.03). A long-odds hand wants long money behind in order to be able to profit if the longshot comes in. Two to one on the pot at the beginning of the flop is the opposite of long money.

This also means that on the flop, when you checked and villain bet $40, the pot became $124... you needed to jam to maximize your fold equity. Your raise to $135 (which is only bet +$95) was inviting a call! From villain's perspective, pot was $84 + $40 + $135 = $259, and it was only $95 more to call with any unsuited overpair or even top pair. Since villain had a good club and/or felt they had a read on you, villain opted to jam. And, like you said, the $135 bet was already committing you to the hand. You might as well have jammed, yourself, and had the best possible chance of taking down the $84 pot, uncontested.

(Side note, pet peeve: villain did not jam for your remaining $36. Villain jammed. You called your remaining $36.)

 

[manamongkids]

Out of position, you have less control - you're unlikely to maximize your profit if you make, nor minimize your loss when you don't.

Your most common flop "hits" will be pair of treys, ace kicker, and pair of aces, crap kicker. Neither are very playable in a field of six, especially out of position. (Especially out of position.)

In the event you hit a four-flush that doesn't go your way, the reverse-implied odds are huge; you're very likely to call down flop and turn bets from someone who has a winner. If you don't get it all in on the flop, and the turn doesn't help you, again, very likely to call a turn bet from a winner.

Meanwhile, the implied odds if you hit your flush - or if you hit a four-flush that comes in - are not as great as they might be. If you flop the flush, there's a good chance you can't get a call. If you flop a flush draw, and try the check-raise, it may go around for free - in which case, if you hit the flush on the turn and bet, you may get no calls. Etc.

Being out of position decreases your implied odds and increases your reverse-implied odds.

ON TOP OF ALL THAT, after calling $14 to get in to a likely $84 pot, you'll have $171 left... that barely breaks a 2:1 stack to pot ratio (2.03). A long-odds hand wants long money behind in order to be able to profit if the longshot comes in. Two to one on the pot at the beginning of the flop is the opposite of long money.

This also means that on the flop, when you checked and villain bet $40, the pot became $124... you needed to jam to maximize your fold equity. Your raise to $135 (which is only bet +$95) was inviting a call! From villain's perspective, pot was $84 + $40 + $135 = $259, and it was only $95 more to call with any unsuited overpair or even top pair. Since villain had a good club and/or felt they had a read on you, villain opted to jam. And, like you said, the $135 bet was already committing you to the hand. You might as well have jammed, yourself, and had the best possible chance of taking down the $84 pot, uncontested.

(Side note, pet peeve: villain did not jam for your remaining $36. Villain jammed. You called your remaining $36.)

im not saying youre incorrect with anything stated above. Im saying my opinion is that I would believe 75%> of people would be calling with this exact hand in this exact scenarion

 

[Mental Nomad]

im not saying youre incorrect with anything stated above. Im saying my opinion is that I would believe 75%> of people would be calling with this exact hand in this exact scenarion

75% plus you.

Come over, any time!

(Also, the pool of people commenting on a poker forum is different than the pool of people at a home game. If you expected the same here as there, you wouldn't be asking for advice.)

 

[riotouslevity]

It's not clear what the flop c/raise is trying to accomplish. If you want everyone to fold... then should have full jammed there. Trying to bet for value on the come doesn't seem necessary if your at a table that a $14 raise gets 4 callers. You have all the opportunity you need to get money when you have it. Why push a donkey when he'll pull you along..

While I agree with folding to begin with for similar reasons, I'd be more inclined to call the flop and ride it out with so many outs.

 

[MatB]

youre folding a suited Ace where by the time the BB almost always calls, youre getting 6/1 odds? I find that hard to believe for most people

What kind of Donkey shoves on a flush draw?

 

[MatB]

But seriously.... I would.

And even more serious. I think only maybe an AK or a made set is calling your bet after the flop, And even then you have great chance of catching a club if they do call. But your bet might get a nit to lay down a big hand with 2 clubs out there.

 

[MatB]

LOL.. i didn't even read up to the part where they show QQ. then brick brick,...oh dear NHGG.

 

[DrStrange]

The way to become a winning poker player is to avoid the mistakes that most other players make. As noted by others, you make money in poker by exploiting other people's mistakes and by either not making as many mistakes or by limiting the damage from your errors.

I agree that many, perhaps most players would call that raise with the suited ace. None-the-less, it is a mistake to do so both due to bad position and Hero's relatively short stack relative to the bet size. (I wouldn't have called the bet from the button due to the stack sizes.)

Decisions should be judged using math and poker logic, not based on how many other people would make the same decision. The blunt truth is the games you most want to play in are the ones where everyone makes lots of mistakes. You don't want to copy those mistakes because everyone else is doing so.

Perhaps there hasn't been an adequate explanation for why a number of us see the preflop call as an error. Please say something or ask questions if a more detailed explanation would be helpful -=- DrStrange

 

[Adam Crowley]

Another thing to note about why this is a bad hand to call with out of position (I apologise is mental said this already I read the start of his post agreed with it and moved on)

In general it is an advantage calling OOP with a lower stack to pot ratio because when you flop well you can get it in easily and you can't risk making costly mistakes on later streets.

With A3s most of the flops that hit your hand will see you making massive mistakes postlfop. You can't ever feel good stacking off with top pair and if you fold you always feel like your folding too much (both of these are true in almost all cases).